Final Fantasy 7 Remake, Pt. 2 Rebirth

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Knighto

That's precisely the point. There was no way they could spoil the endgame twist, so I wouldn't put the blame on them, either.

Or they simply could've written it more naturally by having Cloud & Aerith interact more than just one bloody day before the heartfelt not-confession. Instead of going full Kingdom Heart with it, why not do a better job of making the protags act more human?

Btw, I don't know why you feel the need to repeatedly reply me with tangential walls of text when the point that I made is so simple.

[Homura7]

Thing is, in FF7 they also spent only one day (and less time, unlike in FF7R, where Aeris makes sure to spend as much time with Cloud as she can, up to taking the long route to Sector 6) before Aeris was taken to Shinra. Besides, you know as well as me what would have happened if they had tried to deviate from the course.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Knighto

Besides, you know as well as me what would have happened if they had tried to deviate from the course.

You mean the Plot-Ghosts? Then don't use them. Use different plot. If they can improve & expand Biggs, Wedge & Jessie and make them better characters than their FF7-selves, there's no reason for them to keep the CloudxAerith interaction as lacking as the original FF7 before the not-confession in Remake.

Again, better writing can fix this.

[Homura7]

Lacking? You're kidding, right.

Compared to the original game their interactions are so wholesome. The part where they pick up flowers, the aftermath of the encounter with the hooded clone, the Language of the Flowers scene, the build up to the high-five, the scene at the park with Midnight Rendezvous playing in the background, the Honeybee Inn dance which Cloud only agrees to because of Aeris, and literally every interaction where the merc. shows his overprotective behavior towards her.

Of course, in FF7 it made sense how lacking it was, they had just met. Here in FF7R...

Spoiler for spoiler:

One of them remembers her whole life and has to keep a facade that many times she fails at hiding.

The love confession is one fine example. I bet this is what Aeris always wanted to tell Cloud and couldn't back then.

Again, I don't think newcomers who didn't play FF7 should be playing FF7R without doing the former first.

But at the same time there was absolutely no way the devs could spoil the huge twist at the end.

So I don't think anyone is to blame.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Knighto

Lacking? Compared to the original game their interactions are so wholesome.

Yeah, for a glorious 24 hours before a love confession .

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah, for a glorious 24 hours before a love confession .

They was no love confession man. Cloud shows signs of having attraction towards her but he's not at the point where he's in love with her yet. I'm sure the sequels will expand on their relationship more

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Speaking of the game, I just realized that...

Spoiler for Plot Point:

...the time that Cloud spent from the moment he was woken up by Aerith in the church until she got taken by Tseng was only around 24 hours. That's why it kinda felt weird for me when dream-Aerith talked to Cloud as if they've spent a great deal of time together enough for the not-love confession under the stars to happen . Man, even anime rarely go that fast with relationships unless it's part of the premise .

You really missed the mark of that scene huh.

Aerith despite having a happy facade is actually a very lonely girl who feels the burden of her heritage weighing her down. Meeting Cloud and spending time with him allowed her to let go of her worries for a bit. The Language of Flowers scene hinted on this when she calls herself a quitter but she worked her butt for that day because it's special and why she cherishes her time spent with him. Obviously that flew over Cloud's head on what she meant.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then blame SE's marketing, not the newcomers. Newcomers only reacted based on the marketing that they received from SE.

The "not-love confession after only 1 day" was pretty sudden for some newcomers and they're justified in thinking so at this point where we're still waiting for FF7R sequel that will explain things further.

Nomura and the other devs were well aware on how new players could view that scene without the context of the OG story and they did debate if they should include that scene or not but ultimately decided to include it in because they felt it was an important scene not to.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Or they simply could've written it more naturally by having Cloud & Aerith interact more than just one bloody day before the heartfelt not-confession. Instead of going full Kingdom Heart with it, why not do a better job of making the protags act more human?

Btw, I don't know why you feel the need to repeatedly reply me with tangential walls of text when the point that I made is so simple.

They already expanded their interactions in the Remake. The OG had just a few scenes of them traveling together before she was taken by Shinra.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by NAJ P. Jackson

You really missed the Mark of that scene huh.....(so on & so forth)

Yeah no. I know that it's not a blatant confession (I did say "not-love confession" in my first comment, right?). But it's still a dialogue & gesture of great intimacy comparable to that of lovers or romantically intertwined pair of individuals. Aerith talked & acted to utmost complete confidence that Cloud was already on the verge of falling for her and Cloud himself didn't even try to deny her love-claim. Even though it's not a blatant confession in the most traditional sense, that scene is pretty much a confirmation of the feelings of at least one of them (Cloud). And for me, that's pretty sudden for a timespan of 24 hours of getting to know one another.

If you're okay with that then you do you. It's not like I'm challenging those who like their relationship. I just express the things that I (+ some other newbies) find weird in that scene.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by Knighto

Again, I don't think newcomers who didn't play FF7 should be playing FF7R without doing the former first.

Ah, and so we have the crux of the argument. I would argue that you SHOULDN'T need to play the original first- anything that would reference the original without any explanation should be left as fanservice or Easter eggs. A remake should be able to stand on its own... and preferably without changing any major plot points (granted, I know that this is a problem fro so many remakes anyways, especially in film). The exception to this being if the original was a pile of hot garbage, something we know OG VII definitely wasn't.

Of course, I went and double-checked the trailers... and I had to re-evaluate what SE is doing in their marketing. I will still say that any remake has to stand on its own, but I'm honestly not sure who SE is trying to market to. It feels like they're definitely aiming for the crowd that played the OG VII, but also trying to show they've updated their mechanics and graphics for anyone who has never played the OG. Which leads to the next major problem: how much do you change the story? For anyone who is new and isn't aware of Certain Events, then I can understand them changing that scene (and swear under my breath about otaku and their moe waifus). Meanwhile, it feels like they're taking a very heavy risk for those who HAVE played the original game- double-checking the trailer, they have already made certain changes, but they aren't anything that drastically changes the overall plot. But if the ending of this part does ultimately lead to Major Plot Points being changed... well, let's put it like this: Back in the Day, there were two major things that made VII take off: the Infamous Scene, and the fact that VII's gameplay was a breakthrough, at least in the West. The latter of those now doesn't apply because of how far game development has come. So it feels like they're aiming to make money off nostalgia... if parts of the story ultimately get changed, will they still be able to cash in on the nostalgia?

Actually, let me make a tl;dr- what defines a Remake? How much can you change to the original story before the only thing the OG and the Remake have in common is the name? My answer is that you can update graphics, combat, and maybe flesh some parts out, but making major changes to the storyline and plot means it's no longer a Remake but something else entirely.

EDIT: Doing some hunting, I have found something completely infuriating that makes me go, NOMURA, YOU BASTARD!!
Interviewer: So what's the second meaning of Remake?
Nomura: [Laughs, Does Not Answer]

So Nomura, you're purposefully fucking with us to give leeway to all the changes you're going to throw in. It's practically official, we have False Advertising with this game. Go suck a dick, Nomura.

[Homura7]

That infamous scene you're talking of is going to play out differently, you can be so damn sure about that. The story is already building up to that twist and dropped several hints along the way.

And yeah, "REMAKE" wasn't actually about the game itself. Took you long enough to figure it out, uh?

Also, did you know Nomura had been planning to do this for 15 years. And false advertising? Ever heard about the word "surprise"?

[Magin]

It would be more accurate to call it "Nomura's Fanfiction", but that doesn't sell. The problem is, we've had established canon for 20+ years. So throwing in "surprises" breaks that canon when you're just calling it "Remake", implying again, that no major changes to the plot are being made.

I mean, if they call the next installment something other than "Remake", it would be more accurate. Even though really, it turns out this "remake" is going down the route of (extremely well-written) fanfiction.

[Homura7]

By your logic everything is fan-fiction.

FF7R is a sequel, plain and simple. A pseudo-sequel to be more precise, as the setting and the cast are the same. There's a ton of foreshadowing about how the events are going to play out in the next installment, as well.

I have no doubt the next game is going to have a different title. I'll go with FFVII-REBIRTH, and will feature Aeris in the cover.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure FFVII-R will have 3 releases.

[Magin]

Honestly, it's more accurate to call it pseudo-fanfiction. I double-checked credits, and in the OG Nomura is both Artist (character designer, really) and a Writer... but NOT Director, who is the one who ultimately had the final say. Now although he is director for the Remake, calling it "Director's Cut" is inappropriate.

And it doesn't classify as a sequel in any way, shape or form. This is why I'd be more comfortable calling it an Alternate Universe:

Spoiler for just in case:

Between the Whispers, Aeris alluding to having memories of the OG 7, and Zack reappearing, we're not in what is one of the biggest defining features of a sequel: SAME TIMELINE. And if Aeris really does live through (okay, makes it all the way to the end of the game), then you can be 100% sure this is a different timeline. Plus, I'd add the qualifier that it would have to take place AFTER events of the OG, and the original wrapped up in terms of plot quite nicely

[Tactics]

FYI, after Dissidia success SE often 'force' players to look back into their OG games as Dissidia proven many players willing to sit back to learn more about FF.
Increase of accessible old FF games in smartphone and next-gen console is proof of it. So statement of SE didn't know who FF VII-R marketed into is TOTALLY WRONG.

I'm sure Kitase, Nomura and Nojima already expected people to be confused. Its their plan from start, look at how kind SE keep OG FF VII available to download.
Is that really something people without plan will do? With Remake they have new story to offers, old story to look back, enough concept and theorycrafting to revisit; win-win solution that will keep each installment in mystery during development time.

I disagree with statement that Remake is fanfic just because people that make major decision became slightly different; if you wanted to argue about it just because Nomura get better position compare to 13 years ago, then tell us if includement of Sakaguchi could help better than man who involved in FF VII Compilation for years. What's next? Change the company title to Squaresoft again because Remake is fanfic if its made by Squarenix?

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Magin

And it doesn't classify as a sequel in any way, shape or form. This is why I'd be more comfortable calling it an Alternate Universe:

Spoiler for just in case:

Between the Whispers, Aeris alluding to having memories of the OG 7, and Zack reappearing, we're not in what is one of the biggest defining features of a sequel: SAME TIMELINE. And if Aeris really does live through (okay, makes it all the way to the end of the game), then you can be 100% sure this is a different timeline. Plus, I'd add the qualifier that it would have to take place AFTER events of the OG, and the original wrapped up in terms of plot quite nicely

You do realize your statement has one major flaw, right?

Spoiler for spoiler:

The fact Aeris knows EVERYTHING that happened in FF7 and is acquainted with Cloud and the other party members before the onset of these relationships (she called Red XIII a "child"), or the fact whenever she talks about things that have yet to happen she speaks in past tense (Sefirot or the journey), are proof this setting takes place in the same timeline. She even knows how much time they have left before Sector 7 collapses, and accurately describes Cloud's personality when they are in her house.

And the scene with Zack happens in the past. There is no alternate timeline, you're being deceived.

And is not just Aeris who happens to remember. Cloud, right after being reunited with her in the church, starts having flashbacks to the past. No, these are not visions. These are HIS MEMORIES.

Memories played a great deal in the plot of FF7, and memories are again playing a really important part in the plot of FF7R.

When they are in her garden, Aeris tells Cloud that "today is a very special day, that's why I worked my butt off".

If this single line followed by her giggle and smile when Cloud asks her why, or the way she greets Tifa in the Corneo Mansion, or the way Marlene's mood changes when Aeris shows her something that calms her down, aren't enough for you to tell that, then I don't know, man. Maybe you need to pay more attention to the small and not-so-small details.

Originally Posted by Tactics

FYI, after Dissidia success SE often 'force' players to look back into their OG games as Dissidia proven many players willing to sit back to learn more about FF.
Increase of accessible old FF games in smartphone and next-gen console is proof of it. So statement of SE didn't know who FF VII-R marketed into is TOTALLY WRONG.

I'm sure Kitase, Nomura and Nojima already expected people to be confused. Its their plan from start, look at how kind SE keep OG FF VII available to download.
Is that really something people without plan will do? With Remake they have new story to offers, old story to look back, enough concept and theorycrafting to revisit; win-win solution that will keep each installment in mystery during development time.

I disagree with statement that Remake is fanfic just because people that make major decision became slightly different; if you wanted to argue about it just because Nomura get better position compare to 13 years ago, then tell us if includement of Sakaguchi could help better than man who involved in FF VII Compilation for years. What's next? Change the company title to Squaresoft again because Remake is fanfic if its made by Squarenix?

Agreed. For real, man. I'll take the expertise of these three devs before the rants of any random passerby. It also bothers me how Nomura is often used as the scapegoat like he's the only one who makes the important decisions. Geez...

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah no. I know that it's not a blatant confession (I did say "not-love confession" in my first comment, right?). But it's still a dialogue & gesture of great intimacy comparable to that of lovers or romantically intertwined pair of individuals. Aerith talked & acted to utmost complete confidence that Cloud was already on the verge of falling for her and Cloud himself didn't even try to deny her love-claim. Even though it's not a blatant confession in the most traditional sense, that scene is pretty much a confirmation of the feelings of at least one of them (Cloud). And for me, that's pretty sudden for a timespan of 24 hours of getting to know one another.

If you're okay with that then you do you. It's not like I'm challenging those who like their relationship. I just express the things that I (+ some other newbies) find weird in that scene.

People can't control who they fall in love with man. Despite being a super "SOLDIER", Cloud is still just a man at heart. And that one day with Aerith really impacted his character. Aerith just manage to pierce through his tough interior.

And Aerith has a reason for saying what she said. As a newbie you don't have the full picture of why she is confident of his feelings towards her which is understandable if you don't know anything about the OG's story and like I said this is one of the reason the devs debated in including this scene because they anticipated that newbies would see Aerith as being a brat who is confident of Cloud falling for her. The scene would makes sense for old players but would go over the heads of new ones.

Originally Posted by Magin

Honestly, it's more accurate to call it pseudo-fanfiction. I double-checked credits, and in the OG Nomura is both Artist (character designer, really) and a Writer... but NOT Director, who is the one who ultimately had the final say. Now although he is director for the Remake, calling it "Director's Cut" is inappropriate.

And it doesn't classify as a sequel in any way, shape or form. This is why I'd be more comfortable calling it an Alternate Universe:

Spoiler for just in case:

Between the Whispers, Aeris alluding to having memories of the OG 7, and Zack reappearing, we're not in what is one of the biggest defining features of a sequel: SAME TIMELINE. And if Aeris really does live through (okay, makes it all the way to the end of the game), then you can be 100% sure this is a different timeline. Plus, I'd add the qualifier that it would have to take place AFTER events of the OG, and the original wrapped up in terms of plot quite nicely

Fanfictions mean it's created by fans. This is not. The same guys who did the OG are also behind this project so it's not accurate to say it's fanfiction.

The devs already said this project is a continuation of the FF7 compilation so yes in a sense it can be classified as a sequel. I think we can use the Back to the Future movies in comparison. The OG was the first movie while the Remake is Back to the Future part 2 but it's Sephiroth playing as old Biff who travelled back and fucked up the timeline.

Originally Posted by Magin

Ah, and so we have the crux of the argument. I would argue that you SHOULDN'T need to play the original first- anything that would reference the original without any explanation should be left as fanservice or Easter eggs. A remake should be able to stand on its own... and preferably without changing any major plot points (granted, I know that this is a problem fro so many remakes anyways, especially in film). The exception to this being if the original was a pile of hot garbage, something we know OG VII definitely wasn't.

Of course, I went and double-checked the trailers... and I had to re-evaluate what SE is doing in their marketing. I will still say that any remake has to stand on its own, but I'm honestly not sure who SE is trying to market to. It feels like they're definitely aiming for the crowd that played the OG VII, but also trying to show they've updated their mechanics and graphics for anyone who has never played the OG. Which leads to the next major problem: how much do you change the story? For anyone who is new and isn't aware of Certain Events, then I can understand them changing that scene (and swear under my breath about otaku and their moe waifus). Meanwhile, it feels like they're taking a very heavy risk for those who HAVE played the original game- double-checking the trailer, they have already made certain changes, but they aren't anything that drastically changes the overall plot. But if the ending of this part does ultimately lead to Major Plot Points being changed... well, let's put it like this: Back in the Day, there were two major things that made VII take off: the Infamous Scene, and the fact that VII's gameplay was a breakthrough, at least in the West. The latter of those now doesn't apply because of how far game development has come. So it feels like they're aiming to make money off nostalgia... if parts of the story ultimately get changed, will they still be able to cash in on the nostalgia?

Actually, let me make a tl;dr- what defines a Remake? How much can you change to the original story before the only thing the OG and the Remake have in common is the name? My answer is that you can update graphics, combat, and maybe flesh some parts out, but making major changes to the storyline and plot means it's no longer a Remake but something else entirely.

EDIT: Doing some hunting, I have found something completely infuriating that makes me go, NOMURA, YOU BASTARD!!
Interviewer: So what's the second meaning of Remake?
Nomura: [Laughs, Does Not Answer]

So Nomura, you're purposefully fucking with us to give leeway to all the changes you're going to throw in. It's practically official, we have False Advertising with this game. Go suck a dick, Nomura.

Don't really see what you're so mad about his answer lol. If Nomura point blank answered that this Remake will follow the OG faithfully but got this turn around THEN I would understand your anger. But they never said any of that. It's only the fans who assumed that. They told in the interview that the title Remake was specifically chosen for its multiple meanings. Turns out the Remake pertains to them Remaking the timeline.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Magin

It would be more accurate to call it "Nomura's Fanfiction", but that doesn't sell. The problem is, we've had established canon for 20+ years. So throwing in "surprises" breaks that canon when you're just calling it "Remake", implying again, that no major changes to the plot are being made.

I mean, if they call the next installment something other than "Remake", it would be more accurate. Even though really, it turns out this "remake" is going down the route of (extremely well-written) fanfiction.

Except the “remake” might actually have more meaning. Aerith and Sephiroth both seem to have knowledge of the original ff7. They are trying to “remake” the events Into something better for them but the fates are trying to intervene. It a meaningful title and not just a statement that it is a literal remake.

[Frailty]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Except the “remake” might actually have more meaning. Aerith and Sephiroth both seem to have knowledge of the original ff7. They are trying to “remake” the events Into something better for them but the fates are trying to intervene. It a meaningful title and not just a statement that it is a literal remake.

all hypothetical at this point though
We'll just have to wait and see on the next game

[Mad Pierrot]

Just finished the game. Despite the changes to the narrative I really enjoyed the final boss alongside the theme song.

Spoiler for spoilers:

Cloud jumping in destroyed areas that combined to run and then reaching Sephiroth in Midgar was really fun. It almost felt like playing the 2005 movie rather than watch it. So yeah, the gameplay surprised me a lot something that I haven't felt in a game since DMC5. While I appreciated the expanded lore in this game, some characters felt rando unless they happen to return into volume 2. I just hope Square is nice to the gamers by releasing at least the second volume to PS4 gamers rather than what Netherealm studios did to the Mortal Kombat fans after 2011. I'm surprised there was no DLC or anything like that so far.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Except the “remake” might actually have more meaning. Aerith and Sephiroth both seem to have knowledge of the original ff7. They are trying to “remake” the events Into something better for them but the fates are trying to intervene. It a meaningful title and not just a statement that it is a literal remake.

Not sure about throwing the 'just' part in there. In that case it isn't a remake at all. Just a sequel time-travel story. One better off being called FF7-2 Sephiroth's Remake. At least that way they are being a bit more honest.

[Twi]

That... does make more sense.