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Old 2018-11-15, 05:13   Link #1321
dragon1412
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I think that's just be the Christianity is very famous though, not to mention it is also practice in Japan
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Old 2018-11-15, 15:00   Link #1322
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Practicaly every major fantasy religion take hints from Catholic church. Same virtues, existence of deadly sins, hiarchy (SM is freaking Arci-bishop for example) and even architecture. Nine of Ten fantasy churches are catholic. That's not really something that can be glossed over.
and the catholic church took a lot of its stuff form earlier religion (ie. Vestal Virgins of the Roman Empire).
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Old 2018-11-15, 16:52   Link #1323
Questman
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Thanks guys, you all explained it well.

Sadly for me Goblin Slayer lost some fascination for me now. Virginity as a symbol is one thing, but going so far as to make your powers dependent on it is something I don't like.

I don't like the church so much, so I see influences from them bad in general.

Anyway, I think the issue is resolved. The resurrection stuff makes sense after all, but I am afraid I just don't like it that much. But that is on me now.

Last edited by Questman; 2018-11-16 at 23:05.
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Old 2018-11-15, 17:11   Link #1324
Klashikari
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I find kind of dubious to force the end of a topic when you bring multiple questions like that at end, inadvertaly challenging the narrative reason brought already for that subject.

To make it short, the reason why Resurrection has such requirement is because the practitioner blatantly asks a god to -prevent- the death of someone.
Gods, regardless of the fiction, are often described as omnipotent beings, yet don't do much because they -don't want to intervene-. There is a limit between mortals and gods for obvious reasons.
Contrary to other miracles, Resurrection is practically like asking a god to prevent the "natural course of dying" for someone else. As such, it stands for reason that they would need proper compensation for such act.

GSverse is very clear that miracles work because the clerics literally offer their soul to the gods. Such devotion appeals the gods and they bestow the miracles as result.
As such, virginity makes sense because that cleric actually didn't fall prey to temptation and devoted their soul -and- body for their gods. That would make sense that the gods would allow such kind of miracle for their most devout followers.
Alternatively, humans are often vessels of the gods in many fictions, and to allow a divine being to manifest on earth, requirements are very common (certain blood lineage etc). And one of them is simply virginity.

In a nutshell, virginity is yet a very strong way to demonstrate devotion towards a god, OR, virginity is the best way to ensure a god can manifest on the world through that body. Therefore, it makes sense for it to be a requirement for that one miracle that stands above everything else in term of healing.

If you can't accept that concept, then you shouldn't even accept that Priestess needs to beg the gods so she can deploy a barrier. After all, if it doesn't make sense for gods to bestow resurrection because of virginity, it makes even less sense that mere prayers would allow miracles that can protect and save lives: that would mean -anyone- should be able to receive miracles.

And I believe you are quite mistaken regarding the gods in GSverse. There are 3 "layers" in the story: the characters, their gods (Mother Earth etc), and the gods who rule fate with the dice (Truth, Illusion, etc). The latter were the ones who established the structure of the world and decide the fate of the adventurers, but they never directly intervene in the world because they want to be entertained.
If you check the narration thoroughly, you will realize that Illusion, Truth, Abundance, Chaos etc are -never- mentioned as gods of the characters, because they aren't even the gods ruling the world for them. Truth, Illusion etc are pretty much outside of GSverse.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2018-11-15 at 17:24.
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Old 2018-11-15, 19:45   Link #1325
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I'll just add a short piece while I'm at it because you (@Questman) seem to be downplaying why emphasis is placed on Priestess' chastity given the context in which it was used.

Considering that most fantasy stories tend to be based on medieval Europe (in most cases, usually England or Spain), it's no surprise that the world and culture tend to be based on Christianity or more specifically Roman Catholicism.

It should be pretty obvious why the concept of virginity would be sacred if we acknowledge that fantasy stories draw inspiration from Christian faith. The absolute pinnacle of most Christian faiths, Jesus Christ was born from the Virgin Mary and that alone should pretty much sum up why chastity is seen as a big deal in these types of stories. I know discussing the topic of religious views tends to be a sore spot for a lot of people in today's society of political correctness, so let's just leave it at that.

Tbh, you're dragging this out more than it needs to be. You're letting your bias cloud rational judgement despite the fact that Klashikari has time and again proven why these actions were taken given the context in which they were used.
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Old 2018-11-15, 20:53   Link #1326
Xero8420
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Questman... You need to chill out. It's baffling to see you get triggered by something involves physical or sexual contact such as virginity that easily, of which you perceived it as "stupid, senseless, illogical & nothing more but fanservice-pandering" & then dragged that down to nowhere. But come on, this is the fantasy genre we're talking about. You cannot expect all things able to be comprehended logically.

Now would you please leave that alone, even if you don't like the idea or the answer?
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Old 2018-11-15, 21:19   Link #1327
Rejectors
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I never thought this discussion turn out to be like this.
Questman, you kind of forcing your dislike/hate of something (e.g. required virginity for the resurrection is stupid) into this discussion, is not going to go anywhere.

When I read the 1st post from Klashikari, I get what the whole point of he/she trying explained and when I read your one. I feel like out of the place and it does make sense it like you forcing something you really dislike into writing instead of looking at the main point of discussion. But any let end this discussion because there is no point of continuing if one side is going to reply the same thing over and over again.



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Last edited by Rejectors; 2018-11-15 at 21:43.
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Old 2018-11-15, 21:37   Link #1328
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Questman, I've nothing further to add to the ongoing topic as I've already said what I needed to and it's pretty much the condensed version of what Klashikari has been saying for awhile now, but I just wanted to point out one thing: Sometimes, it's better for everyone involved (and the spectators) when you be the bigger man and concede.

No one will think you ran away or think worse of you for doing so. As a matter of fact, some people may think worse of you for persistently dragging out a discussion that most would consider pretty much concluded. I can't speak for any others who're lurking or planning on replying, but from my PoV, this debate is one-sidedly in Klashikari's favour and you're just being stubborn about conceding due to your pride.

It's nothing to be ashamed of, We all do it at least once. I've had more than my fair share of debates where I ended up conceding due to being thoroughly and soundly defeated. Just chalk it up to learning something you didn't know before. That's how I treat most debates where I concede.

It doesn't help that both of you are giving such long replies either. It becomes a chore to read that many long replies in succession and sometimes, I just ignore them entirely...
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Old 2018-11-16, 01:16   Link #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questman View Post
I am aware of that, that is why I offered to close the topic. But when the one I am discussing it with calls this move 'dubious', as in I am running away from the discussion, then I feel like to act on it.

And to point out the difference, the system makes sense now, but I don't like it, and I pointet out why I don't like it. I don't like the church and I do think virginity is a concept invented by lonely men.

I know already that I can deal with it or go away and look for something else, I don't care much for that resurrection part to begin with, I just thought 'eh, a little bit unnecessary, but okay, no biggie' when I read it for the first time. Judging the entire book because three pages did not meet my expectations is dumb, so I never did that.


But a discussion started, and I responded to it, and I responded to it in length to avoid misunderstandings and assumptions.

If no one has to say anything to me or wants to continue the topic, fine by me. I can stop anytime, but I will respond so no one thinks I run away from discussions.


By the way: 'rational judgement' is not necessarily what you think it is, at least the entire topic is not something that can be defined as 'rational' to begin with.
And let's see what Kashi will write this time, then complain. If he/she stops so will I, until then feel free to skip long posts with my name on it.
I do agree with closing this debate, but before that I want point on pretty obvious mistake. Emphasis on virginity has nothing to do with being or not being "used goods". Celibate is practice of both genders. Dedicating own body to God alone is basic rule for catholic priests and that even now, there is actually more male priests than female ones.

As for why SM didn't ask some of her subordinates, that was pretty much explained already. Getting naked with unkown man is not in priest job description. What SM did was above what she or any woman of cloth have to and maybe even should to. Basicaly it's not something she have right ask others.
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Old 2018-11-16, 09:49   Link #1330
Klashikari
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Just in case: the whole point wasn't to convince anyone to "like" every single aspect of a fiction, and I personally have a beef with certain elements in GS. That said, when someone share an opinion with certain facts, it is normal that opinion might be challenged if those points are considered mistaken, which was my approach from the very beginning. Anyway, saving space
TL;DR…
 
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
On another note, I guess it is safe to assume the church "siege" in the ruins will be covered in the next episode. I just hope they won't screw the champion because it is the "first" time for the anime.
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Old 2018-11-16, 10:16   Link #1331
Tenzen12
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To be fair, that scene indeed was done for sake of fanservice. Author wanted Priestess and Sword Maiden naked and used religious ritual as excuse. It's just virginity was not part of fanservice, but natural part of excuse to justify presence of it instead.

It's similiar to when villagers try appease dragon by sacrificing maiden. Damsel in question need to be virgin because it's convention (and again derived from religious symbolic) not because Knight in shining armor wouldn't bother otherwise. That doesn't change that knight in the end will get his waifu.
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Old 2018-11-16, 10:35   Link #1332
Klashikari
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While I agree it is a convention based on old fashioned perception, I disagree with the notion of fanservice because the descriptions are very tame and don't really allude to a lewd or sexy situation (cf my examples with an artist or nurse dealing with naked persons). This is also the case for the manga were Priestess wasn't really shown in a suggestive manner, quite to the contrary with Sword Maiden showing her "weak side" to GS.

In a way, the author basically borrowed very classic ideas to simplify the scene as a whole (which doesn't work well elsewhere in GS), so readers who are used to them understand immediately what he tried to do.
To me, that scene is the same as Fighter's rape: both aren't fanservice on their own but carry some weight because the image associated to rape/maiden in bed carry very strong and recognizable ideas behind them.
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Old 2018-11-16, 11:22   Link #1333
Jord
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I have a question about SM and what happened to her in the past.

Spoiler for Q:
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Old 2018-11-16, 11:29   Link #1334
Klashikari
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There wasn't any detail regarding that period of time in the LN, so I assume the author will cover that in the other side story LN, Daikatana.
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Old 2018-11-16, 11:39   Link #1335
Tenzen12
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Rape while also using established concept has strong influence on plot and tone would completely change if it wasn't present. But remove two naked beuties from healing process and nothing really change. It wasn't relevant and while making sense lore wise, it doesn't make it richer. It use recognisable ideas, but it doesn't "carry them". It's pretty cleal bad scene was goal and symbolism just mean to ti. There is nothing wrong with having "healing scene", but it wasn't necessary and if it wasn't necessary, asking why it was done then is matter of course.

Sure novel doesn't go into details, but it was same with chainmall bikiny scene or HEA morning. Novel have this standoffish narration regardless whether it follow grimdark topics or harem antics.
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Old 2018-11-16, 11:52   Link #1336
Jord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There wasn't any detail regarding that period of time in the LN, so I assume the author will cover that in the other side story LN, Daikatana.
So anything regarding what happened to her can be considered just theories for now.
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Old 2018-11-16, 12:11   Link #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Rape while also using established concept has strong influence on plot and tone would completely change if it wasn't present. But remove two naked beuties from healing process and nothing really change. It wasn't relevant and while making sense lore wise, it doesn't make it richer. It use recognisable ideas, but it doesn't "carry them". It's pretty cleal bad scene was goal and symbolism just mean to ti. There is nothing wrong with having "healing scene", but it wasn't necessary and if it wasn't necessary, asking why it was done then is matter of course.

Sure novel doesn't go into details, but it was same with chainmall bikiny scene or HEA morning. Novel have this standoffish narration regardless whether it follow grimdark topics or harem antics.
It might just be me, but I've never approached the healing scene as a plot or lore heavy scene, but more of a characters scene. We see another aspect of GS's damaged psyche - that is, he doesn't even bat an eye at SM and Priestess's nakedness despite them both beautiful women and more concerned about seeing the spell Ressurection being real and Priestess scar.

Similarly, we get a sorta glimpse at something rather wrong with SM when she herself doesn't react all that much to being naked with a stranger - a stranger who's rather weird at that.
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Old 2018-11-16, 12:18   Link #1338
Tenzen12
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I never though about it that way, but now that you mention I guess this is indeed at least part of it.
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Old 2018-11-16, 13:02   Link #1339
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Just adding my two cents to the Resurrection scene, but part of the reason it was done like that may have been to justify its rarity. It puts the users in a very vulnerable position compared to the person they're healing, so it's understandable it isnt done often.

If all it took was laying hands on the subject or whatever, you'd start to wonder why it wasnt used all the time.
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Old 2018-11-16, 13:18   Link #1340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
It might just be me, but I've never approached the healing scene as a plot or lore heavy scene, but more of a characters scene. We see another aspect of GS's damaged psyche - that is, he doesn't even bat an eye at SM and Priestess's nakedness despite them both beautiful women and more concerned about seeing the spell Ressurection being real and Priestess scar.

Similarly, we get a sorta glimpse at something rather wrong with SM when she herself doesn't react all that much to being naked with a stranger - a stranger who's rather weird at that.
I've never thought about it in that way, but now that you've mentioned it. That opens up a whole new layer of depth for that scene which I previously didn't take into consideration.

Still, I'd only consider it as being a partially character-driven scene. I'm still of the opinion that it's a scene that delves a bit into the lore and culture of the world (based on medieval Christianity).

------------
Tenzen12 raises a good point by mentioning whether it was necessary or not. In that aspect, it comes down to the readers' own interpretation of the significance of the scene. Some may think it necessary and others may not. As for my stance of it, I'm of the opinion that it is necessary. However, I'll add that it's also simultaneously a fanservice scene.

The act of using resurrection itself and why Priestess' cooperation was needed for it are not fanservice. These aspects of the scene are justified and all of the reasons giving justification are in Klashikari's previous posts.

However, the actual nudity itself can arguably be fanservice. Why do I say that? Well, in some stories, a maiden only needs to wear a simple plain white dress and that pretty much symbolizes their purity. Of the few fantasies I've seen that take cues from Christian lore, not all of them require a maiden to get nude in similar types of scenes.

There may be reasons that can believably justify why they had to be nude with GS in that scene, but on the contrary, it'd also be quite easy to come up with a few decent reasons to have them wearing some type of ceremonial clothing. Just an example of what I mean: They could've prepared a "traditional robe (that's still pretty suggestive in itself)" that's considered a part of the ritual.

To further get my point across, I'll borrow the same example Tenzen12 used with villagers sacrificing a maiden to appease a dragon. Some versions of that story may have the sacrifice be naked and others may have her clothed in a simple white dress. (Both of which do their job of emphasizing purity.)

It may have been a justified custom of an era long gone, but considering that this is a LN that targets a young male demographic, it's pretty obvious any reasons given to include nudity where applicable, would fall into the realm of fanservice.
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