(L+CR) Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru

[outlaw97]

The vagueness in tying up loose ends is either intentional wiggle room for expansions and sequels, or shoddy writing. Both options were bound to leave a bit of a bad taste in viewers' mouths, but I will be an optimist and say the reasoning is the former, and eagerly await what's next.

But VORTIA's points alluding to Shintoism, combined with Fuu's line about eating the offerings would make more sense the more familiar you are with Shintoism and Asian cultures.

As an example (not trying to get religious here), our family offers a chicken up for worship every few weeks or so. I don't know the details, but in general it's for good luck, fortune, whatever. It sits in front of the mini-shrine for a certain period of time, then it's dinner material afterwards. Why don't we eat the chicken immediately? Who knows, it's just the way it is - I think I told myself that the gods were eating the spiritual version of the chicken, leaving the physical form behind.

So making an offering of yourself via a physical disability, and then later getting that ability back, is the same as offering that chicken for a certain period of time, then eating the chicken afterwards. Similarly, asking why the Offering/Mankai/Sange process is even needed for the powers would be like asking why we even need to offer that chicken to get the (spiritual) benefits.

It makes me want to re-watch the episodes and see if the Japanese term used was explicitly "sacrifice". That word definitely has the connotation that something permanent is lost, which obviously contradicts what's happened here.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Yet what suffering was Togo ostensibly trying to help them avoid? An eternity after dozens of mankai. Togo knows she's facing her friends 4 to 1 and at least Yuna is ballsy enough to mankai as many times to defeat her. Odds weren't in her favor of winning the fight would still mean, losing her objective - saving her friends from a state of continued living death and incapacitation.

4 to 1 + an army of evil gods.

The odds were actually in Togo's favor and she almost succeeded, most of her friends were put out of commission, it was just she and Yuuna at that point, she just had to stall her a bit while the vertex continued its march.

More to the point I find it hard to believe that the thought that it was too late to go back didn't cross Togo's mind.

Was she ready to live with the guilt of all of her friends being turned into total cripple because of her half-assed decision?

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Togo stated to Yuna "It would have been so much easier if you'd simply remained unconscious". Togo's mission was to mercy kill the world. Much to her dismay, Yuna would rather fight on suffering than simply lay down and die.

It was fine if she "wished" for that, but if she seriously thought that Yuuna wouldn't fight her, then she really didn't understand a damn thing about her friend.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Nobody knows what a story means 100% accept the author.

Unfortunately, we're not talking about what the story means. If only we could. But instead we're stuck trying to figure out the why and how, instead of the meaning. Besides, for the most part this ending rendered a lot of what the series previously built up meaningless anyway.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sonoko fought the Vertexes using mankai only once. She used mankai 21 times in that one battle, and beated the vertexes so bad the oracles said they wouldn't be coming back in at least two years (this is what the novel says). Sonoko didn't have sealing function in her system, but in mankai that's not necesary.

There's really not much difference between that and what happened this time. Yet, she and Sumi weren't relieve as yuusha.

So, again, why was it different this time?

Well, I can only go by what you are saying, but the Taisha are not the same as Shinjuu. The Taisha were also wrong that the Yuushabu was done fighting after the 12th Vertex, when a 13th unexpectedly appeared. The Taisha seem to be significantly less able gauge the severity of the situation than the Shinjuu itself.

[Kazu-kun]

^ My question is about Shinjuu. Why does he give everything back now? Why not back then?

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

4 to 1 + an army of evil gods.

The odds were actually in Togo's favor and she almost succeeded, most of her friends were put out of commission, it was just she and Yuuna at that point, she just had to stall her a bit while the vertex continued its march.

I'd say the odds were only in Togo's favor if the remaining heroes were too afraid to mankai. The success Karin had in tearing through Vertexes with only her handful of mankai leads me to believe that if everyone was willing to throw their bodies away they would have easily dispatched Togou and probably could have stopped the vertex attack, not that the world would have looked very nice afterward, with all the collateral damage passed on to the inhabitants.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

^ My question is about Shinjuu. Why does he give everything back now? Why not back then?

Best I can tell, because it couldn't, it still needed that bond. What does the Shinjuu do with people's physical essence once it takes them? Strengthens the barrier and sustains itself, presumably.

It's also possible that a deity like Shinjuu may not think very much about the temporary suffering of one human being in the big scheme of the life or death of the human race, and that several years might not seem like a long time to an immortal divinity. I'm not saying Shinjuu's a swell guy, I'm just saying the story makes sense.

For whatever reason, the Shinjuu seemed to still perceive a threat, even if the Taisha didn't. At the end of the anime, the Shinjuu ceases to perceive a threat.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

I'd say the odds were only in Togo's favor if the remaining heroes were too afraid to mankai. The success Karin had in tearing through Vertexes with only her handful of mankai leads me to believe that if everyone was willing to throw their bodies away they would have easily dispatched Togou and probably could have stopped the vertex attack, not that the world would have looked very nice afterward, with all the collateral damage passed on to the inhabitants.

Still the point remains that it doesn't seem that this had something to do with her change of mind. When that happened she had only Yuuna in front of her so at that point she objectively had the advantage.

Originally Posted by VORTIA

It's also possible that a deity like Shinjuu may not think very much about the temporary suffering of one human being in the big scheme of the life or death of the human race, and that several years might not seem like a long time to an immortal divinity. I'm not saying Shinjuu's a swell guy, I'm just saying the story makes sense.

This is actually a point that I made before. Let's say that we agree on this point, why would you exclude the possibility that the offerings weren't meant to be returned? Shinju-sama maybe didn't comprehend that it was something extremely negative for the heroes.

My interpretation is that Shinju-sama learned it because of Togo and Yuuna. And with this interpretation at least what happened in the last episode gains some kind of significance. They actually earned their recovery. They didn't just despair pointlessly for something that was bound to solve itself.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

What does the Shinjuu do with people's physical essence once it takes them? Strengthens the barrier and sustains itself, presumably.

Then he wouldn't give them back.

It's also possible that a deity like Shinjuu may not think very much about the temporary suffering of one human being in the big scheme of the life or death of the human race, and that several years might not seem like a long time to an immortal divinity. I'm not saying Shinjuu's a swell guy,

That still doesn't answer my question. Though to be honest, I know there's no answer. There's no clear set of rules and logic to this system and world. The plot just bends itself according to the need of the writer.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Then he wouldn't give them back.

Why not? He may gain something from the bond, but he's also a complex, divine entity with a goal of preserving humanity. Ergo, he has some positive intent towards humans. I like eating steak, but I don't insist on killing every cow I see. Shinjuu doesn't seem like it would hold onto an offering from a human any longer than it thinks it needs it.

That still doesn't answer my question. Though to be honest, I know there's no answer. There's no clear set of rules and logic to this system and world. The plot just bends itself according to the need of the writer.

I don't know, a fair amount of us seem to be seeing a rather clear picture that's been drawn in rather broad strokes. You admit over and over that our theories make sense, but for some reason, you refuse to accept any explanation short of the writer coming out and saying "Hey, Kazu, let me tell you how Shinjuu thinks/feels". Traditionally, Gods just aren't portrayed as something mortals can readily understand. I'm not sure why you can't accept that a fictional god is going to be just as hard to intimately understand as one is in real life.

[Kazu-kun]

Traditionally, Gods just aren't portrayed as something mortals can readily understand. I'm not sure why you can't accept that a fictional god is going to be just as hard to intimately understand as one is in real life.

If you don't set rules and a clear internal logic for you fictional world, then anything is possible, and that renders any conflict and buildup meaningless.

[Kouvley]

Originally Posted by outlaw97

The vagueness in tying up loose ends is either intentional wiggle room for expansions and sequels, or shoddy writing.

Being a multimedia project, I'm inclined to believe it's the former but if we take the anime on it's own then it's definitely the latter.

Disappointed.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If you don't set rules and a clear internal logic for you fictional world, then anything is possible, and that renders any conflict and buildup meaningless.

Yet people have explained to you how it can be consistent, but you aren't satisfied with the potential to be consistent, you want clear motivations and hard mechanics. Religions seldom provide any. I guess you need to complain to the authors of every religious text ever written then about how vague they are about the words of their deity.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Yet people have explained to you how it can be consistent, but you aren't satisfied with the potential to be consistent, you want clear motivations and hard mechanics. Religions seldom provide any. I guess you need to complain to the authors of every religious text ever written then about how vague they are about the words of their deity.

You are giving explanations based on assumptions with very little facts and points that are established with the series.
Regardless if they are sound or not, the problem is that story writing should -not- rely on mere assumptions.

Whereas an open ending can leave some interpretation to the audience regarding the "message" or possible open ending, it falls flat HARD when it comes to event that has occured and points related to the laws of the said fiction universe.

You don't introduce something to retcon it later on, by using assumptions using unrelated points.
With that kind of reasoning, you can explain any DEM for any fiction.
It has absolutely nothing to do with religion since the matter has absolutely no answer whatsoever, while a fiction has -hard facts- since it was created by someone, so the said person should be able to answer that.

When a series has to rely on the audience to fill the gap in such fashion, there is a glaring issue in term of story telling.
With such kind of excuse, any author can simply leave things vague or holes in their story and let the audience deal with it, which is completely silly.

For instance, no one really had any problem with Yuuna potentially still a Hero and whatever that can come afterwards. However, things like the system has glaring plothole due to Sonoko's existence that it gives a lot of questions and doubts to the writing itself.
Likewise, Mimori's mental state is also questioned because the series established the character consistently before THEN for some reason change things at the end of the series, it certainly doesn't sit well with many of us.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It has absolutely nothing to do with religion since the matter has absolutely no answer whatsoever, while a fiction has -hard facts- since it was created by someone, so the said person should be able to answer that.

How do you write a story with a realistically distant and vague divinity in it if you don't write it as a realistically distant and vague divinity?

When a series has to rely on the audience to fill the gap in such fashion, there is a glaring issue in term of story telling.
With such kind of excuse, any author can simply leave things vague or holes in their story and let the audience deal with it, which is completely silly.

As I said, I simply don't see the glaring gaps you seem to be struggling with. I'm kind of at a loss to understand what you even feel is missing, but I guess we're at an impass on it, because I feel like this is all very easy to swallow. Sorry you didn't like the series, I suppose.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

How do you write a story with a realistically distant and vague divinity in it if you don't write it as a realistically distant and vague divinity?

By not bending the rules of such divinity.
You don't have a divinity able to do certain things which lead to consequence and then actually reveal this consequence has no effect by being completely opposite to what was shown from the half of the series, with nothing that would confirm such possibility (and again, that offering "gag" hardly was relevant to this case).

You are completely sidetracking the discussion with unrelated arguments at this point.

As I said, I simply don't see the glaring gaps you seem to be struggling with. I'm kind of at a loss to understand what you even feel is missing, but I guess we're at an impass on it, because I feel like this is all very easy to swallow. Sorry you didn't like the series, I suppose.

Excuse me? So the fact I don't like the ending automatically mean I don't like the series?
Do you realize that if I didn't like this series, I would have dropped it way before the ending and I wouldn't even care about its shoddy ending?

Please stop this condescending act, it is obnoxious and has nothing to do with the discussion. I find that absurdely rude to make such strawman argument by discrediting my points with such statement.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

By not bending the rules of such divinity.

Since the rules were never spelled out, and the girls simply picked it up in bits in pieces themselves in media res, I don't really feel there were any "rules" to bend. It seems you interpreted the girls understanding of things as the established truth. I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume they were kind of off the mark, seeing as all their thoughts were based on assumptions and partial knowledge on their own part.

Excuse me? So the fact I don't like the ending automatically mean I don't like the series?
Do you realize that if I didn't like this series, I would have dropped it way before the ending and I wouldn't even care about its shoddy ending?

If I don't like the end of a series, I really don't feel that I can like the series as a whole. Assuming that such a thing applies to you is obviously a mistake on my part. I'm not sure that I understand how someone can like a series if they don't like the result of the established narrative, but I can accept that that's a personal hang-up of mine. My apologies.

Please stop this condescending act, it is obnoxious and has nothing to do with the discussion. I find that absurdely rude to make such strawman argument by discrediting my points with such statement.

I'm sorry if you found my comments condescending. I'm truthfully expressing my confusion that some people find this finale somehow confusing or in some way faulty. As I said, I mean no slight against you, I simply thought you no longer liked the show. If that isn't true, then I'm sorry I misrepresented you.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Since the rules were never spelled out, and the girls simply picked it up in bits in pieces themselves in media res, I don't really feel there were any "rules" to bend. It seems you interpreted the girls understanding of things as the established truth. I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume they were kind of off the mark, seeing as all their thoughts were based on assumptions and partial knowledge on their own part.

I do not use Sonoko's statements or anything as truth exactly because they are unreliable.
My arguments thus far used Sonoko's -existence and predicament- to figure out the logic behind her purpose after what happened with the end of the series.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't follow you with all the "bonds" talk you have been explaining thus far with the assumptions above, exactly because I and other people don't see the points that made such kind of plot device even present to begin with.

Here are points regarding her state without any faulty interpretation:
-She was unable to even have a normal life
-This situation lasted for 2 years without any progress whatsoever
-Even with the new generation at work, she is not released from her duties.
-She wasn't explained that Sange effect is reversible at all
-Even after she revealed critical information to Yuuna and Mimori, the Taisha didn't try to deny the information Yuuna and Mimori got from Sonoko
-Sonoko never intervened, even when the situation was dire.

With all things considered, it simply doesn't make sense for her to be healed only now, despite it was possible from the get go.
Reasons are as follow:
-Sonoko was inactive for 2 years. If Sonoko still had the potential for being a Hero, why did the Taisha and Shinjuu have to find more heroes then? It is contradictory because Yuuna and co were introduced as remplacement after all.
-OTOH, even after Sonoko's meddling, nothing changed from the divinity side, which for all intent and purpose, confirmed the girls' fears. There was no way for the Taisha not aware of this fact since they were there when Sonoko made her speech.

With these 2 elements at hand, Sonoko's crippled status is more and more murky because she is not an active hero no matter what you assume Shinjuu is doing by keeping her like this.
Therefore, the loan should have been cancelled because she already did whatever she could and even overextent her body limit to the point she is dependant on the Taisha for the rest of her life, and even so she cannot die.
With all of your assumptions that Shinjuu is benevolant towards humans and whatnot, Sonoko is arguably the one who had the biggest short end of a stick, and there is no way she can go any further considering her state.
There is no evidence Shinjuu is requiring anything from humans for the barrier. There is no evidence Shinjuu actually bear any good will towards humans if we assume Shinjuu use them so it can preserve itself.
If you make such assumption without any evidence that Shinjuu is clueless about humans suffering etc without any evidence, there is nothing that stop me assuming that Shinjuu just use humans as pawns for self preservation despite I have no evidence about that either.

Which goes back to my question: Why didn't Shinjuu release her at all? Why did it require Mimori going batshit insane, almost destroying everything in the process?
This is a direct jab to your "Shinjuu doesn't seem like it would hold onto an offering from a human any longer than it thinks it needs it.", which I find mistaken because Shinjuu changed the system only after the huge mess Mimori created in her complete breakdown.
With what happened to Sonoko, it is obvious Yuuna and the rest would have shared the very same fate if they were to fight Vertexes like how Sonoko and her friends did.

With all these questions left without any hard fact to explain this mess, this make her pathetic state questionable, leading to the conclusion she was designed as a plot device.

Again, I see nothing in the series that justifies why Sonoko was "preserved" this way which is one of the major complaint I have (and to be sure I'm not misunderstood: I bear no emotional attachment to her, so the 2 years of suffering didn't outrage me or anything of the sort).

[EroBotan]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You are giving explanations based on assumptions with very little facts and points that are established with the series.
Regardless if they are sound or not, the problem is that story writing should -not- rely on mere assumptions.

welll, I'm busy so I don't have the time tor read all of your arguement so I probably won't be able to address all of your concern or probably I merely addressing things that have been addressed before.

The author choose to not reveal all of his card by the end of the series. It's something normal especially if you want a possibility for a sequel. That's why some things are not explained & left vague. Vertex is still out there so the story is not ended yet.

for the dem, here is some hints:
1. Yuna is the only one who doesn't get covered by flower petals.
2. Yuna is the only one who goes to comatose
3. Yuna faint during the school play.

It's very likely that she's the mastermind behind this dem & there is a consequence to her health

If you want the truth instead of guessing then wait for the new materials (OVA, 2nd season, another LN, VN, manga, etc). This is also a normal thing to do, at least all of these materials are still in Yuyuyu franchinse (in the western comic they will force you to read other unrelated super heroes story if you want to fully understand the whole thing)

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

-She was unable to even have a normal life
-This situation lasted for 2 years without any progress whatsoever
-Even with the new generation at work, she is not released from her duties.
-She wasn't explained that Sange effect is reversible at all
-Even after she revealed critical information to Yuuna and Mimori, the Taisha didn't try to deny the information Yuuna and Mimori got from Sonoko
-Sonoko never intervened, even when the situation was dire.

1 and 3 was because Taisha deliberately kept her as a last guardian in case the others tried to do what Togo did.
2 makes sense since Vertex were actively trying to go pass the barrier. Just because they retreated 2 years ago doesn't mean they'll just give up, we saw how fast they regenerate.
4 Taisha had no way of refuting what Sonoko said without any proof supporting their claims against a girl who just told them she used to be like them.
5 Tiashe begged her to stop Togo but she told them NO(of course that came in the novels so those who read it know), In the anime: she also said she can fight, Taisha has her phone or else she could transform and her room was full of charms, that time in the shrine wasn't with those things and she indeed, used her power to call Togo and Yuuna. And I doubt Taisha was stupid to give her the chance to join Togo in the battlefield against Yuusha-bu.