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Old 2009-10-28, 10:47   Link #1
Genjo
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Japanese Industry Launches Global Anti-Piracy Effort

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The Nihon Keizai Shimbun paper reported on Monday that five major Japanese movie and anime companies are collaborating on a countermeasure initiative against domestic and overseas Internet piracy. Through the Content Overseas Distribution Association (CODA), the initiative will automatically search for videos that were submitted without authorization and demand that site administrators delete the unauthorized materials. The participating companies include TOHO, Studio Ghibli, and Sunrise, and the association is exploring the possible future involvement of commercial broadcasters and record companies.

The initiative will start with the monitoring of 10 to 15 works, such as Ponyo and Mobile Suit Gundam 00, on major video-sharing websites in China in the middle of November. Thereafter, the system will expand the number of sites it monitors to those outside China.

NHK News reported on Tuesday that over 38,000 Japanese-animated videos are distributed without authorization on the Internet every month. The Association of Japanese Animations (AJA) and other participants began the month-long survey this past February. According to the survey, these unauthorized videos are seen about 69 million times.

CODA is a private umbrella group of 22 companies and 20 organizations involved with content and copyrights in Japan. Its stated goal is "to stamp out piracy and promote the legal distribution of Japanese content, in particular in Asia."
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-piracy-effort

hmm i wonder how much this would effect fansubbing.
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Old 2009-10-28, 11:29   Link #2
MeoTwister5
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Well if they insist of doing this comprehensively and without compromise, it may be goodbye to fansubbing as we know it.
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Old 2009-10-28, 11:48   Link #3
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Fansubbing is doomed ... like last year ... and the year before.

Did they say how exactly they want to win where *AA loses? With hot-blooded determination and shouting real loud?

Good thing, I can indulge myself in another "fansubbers are subhuman scum" thread over at ANN.
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Old 2009-10-28, 12:28   Link #4
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This only has any meaning if they start *distributing* their works worldwide -- otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

Lemme know when I can buy Petopetosan or Mahoraba: Heartful Days with subtitles, eh?

Lemme know when I can watch *any* japanese anime airing the same way japanese fans can before they buy merchandise. Otherwise, they can STFU.

Globalization works both ways or not at all. Get some carrots going before you wave a stick.
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:01   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This only has any meaning if they start *distributing* their works worldwide -- otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

and we americans will pay for their work if the price is slashed down ala wal-mart style
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:04   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This only has any meaning if they start *distributing* their works worldwide -- otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

Lemme know when I can buy Petopetosan or Mahoraba: Heartful Days with subtitles, eh?

Lemme know when I can watch *any* japanese anime airing the same way japanese fans can before they buy merchandise. Otherwise, they can STFU.

Globalization works both ways or not at all. Get some carrots going before you wave a stick.
You speak the truth, sir.
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Old 2009-10-28, 14:23   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This only has any meaning if they start *distributing* their works worldwide -- otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

Lemme know when I can buy Petopetosan or Mahoraba: Heartful Days with subtitles, eh?

Lemme know when I can watch *any* japanese anime airing the same way japanese fans can before they buy merchandise. Otherwise, they can STFU.

Globalization works both ways or not at all. Get some carrots going before you wave a stick.
I agree strongly with this.


My view is this... once you put video or audio content on cable TV, or on the radio, you're basically giving it away to the whole world for free. That's simply how the world works today. If Japanese viewers can watch anime in their own countries with out spending extra for it (beyond a cable charge, or Japan's equivalent thereof), then anime fans through out the world are going to want and expect that same basic level of access.

Back in the 1980s, people used to record their favorite TV shows on VCR tapes all the time, and share them with their friends and loved ones. As far as I can remember, the law never batted an eyelash at it.

This was accepted for a long time, and nobody saw anything wrong with it.

The only difference now is that the technology has changed, enabling people to tape and share with a far wider variety of people. As long as this is done in a non-commercial and non-profit way, however, the spirit of the act is no different than what was done back in the 80s with VCR tapes.

The anime industry, and entertainment industries in general, are failing to see this. They think that modern-day "piracy" is something unusual or a new "criminality" that needs to be stamped out. It's not new at all... it's the same sort of stuff that people used to do decades ago, simply with lower forms of technology. And since nobody batted an eyelash at it back then, people naturally don't see what's the big deal with it today.


It's different if you're going straight-to-DVD, or airing your content on a PPV channel, or if your content is a movie only being shown in theaters... but the moment it hits cable TV or the radio, it's essentially commercially worthless. That's the trade-off of mass media: it lets you advertise your content for the masses to see, but its commercial value is lowered because of it.

Companies need to deal with that. One way would be to spruce up DVDs more, for example; put added content on and in them that you couldn't just get from cable TV, somewhere in the world.
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Old 2009-10-28, 15:01   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The anime industry, and entertainment industries in general, are failing to see this. They think that modern-day "piracy" is something unusual or a new "criminality" that needs to be stamped out.
I think a lot of new people in the entertainment industry understand that things have changed, but they are not exactly clear on the issue of making money in this "new" environment. So the only option that is readily available to them is to use the law to their advantage. Why I don't see much sense in such an approach is because they could be spending their resources on think tank groups to develop new ways of making money, not on lawyers and court fees, and making fools out of themselves. Still, by and large this doesn't concern the anime industry because it's poor and because targetting their fans is just bad publicity. So they make sweeping press releases such as this one that doesn't target anyone in particular. But this one specifically probably has a different purpose than to create a serious attempt at curbing online piracy. I'd say it's just more corporate politics none of us really understands.
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Old 2009-10-28, 15:15   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My view is this... once you put video or audio content on cable TV, or on the radio, you're basically giving it away to the whole world for free. That's simply how the world works today. If Japanese viewers can watch anime in their own countries with out spending extra for it (beyond a cable charge, or Japan's equivalent thereof), then anime fans through out the world are going to want and expect that same basic level of access.
Except the way most people are watching it is completely different in many different ways from the way Japanese viewers are consuming it. I agree with Vexx's point that they need to make it available, but the problem is it is too widely available illegally. There are some anime episodes on youtube with view numbers that would make a company have the #1 selling DVD of the year if even 1% of those people bought it.

Quote:
Back in the 1980s, people used to record their favorite TV shows on VCR tapes all the time, and share them with their friends and loved ones. As far as I can remember, the law never batted an eyelash at it.
Actually, it caused a precedent setting lawsuit first and then the reason nobody cared is because you were sharing it with a handful of people, not hundreds of thousands around the world.

Quote:
As long as this is done in a non-commercial and non-profit way, however, the spirit of the act is no different than what was done back in the 80s with VCR tapes.
Actually, the spirit was completely different. Back then the idea was to get something you missed. Now, the spirit is just to get free entertainment without paying a cent.

Quote:
It's different if you're going straight-to-DVD, or airing your content on a PPV channel, or if your content is a movie only being shown in theaters... but the moment it hits cable TV or the radio, it's essentially commercially worthless. That's the trade-off of mass media: it lets you advertise your content for the masses to see, but its commercial value is lowered because of it.
While the value of your content is changes, it is anything but worthless. This is why the superbowl ads go for millions while the superbowl is broadcast around the world and DVDs of the superbowl still sell. What's being forgotten is that anime isn't a show, it's an infomercial for the rest of the franchise and related goods.
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Old 2009-10-28, 15:33   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Actually, the spirit was completely different. Back then the idea was to get something you missed. Now, the spirit is just to get free entertainment without paying a cent.
Or about seeing stuff that isn't available in your area and might never be available in your area. Seeing as many people who watch fansubs spend substantial amounts of money on anime.

The fansub watching community is far too broad to be painted with one brush, really.

(That said, it is a fact that bittorrent and the like is what has allowed the "pirate everything" mentality to crop up in the first place. The characteristics of a technology do play a large role in shaping how it is used.)

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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Good thing, I can indulge myself in another "fansubbers are subhuman scum" thread over at ANN.
Note to self: steer clear of ANN for a bit.

My last round of debates with the anti-fansub crew over there convinced me it just isn't worth it... when the same person who rejects the Haruhi argument on the grounds that "it could have gotten licensed anyway" also supports the idea that the reason Evangelion 1.0 went unlicensed for so long is because of piracy (despite the fact that the movie has long been available legally in some region 3 countries with a far, far higher piracy rate than the US), I have to conclude that any positive defense of fansubs will be rejected on ideological grounds.
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Old 2009-10-28, 15:51   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
I think a lot of new people in the entertainment industry understand that things have changed, but they are not exactly clear on the issue of making money in this "new" environment. So the only option that is readily available to them is to use the law to their advantage. Why I don't see much sense in such an approach is because they could be spending their resources on think tank groups to develop new ways of making money, not on lawyers and court fees, and making fools out of themselves.
Good points. I agree with you here.


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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Except the way most people are watching it is completely different in many different ways from the way Japanese viewers are consuming it.
Not really. It's the same content, simply with subtitles added by fansubbing groups so English-speaking audiences who aren't fluent in Japanese can follow it. Furthermore, I've heard YouTube called the global radio and TV of our times. I'm inclined to agree with that assessment of YouTube.

What has changed is this... your average person doesn't believe that mere geography or regions should be an artificial border to entertainment access. If a Japanese person can watch all of his favorite anime episodes at no added cost, then why shouldn't a person living in North America or Europe? And, in fairness, I think this should go both ways. I can watch House for free when it comes on; I don't think that a Japanese person who wants to watch House with Japanese subtitles should have to pay for something that's free for me.


Quote:
I agree with Vexx's point that they need to make it available, but the problem is it is too widely available illegally. There are some anime episodes on youtube with view numbers that would make a company have the #1 selling DVD of the year if even 1% of those people bought it.
That is unfortunate, yes.


Quote:
Actually, it caused a precedent setting lawsuit first and then the reason nobody cared is because you were sharing it with a handful of people, not hundreds of thousands around the world.
Well, the ruling in that lawsuit basically proves what I was saying concerning VCR taping and sharing. You are right about how the magnitude of the issue has changed, though, yes.


Quote:

Actually, the spirit was completely different. Back then the idea was to get something you missed. Now, the spirit is just to get free entertainment without paying a cent.
I disagree completely. The spirit is still the same. Back then the idea was to not allow artificial barriers (such as a really late airing time) to block you from watching and/or re-watching your favorites shows. And today, the idea is to not allow artificial barriers (such as geographical origin of the TV content) to block you from watching and/or re-watching your favorite shows.

Look, I'd gladly trade most of my cable TV stations for one all-anime cable TV station. I'd do it in an instant. I suspect that most of us here would.


Quote:

While the value of your content is changes, it is anything but worthless.
I disagree. The content is essentially commercially worthless in the sense that it becomes accessible for free (i.e. for no added charge beyond owning a TV and a cable hook-up).

SuperBowl DVDs sell well because the DVD is presented as a valuable collectible to the fans of the two teams involved, and pro football enthusiasts in general. It's not pitched purely on the basis of the video content contained therein... because that video content was available for free to every cable-owning person in North America.

With the exception of straight-to-DVD content, people don't buy DVDs for episode content access - they buy DVDs for collectibles, and/or to simply support the makers of their favorite shows. What sells the DVD is the presentation, the packaging, the extras, the behind-the-scenes specials, etc...

The anime industry needs to get around this idea that the episode content alone sells the DVDs. It's not.


Quote:
What's being forgotten is that anime isn't a show, it's an infomercial for the rest of the franchise and related goods.
Anime is a show. Loads of people watch the anime purely for the sake of watching the anime; they're not concerned with the merchandise.

This is why if you want to sell the merchandise (i.e. the DVDs), you need to do so while pitching more than simple episode content alone.


Edit: Let me give you an example of something that I think would help sell DVDs.

Let's say that there's a new Nanoha DVD that is upped a few dollars, but with a small Nanoha figurine thrown in (say, some old Nanoha figurines that were left on the shelves, but collected back en masse). Advertise the DVD and the figurine side-by-side. The figurine becomes considerable added incentive to buy the DVD.
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Old 2009-10-28, 16:10   Link #12
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I don't see this as a successful movement until Crunchyroll starts making their subbed anime available to everyone and not region locked, subbed Anime on iTunes within 48 hours of airing or making all the releases of every anime and manga available to everyone around the world, but I highly doubt that will ever happen...

The point is, if there is no viable legal alternative that consumers are willing to pay, I highly doubt that piracy will ever go away... and even if you make it available at a price a consumer is willing to pay, the end of the day, piracy is still going to exist since you can't completely stop it.
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Old 2009-10-28, 18:22   Link #13
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Wow...this is a dramatic impact on the world of fansubbing I believe.
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Old 2009-10-28, 18:34   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This only has any meaning if they start *distributing* their works worldwide -- otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

Lemme know when I can buy Petopetosan or Mahoraba: Heartful Days with subtitles, eh?

Lemme know when I can watch *any* japanese anime airing the same way japanese fans can before they buy merchandise. Otherwise, they can STFU.

Globalization works both ways or not at all. Get some carrots going before you wave a stick.
My thoughts exactly.

ANN and the like would have the world believe that you can watch whatever you want already. Which is all bollocks.

In Australia, we're usually two years behind on releases. At the minimum. 2007 series are still not fully released, there's a bucketload of 2008 series that haven't been licensed locally. Series like Higurashi have been blacklisted and will never get a local license. Which is why most of my friends don't buy the local releases that Madman do and opt to get the American imports when they buy anime DVDs, because they're cheaper overall and better quality. As for what's shown on TV, SBS was showing 2-3 series a year a few years back - dubbed of course, then they stopped. ABC2 has picked up the slack recently and played some decent titles, although they are also guilty of 'dubs only'. No wonder Australia does nearly 20% of the world's torrent downloading for anything.

I find it highly amusing people are expected to fork out money for something they've never seen before. You just can't believe that to work. As for the idea most people wouldn't pay for something after they've watched it, several surveys have shown 4 out of 5 people will buy a title they like after they've watched a fansub. Anime fans are not heartless. We can't be expected to buy every single thing we watch along with merchandise that tickles our fancy. Most people aren't wealthy enough and there's a global recession to boot. We buy what we can afford to.

Give the world proper access and maybe things will be acceptable. They did it for the Kurokami TV screenings, so it's not like it's impossible.
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Old 2009-10-28, 20:54   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
My thoughts exactly.

ANN and the like would have the world believe that you can watch whatever you want already. Which is all bollocks.

In Australia, we're usually two years behind on releases. At the minimum. 2007 series are still not fully released, there's a bucketload of 2008 series that haven't been licensed locally. Series like Higurashi have been blacklisted and will never get a local license. Which is why most of my friends don't buy the local releases that Madman do and opt to get the American imports when they buy anime DVDs, because they're cheaper overall and better quality. As for what's shown on TV, SBS was showing 2-3 series a year a few years back - dubbed of course, then they stopped. ABC2 has picked up the slack recently and played some decent titles, although they are also guilty of 'dubs only'. No wonder Australia does nearly 20% of the world's torrent downloading for anything.

I find it highly amusing people are expected to fork out money for something they've never seen before. You just can't believe that to work. As for the idea most people wouldn't pay for something after they've watched it, several surveys have shown 4 out of 5 people will buy a title they like after they've watched a fansub. Anime fans are not heartless. We can't be expected to buy every single thing we watch along with merchandise that tickles our fancy. Most people aren't wealthy enough and there's a global recession to boot. We buy what we can afford to.

Give the world proper access and maybe things will be acceptable. They did it for the Kurokami TV screenings, so it's not like it's impossible.
I think you have just hit the most important point of them all : People won't pay money for something they lack knowledge of. If the anime company wants people to give them the money, they have to offer something free at first as an enticement, for people will simply refuse to buy that DVD nor pay money to watch online if they lack assurance that it will be worth it. In order for anime company to really get some money from international audience, they should release subbed version of their anime series to the internet for free, but they should put some advertisement in there, and also advertise on the site where the anime series can be shown and/or downloaded, how people could buy the DVD and related stuffs. They need to turn the internet into a big TV broadcasting station. That probably is the model that can maximize their revenue.
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Old 2009-10-28, 21:03   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I think you have just hit the most important point of them all : People won't pay money for something they lack knowledge of. If the anime company wants people to give them the money, they have to offer something free at first as an enticement, for people will simply refuse to buy that DVD nor pay money to watch online if they lack assurance that it will be worth it. In order for anime company to really get some money from international audience, they should release subbed version of their anime series to the internet for free, but they should put some advertisement in there, and also advertise on the site where the anime series can be shown and/or downloaded, how people could buy the DVD and related stuffs. They need to turn the internet into a big TV broadcasting station. That probably is the model that can maximize their revenue.
I completely and totally agree. Well said.
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Old 2009-10-28, 22:20   Link #17
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this is a great discussion.

i would like to say that i can understand where the companies are coming from. but as another fan from Australia it is actually terrible how long it takes us to get such little anime. i mean madman has only just finished realeasing the the last disc in the Darker than Black season 1 on the 21st of october. ive only started to download series this year and i really dont know how i could of ever lived with out it.

but im hoping the companies in question really think thoroughly about the procedures they hope to put in place and dont just rush in guns blazing because this could possibly make things alot worse rather than make it better.

even if these companies were to charge a subscription fee of sorts to watch their programs that have been fansubbed (sort of like a pay tv subscription) i wouldnt have a problem with that as long as is a monthly or yearly fee and you are able to download whatever you want as long as your subscription is valid.

by the way i know the main station for showing anime in japan is Animax i was just wondering how many others also air anime and whether they are on free or subscription tv.
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Old 2009-10-28, 22:37   Link #18
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I think AT-X and WoWoW are the two cable channels in Japan that are dedicated to anime. NHK, TV Asahi and Fuji are mainstream channels that show a bit. The majority of anime gets played from 9 at night to 3-4 in the morning. A lot of material is just made purely to fill gaps in time slots, sadly. The noTiminA and Noise slots are usually the two that show the cream of the nighttime shows.
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Old 2009-10-28, 22:54   Link #19
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
I think AT-X and WoWoW are the two cable channels in Japan that are dedicated to anime. NHK, TV Asahi and Fuji are mainstream channels that show a bit. The majority of anime gets played from 9 at night to 3-4 in the morning. A lot of material is just made purely to fill gaps in time slots, sadly. The noTiminA and Noise slots are usually the two that show the cream of the nighttime shows.
shit that is so good. but thats what i was saying if there was an option to get a subscription of sorts to an endosed fansub station would anyone else on hear have a problem with suscribing to it.

but they would have to put in place a higher fee for the cable channel and then they would have to think of something similar for the free to air channel.

but thats my opinion.
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Old 2009-10-28, 23:06   Link #20
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That's where ratings come into play. You'd want a decent return via ratings. A decent series that isn't aimed at kids will get in the 2-4% range, so-so ones at 1% or lower. Occassionally something like Nodame Cantabile, which manged to crack 8% despite being on around midnight, breaks the ratings domination of the usual suspects. The original FMA series was in the 5-8% range for a long time. For the 2nd half of this year, in the July season Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 and Bakemonogatari were in the 2-4% ratings range. From the current season, Kimi ni Todoke is in that range at present. There's a couple of new shows aimed at younger people, like Yumeiro Patisserie, which are rating at 5%.
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