Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS - Favorite Character(s) Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hey, you think you have it bad? My favorite characters constantly battling for first place are Nanoha and Vivio. And while Vivio is excused because I like her background and more mature post-StrikerS version more then the moe-blob, I have not even the slightest clue why I like Nanoha so much.

Anyway, I agree that there is no small amount of surrealism in Nanoha's motivations. I've had a small discussion about it before with Tk, and he said something that really hit home:

"Well I’ve always said I do kind of like my heroes quite heroic, I like Nanoha too even though everyone seems to think she’s too “perfect”.

But you know what as I've said that doesn’t really bother me. Nanoha is basically the Superman of her universe, besides without some paragon to compare too how do you judge “flawed” anyway? Flawed compared to what? Face it the very concept of a “flawed” hero requires a pure hero to exist."

On the subject of her wisdom... it's true that no 9-year-old should have that much wisdom and intelligence, but then that is the case for any 9-year-old. Fate and Hayate are not excluded from this either. Sure, Fate was abused by her mother for a little while, and Hayate lived alone for as long as she can remember, but that doesn't change that they are still 9-year-olds. This is really something that's just part of the mahou shoujo genre though, and cracking down specifically on Nanoha for it is unfair, as the same thing goes for Hayate, Fate, Erio, Caro, Lutecia... the only one with an excuse would be Vivio, as she has the memories of a long lost rules helping her.

Love the Superman comparison! I definitely view Nanoha as very Superman-esque. I even once considered writing a Superman/Nanoha fanfic that would have Superman create an almost all-female anime Justice League, with Nanoha and Fate as his two most trusted allies in that anime Justice League.

Nanoha's a touch too calm, wise, and mature for her age (intelligence is debatable - if what her school teaches is any indication, it's ahead of where most North American elementary students are at; so many nine year old Japanese girls really are this well-educated). However, Nanoha being a bit too competent is much better than what I've normally found with magical girls - very clutzy, very immature, easily frightened, takes forever to get used to their powers, some of them even hate having super powers, etc...

Nanoha's competency and strength of character is a breath of fresh air for the magical girl genre.

[al103]

Actually Jail didn't gone for mass death way because it would make his plans fail completely - instead of Brains covering all that it would be half of "free" TSAB forces concentrated on Mid and seeking Jail. Still very Neutral Evil'ish from him. Thing about Chaotic Evil is they simply can NOT to see somebody back and not to strike in it. Even if it's goes against they better results. It would be piles of bodies just because he could do so if he was CE...

[synaesthetic]

That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.

Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.

Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.

Yes, well, it has to be. Prevents gargantuan debates between players.

And if you're not sure, follow the golden rule: When in doubt, chaotic neutral.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.

Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.

Jail wasn't really enjoying Vivio's pain, but more the completion of his experiments. I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear Vivio's screams.

Quattro did though. And she reveled in it.

[Tempy]

I roll with True Neutral.

"Whatever works."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.

Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.

Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.

Well, if you're going to take 3 Nanoha characters and put them in the three evil slots... Jail and Precia are the first two obvious picks - I mean, relative to the other characters, they're evil. The other pick made is probably the most evil of the remaining options.

[AzoLto]

Part of Nanoha's maturity and composure is, in my opinion, due to the way she was raised. She herself said that she had a lot of personal time as a child (if I recall correctly) because she wanted to keep out of her family's way. Lots of personal time results in lots of introspection and time spent doing things by yourself, experiencing things by yourself. This is probably why she is considered 'wise beyond her years'. She simply experienced a lot more of the world than most people her age would. You'd be surprise how a bit of personal time could affect you...

Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by AzoLto

Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?

A LOT of anime and manga characters seem to follow that.

But, yes, Nanoha is rather... Well, dense when it comes to certain character interactions, isn't she?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by AzoLto

Part of Nanoha's maturity and composure is, in my opinion, due to the way she was raised. She herself said that she had a lot of personal time as a child (if I recall correctly) because she wanted to keep out of her family's way. Lots of personal time results in lots of introspection and time spent doing things by yourself, experiencing things by yourself. This is probably why she is considered 'wise beyond her years'. She simply experienced a lot more of the world than most people her age would. You'd be surprise how a bit of personal time could affect you...

An already mature person, yes. However a child would not magically become more mature if left alone. Quite contrary, the mind of a child adjusts and grows by mimicking what she sees around herself. Yes, she would certainly learn, but not nearly as much as with a family around her, and not the right things either. So technically, Nanoha should have been less mature by being alone for so long. She'd have learned basic things, but more advanced things could only have come from interaction.

Of course, as I said before, this is anime. A magical girl anime. Mature young girls are a staple of the genre. I mean, Nanoha aside, Hayate has been living alone for who-knows-how-long. A nine year old? A weelchair bound nine year old? Living alone? In a well fairing city?

Yeah. Realism went out the window there. So lets not bother trying to bring it back.

Originally Posted by AzoLto

Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?

But then, that's why we love her, right?

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Keroko

An already mature person, yes. However a child would not magically become more mature if left alone. Quite contrary, the mind of a child adjusts and grows by mimicking what she sees around herself. Yes, she would certainly learn, but not nearly as much as with a family around her, and not the right things either. So technically, Nanoha should have been less mature by being alone for so long. She'd have learned basic things, but more advanced things could only have come from interaction.

Of course, as I said before, this is anime. A magical girl anime. Mature young girls are a staple of the genre. I mean, Nanoha aside, Hayate has been living alone for who-knows-how-long. A nine year old? A weelchair bound nine year old? Living alone? In a well fairing city?

Yeah. Realism went out the window there. So lets not bother trying to bring it back.

And Keroko-kun once again wins the Golden Apple of The Best Argument *Nods in approval* I agree with all the above.

Originally Posted by Keroko

But then, that's why we love her, right?

"Only a lack of restraint truly shows Nanoha-level quality" - StrikerS Nano #82 "Arrest It"

[Takamura Mamoru]

I like Signum and Fate best.. Both equally.

[Rising Dragon]

Which alignment would the Automatic Defense Program of the Book of Darkness represent?

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Which alignment would the Automatic Defense Program of the Book of Darkness represent?

I'd say Chaotic Neutral. It basically goes out of control and blows stuff up without any real rhyme or reason (except in those first few moments where it exists solely to carry out the last "blow specific stuff up" wish of its master, where it might be Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Evil, depending on how you choose to interpret "it follows exactly what its leader says to do regardless of external morality"--I'd argue the former). Either that or it would be "Non-aligned" (2nd Edition) because in its insane mode it has no real intelligence, acting just as a force of nature more than a personality.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Riika

Okay, first of all, being neglected, if only for a few years and with perfectly valid reasons, can lead to severe issues concerning a child's development and can force them to mature early to compensate and try to understand what's going on around them. Let's also remember that Nanoha's siblings seem to be quite older than her, which makes matters worse. In season 1 she was basically forced into a situation where either she got smart and learned as fast as she could on-the-go or she was killed either by rampaging Jewel Seed-turned-monster or by an unrelenting Fate, who at the time, would've done anything to make her mother happy.

Oh, this must be what you mean over in the other thread...

Okay, the problem here is you're arguing the quality of the character based on the results. I'm sure a bunch of folks in the Military, Authority, and Decisions thread would plotz if I made the argument that Hayate's tactics were brilliant in the final battle because they resulted in all the villains being captured except for Due and Zest, the Cradle stopped, the city of Cranagan largely protected, all the kidnap victims (Ginga, Vivio, Megane) recovered alive, well, and de-brainwashed, and nobody getting killed except for Regius Gaiz (whom I would argue that Due should have gutted him, tied his intestines to his desk, and kicked him out the window while he was still alive...but I really, really don't like Gaiz and that's not the topic here anyway).

You're right: Nanoha was thrown into a situation where she had to adapt fast or get killed. The point is, most nine-year-old kids in her situation would...get killed. I know that I would have. Heck, Yuuno would have--that's why he needed Nanoha's help in the first place. Nanoha, on the other hand, thrived. She picked up the pointy blasting stick and never looked back.

Also, what Nanoha hammered into Teana was that pushing herself was bad, especially if you have no reason whatsoever to do so. Teana was being plain dumb at the time, she had yet to grow up and realize that when you push yourself to your limits and beyond it should be when no other options are left to you. It most certainly wasn't the case in that mock battle.

Please note: I'm in no way arguing with Nanoha's advice to her students. It's good advice. This is particularly the case with Tia, who was pushing herself to try and exceed the limits of safe tactical combat (zapping Subaru, for example, in the Augusta Hotel battle) solely because she had an inferiority complex about being surrounded by S-ranks and artificial mages and combat cyborgs and dragon summoners.

If Nanoha has forced herself over what her limits usually would be, she did it for the sake of someone, always with a reason and when no other options were left. So please explain to me how exactly does 'don't push yourself for useless reasons' not apply to herself?

Simple. I didn't say that and I'm not going to argue in favor of it. What I'm pointing out is that Nanoha does not follow "push yourself for no reason"--her "zenryoku zenkai" philosophy is just that: all out, all the time. That's how she developed Starlight Breaker Plus, by going to full strength in a training session (A's manga). By StrikerS it's said that she learned her lesson from when she was nearly killed, but she doesn't act that way when she goes into battle (though--I will point out that we're not presented with situations where she can hold back, as you do point out).

I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.

(This, by the way, is why she has her limiter back in my "Steel Queen Chronicle" series of fics.)

BTW: I love your writing

Thank you!

Exactly.

What Nanoha has is not maturity, it's incredible stubbornnes, unrealistic optimism and maybe a lack of common sense. She has the bad habit of trying to get the other party to explain themselves and to settle things by talking. While this could be considered something 'mature', I view it as further proof of her childishness and of her not having grown up at all. She believes that with stubborn determination and by letting the enemy explain themselves, things can be solved. If that were the case there would be no need for the police, the army or in this case, the TSAB. Only children and naive people believe such things.

Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.

It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.

Plus, I don't recall Nanoha being all happy and going "LOOK AT ME, I'M KICKING MONSTER ASS!" in her first fight. If I remember correctly, she was confused and didn't really know what happened, needed a lot of coaching and while, yes she had a lot of magical potential, she was extremely clumsy with it at first.

It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.

Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.

You said so yourself, "THEY" don't act their age. If it's a standard in the Nanoha universe then it's not at all weird for Nanoha to be overly mature at such a young age. Every other kid her age is like that so why bash only her?

Continuing the trope-speak, it's because while everybody gets a handwave as to why they're overly mature in the face of danger, only Nanoha's is weak enough to make my suspension of disbelief go into eyeroll mode.

I think that's one reason why I strongly accept the idea that Triangle Heart 3 is canon except where specifically contradicted (Shiro living, Lindy and Chrono's roles, etc.). Nanoha's character makes so much more sense if you first accept that she's the child of a clan of ninja bodyguards.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The way I see it, none of the Nanoha leading ladies act wise at all. Most of them act in ways that actual soldiers would sooner eat a bullet from their own gun. They succeed in part because of their youthful naivete, their bizarre lack of fear and insane optimism.

MGLN is just the weirdest cross-genre mash-up ever, and I think it really explains some of the head-scratchers.

The setting is basically traditional sci-fi, other than the use of magitek as opposed to merely sufficiently advanced technology.

The battles and plots are basically super-robot show. Willpower and HOT-BLOODED fighting spirit, energy blasts out the wazoo, bigger and badder explosions everywhere you look.

The ethos of the series is where the "Magical Girl" still comes in. More than half of the antagonists end up switching sides. And as far as I can tell, the only member of the opposition who doesn't have at least a certain sympathetic motivation is Quattro. (Precia is certifiably insane, driven out of her mind by grief and (very likely) guilt--she needs institutionalization and therapy. Jail is equally insane and was apparently programmed that way; he had no choice than to be what he is--and he's still a functional "team dad" for the Numbers. Gaiz, much as I hate him, was originally motivated by idealism and a desire to cure a social ill and to prevent the deaths of innocents. Uno, Due, and Tre are loyal followers of Jail's cause--they're more like political enemies rather than genuine bad guys.) Ultimately, it's The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship cranked to max which carry the day as the underlying narrative principles.

The Wolkenritter have more of an excuse than most--those knightly types are all about Honor Before Reason, after all--but nearly everyone in the show has the same kind of personalities as characters in a Super Robot or magical-girl anime. They're all running more on BURNING SPIRIT or ridiculous optimism than anything else.

See above point. That's...the universe they live in.

And for the record, I don't consider Jail to be truly black-on-black evil. Whilst I despise using the AD&D alignment system, Jail flipflops between Pet the Dog, Kick the Dog and Rape the Dog moments so often and so frequently that one wonders how anyone could think he's anything but majorly chaotic--and majorly insane. But then again, most mad scientists are, in fact, mad.

Agree completely. Just when you think he's a complete monster, he does something nice. Just when you think he might be redeemable, he does something that makes you boggle in shock and/or disgust.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Love the Superman comparison! I definitely view Nanoha as very Superman-esque.

Heh; when I was discussing Nanoha's idealism with RadiantBeam for the "Shadows" series, I actually used Superman to describe Nanoha's POV in the examples...

Nanoha's a touch too calm, wise, and mature for her age (intelligence is debatable - if what her school teaches is any indication, it's ahead of where most North American elementary students are at; so many nine year old Japanese girls really are this well-educated).

That's education--her intelligence is better reflected by the fact that she's at or near the top of her class in everything.

However, Nanoha being a bit too competent is much better than what I've normally found with magical girls - very clutzy, very immature, easily frightened, takes forever to get used to their powers, some of them even hate having super powers, etc...

Nanoha's competency and strength of character is a breath of fresh air for the magical girl genre.

Very, very true.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Jail wasn't really enjoying Vivio's pain, but more the completion of his experiments. I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear Vivio's screams.

Quattro did though. And she reveled in it.

Right. Quattro, I've always thought, is the one, single character in all three anime series who's a complete villain to the core without any redeeming or sympathetic features whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, if you're going to take 3 Nanoha characters and put them in the three evil slots... Jail and Precia are the first two obvious picks - I mean, relative to the other characters, they're evil. The other pick made is probably the most evil of the remaining options.

See previous comment. Quattro, followed by Jail, followed by Precia (because Precia is completely insane and insanity definitely affects the kind of moral function required for insanity). I think that the examples given (Gaiz = LE, Jail = NE, Quattro/Precia = CE) are well-chosen. Though I'd say Uno should be LE instead of NE, since she never shows any sign of backstabbing Jail or having any contradictory agenda. Not sure about Due; we don't get to see enough of her.

Originally Posted by AzoLto

Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?

This is turning into one of my buttons. "Mention befriending and watch DezoPenguin" jump! Maybe it should be a party trick...

That being said, while the whole "befriend them until unconscious" gag is funny in gags or the Nano comics or whatever, when seriously discussing canon, it's not even true. The list of people Nanoha "befriended" in the "beat them up to become friends" sense is exactly two:

Arisa (slapped in defense of Suzuka)

Fate (this one we know )

Everyone else...just didn't happen. Vita never gets smacked down by Nanoha (that buster got blocked by Aria, and they never fight on opposite sides again). Hayate never fights her at all (remember that Reinforce pointed out that the Reinforce that was fighting Nanoha and Fate was the defense program, not her or a unisoned Hayate). And Vivio was already her friend when she got nuked ("Mommy, please get this nasty Lost Logia that's allowing the Cradle's computer to manipulate my body in battle out of me so we can go home!").

Okay...Dieci can get an honorable mention for getting blasted and switching sides, though there was no talking between her and Nanoha either before or after IIRC. So she's more like "having doubt instilled by being disgusted by Quattro" instead of "having doubt instilled by Nanoha's initial talk" followed by "zapped by Nanoha" followed by "becoming family with Subaru and friends with Tia and Vivio and the second gen." instead of "becoming friends with Nanoha."

[Takamura Mamoru]

I'm not sure what the Automatic Defense Program is, right now.
Is it the ugly mass of tentacles and eyes or is it the "outside Reinforce"?

Because the mass doesn't really have a mind, it doesn't have an alignment either.
Animals are usually Neutral (Because they don't know good or bad) but I don't think a mindless program can have an alignment.

Reinforce, I'd say is Neutral.

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

I'm not sure what the Automatic Defense Program is, right now.
Is it the ugly mass of tentacles and eyes or is it the "outside Reinforce"?

It's both, actually.

The "outside Reinforce" is the Automatic Defense Program when first activated. The tentacular mass is the Automatic Defense Program when it goes out of control.

[synaesthetic]

Quattro's complete bastardry is a lot of why I dig her the same way I dig Ali Al Saachez.

They're both utterly amoral evil bastards and we like them that way, dammit!

[Takamura Mamoru]

Ah now I remember. The inside Reinforce had some control over the outside Reinforce, but not when it went berserk.

So I'll stick to "it doesn't have an alignment".


To Nanoha, I think she acts very much on her own. She's not like Fate.
She definitely has some negative qualities, like stubbornness.
I don't think she knows her limits.

However, I wouldn't say she's chaotic. She does stuff her own way, but it rarely interferes with the law. I think she cares about laws and doesn't want to interfere with them, but at the same time she's just so much better working on her own rules. As if it's her natural field. However, she doesn't really know her limits. Event between A's and StrikerS..

Nanoha is a beast in chains. She needs those chains, she knows she needs those chains, but she can't help but want to go wild all she wants.

As I said in the Image Thread, Nanoha mainly cares about persons, anyway.

Neutral Good is a pretty fitting alignment for her. When I think about her like this, I never noticed she's such an interesting character.

Quattro is your textbook Smug Snake. I fucking hate her and rage at her.
While she's not as EVIL as Precia, she's a far bigger BITCH.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.

That's not quite it. I think that Nanoha is willing to make personal sacrifices that she's not prepared to expect others to make. It's not a case of hypocrisy - it's more a matter of how Nanoha is willing to go all out and put her life on the line to a great degree, but she's not willing to expect Subaru or Teana (or any of her subordinates) to do the same to quite the same degree.

Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.

Good point. Again, I'd actually go a bit farther.

Nanoha likes to feel out, so to speak, her enemies before taking decisive action against them. This is a bit risky, but she has enough faith in her Raising Heart weapon, in her automatic flash-steps, and in her friends and allies, to think that she can survive the risk.

Nanoha is a major risk-taker - she'll risk her life and villains getting away for the sake of her ideals. This is another way in which she is like Superman.

Nanoha sizes up her enemies - looks them in the eyes, reads their body language, evaluates their words, etc... and pretty reasonably judges from there how likely her enemies are at being reformed.

Fate's "sad eyes" and largely straightforward and non-taunting/non-abusive words gave Nanoha the correct impression of a young girl in a very painful situation who is being driven by that situation (and not by any inherent immoral nature within her) to engage in questionable acts. Nanoha could correctly tell that Fate really, really didn't want to have to go so far as to kill or severely maim Nanoha. She could also tell that Fate had a distinct good side to her.

It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.

Precisely. In my view, it's a prudent course for somebody with Nanoha's level of power to take - feel people out, and see if they can be talked down.

It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.

Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.

And this is where a great deal of the beauty and greatness of this anime comes from. In an era (since Shinji Ikari in NGE) of typically angst-filled anime main protagonists, Nanoha is, once again, a breath of fresh air. The very fact that Teana's rather mild emo moments gained such notoriety for awhile is testament to the fact that this anime franchise does not rely on angsting to provide good drama. That's great to see.

See previous comment. Quattro, followed by Jail, followed by Precia (because Precia is completely insane and insanity definitely affects the kind of moral function required for insanity). I think that the examples given (Gaiz = LE, Jail = NE, Quattro/Precia = CE) are well-chosen. Though I'd say Uno should be LE instead of NE, since she never shows any sign of backstabbing Jail or having any contradictory agenda. Not sure about Due; we don't get to see enough of her.

Good points. I had forgotten about Quattro when I suggested that Jail and Precia were the most evil of all the Nanoha characters. Quattro is indeed more evil than even them. However, Jail and Precia are more prominent, so... like yourself, I think that the evil slots were well-chosen.

Anyway, your lengthy multi-reply post was simply awesome.

An awful lot of great points, with maybe only one or two things that I might be somewhat in disagreement over. Your approach to Nanoha is very close to my own.

Nice talking to you.

[Takamura Mamoru]

About the True Art Is Angsty comment... I find Nanoha a special case as there's quite a lot shit happening to the characters (Fate is a major example), but the anime stays fiercly idealistic.

Everyone's life has worth, even if you're a clone created as a plaything by an insane sociopath of a mother. And even if you're Clone Jesus, you'll still love your mother.

What I want to say is that either you have cynical shows or you have idealistic shows in which there's barely any angst, with much more COURAGE. Nanoha is different in that regard.