(L) Fullmetal Alchemist Manga Discussion

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kayin

A) Everyone gets revived.
B) Only select souls get revived (like Winry)
C) Everyone gets revived, but alchemy is gone forever and mankind is left to themselves
D) Same as C, only with the select few B ending
F) Father ends up becoming the new God and rules everything

G) A majority of souls (but random, not necessarily including Winry, etc.) get revived, and Amestrian alchemy is gone forever (but Xingian alchemy is still usable).

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

G) A majority of souls (but random, not necessarily including Winry, etc.) get revived, and Amestrian alchemy is gone forever (but Xingian alchemy is still usable).

Actually, that seems quite reasonable and could really happen. Amestrian alchemy seems to rely on the energy generated by the Earth's surface. The transmutation circle probably absorbed all of that energy, effectively making Amestrian alchemy inxistent. Such a thing happened to Xerxes, but not in Xing, so it is quite possible this could happen, and Xingese alchemy is eventually brought over to Amestris as well. If Winry is revived, I'm willing to bet she'll even learn to use it to follow her parent's footsteps and take their medical practice to the next level.

[Krazzy Angel]

Originally Posted by Kayin

A) Everyone gets revived.
B) Only select souls get revived (like Winry)
C) Everyone gets revived, but alchemy is gone forever and mankind is left to themselves
D) Same as C, only with the select few B ending
F) Father ends up becoming the new God and rules everything

C) I would like to see Ed and Al doing something than state alchemist in their lives.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by Krazzy Angel

C) I would like to see Ed and Al doing something than state alchemist in their lives.

If they survive, I actually see either Ed or Al staying in the military and helping to create a new and better army. The whole country is going to be in a state of disarray after all of this and Ed already has a decent ranking. If Mustang or Armstrong took control, Ed would be an ideal pick for a general. They trust him, he has had extensive military background, Ed would be a war hero as well, and people tend to like him.

[Orangejellosphere]

Concerning Amestrian alchemy: Is it really powered by the movement of the Earth's crust? I was under the impression that this was just a front, and Father was behind it somehow. (I thought he was using the souls of Xerxians and some Amestrians to fuel alchemy.)

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Orangejellosphere

Concerning Amestrian alchemy: Is it really powered by the movement of the Earth's crust? I was under the impression that this was just a front, and Father was behind it somehow. (I thought he was using the souls of Xerxians and some Amestrians to fuel alchemy.)

That's the impression I've gotten. In fact, if that's the case, I wouldn't rule out Xingian alchemy being destroyed as well on the supposition that it's being similarly powered by Mei's "golden haired/eyed alchemist" from episode 41 (Hohenheim).

[Vicious108]

I thought Father could be behind it too, but alchemy already existed before he was around, so how could that be...?

Well we should find out soon I think. Only a few days till 105 comes out now. In fact it's about time I get the hell out of here before spoilers start showing up. >_>

[Tsuyoshi]

If Xingese alchemy was powered by Hohenheim, then how are they still able to use it when Hohenheim doesn't seem to have been around there for a long while? That's why I'm skeptical on the theory that Father is powering Amestrian alchemy. Also, if Father and Hohenheim were respectively powering alchemy in Amestris an Xing, then by that logic, alchemy isn't possible without the power of the philosopher's stone. But it was alchemy that created the philosopher's stone in the first place, so it can't be the case that Father is powering Amestrian alchemy and similarly with Hohenheim and Xingese alchemy. Alchemy existed in Xerxes long before the creation of the stones. What Hohenheim and Father did in Xing and Amestris was to teach its citizens to use Alchemy. However, where Hohenheim taught alchemy to help the people, Father taught alchemy for his own goal.

[babohtea]

It has been stated in the manga already that Xingese alchemy is powered by the Tectonic movements of the earth's crust.

The Xerxian alchemy might have been powered by something else entirely, but it is true that Father powered Armestrian alchemy.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by babohtea

It has been stated in the manga already that Xingese alchemy is powered by the Tectonic movements of the earth's crust.

The Xerxian alchemy might have been powered by something else entirely, but it is true that Father powered Armestrian alchemy.

Bzzzt! It's been stated by Mei that Rentanjutsu is powered by the flow of the "Dragon's Veins" or something like that. She was trying to get Al to sense them back in episode 43. It was stated by Marcoh that Renkinjutsu is the one that is powered by tectonics. Chapter 67, pg 31-34.

Just because Father was lying to all the original Amestrian alchemists back when he was the "Eastern Alchemist" and taught them all Renkinjutsu, doesn't mean that Hohenheim, the "Golden Alchemist", wasn't lying to the Xingese as well. My guess is that Xerxian alchemy was a combination of both, using a third power (Heart!). That's what people will have to go back to using after Father is defeated and Hohenheim is whacked in the process. Luckily, Scar's brother rediscovered it.

[babohtea]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Bzzzt! It's been stated by Mei that Rentanjutsu is powered by the flow of the "Dragon's Veins" or something like that. She was trying to get Al to sense them back in episode 43. It was stated by Marcoh that Renkinjutsu is the one that is powered by tectonics. Chapter 67, pg 31-34.

Just because Father was lying to all the original Amestrian alchemists back when he was the "Eastern Alchemist" and taught them all Renkinjutsu, doesn't mean that Hohenheim, the "Golden Alchemist", wasn't lying to the Xingese as well. My guess is that Xerxian alchemy was a combination of both, using a third power (Heart!). That's what people will have to go back to using after Father is defeated and Hohenheim is whacked in the process. Luckily, Scar's brother rediscovered it.

Woops my bad. The power of the "dragons veins" though I assumed was the exact same thing. Here's my logic if anyone cares:

Xerxes alchemists use plate tectonics, philosopher's stone is created and Xerxes is destroyed.
Father convinces Europe(or whatever) that alchemy is based off of plate tectonics, but really uses himself.
Hohenheim teaches the Xing what he knows of alchemy, which was based off of plate tectonics as well, but it becomes called "dragon veins", because they also called Hohenheim "gold man".

Any other ideas as to what "veins of the dragon" really means? The force that "renews the earth" isn't exactly descriptive.

[Ziziphus]

I always think that Xingese alchemy is the same kind of alchemy originally practiced in Xerxes, and it's the true alchemy which uses the energy of the earth ("dragon veins" as they call it). Only Amestrian alchemy is the false one brought by Father and is powered by his PS. So only Father is lying, and Hoheneheim isn't.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Do we even know if Hohenheim ever went to Xing?

In chapter 75, when Hohenheim uses healing alchemy on Izumi, he says it's a Xingese skill, so one can assume he has been to Xing.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by babohtea

It has been stated in the manga already that Xingese alchemy is powered by the Tectonic movements of the earth's crust.

Someone mentioned it already, but you're mistaking Xingese alchemy with Amestrian alchemy.

Originally Posted by babohtea

The Xerxian alchemy might have been powered by something else entirely, but it is true that Father powered Armestrian alchemy. Here's my logic if anyone cares:

Xerxes alchemists use plate tectonics, philosopher's stone is created and Xerxes is destroyed.
Father convinces Europe(or whatever) that alchemy is based off of plate tectonics, but really uses himself.
Hohenheim teaches the Xing what he knows of alchemy, which was based off of plate tectonics as well, but it becomes called "dragon veins", because they also called Hohenheim "gold man".

As someone already mentioned, Xingese alchemy is a modified version of the alchemy that was brought to them by the Golden Alchemist. That said, there's quite a good reason to assume that Amestrian alchemy is quite similar if not the same as Xerxian alchemy. Therefore, considering they are very similar, how is it that it's only possible for Amestrians to use alchemy so long as father is around? Why would everyone be so desperate to get their hands on the philosopher's stone if their alchemy was already originating from it?

Even if father's presence plays a part in it, I don't think it's completely impossible for Amestrians to use alchemy without Father's presence. The Xerxians did it, so why not Amestrians? Amestrians are taught to use the energy of the Earth's surface to generate the power they need for their Alchemy. The amount of energy generated from the surface is already quite large. They don't need Father's energy for that.

Also, if you believe Father's presence is the source of Amestrian alchemy because said alchemy doesn't work on him, think of it this way: Father was supposedly the one to teach Amestrians his brand of Alchemy. Surely, he would know a way to render it ineffective against himself.

One more thing. If you want to believe Father is the source of the energy used for Amestrian alchemy, that would imply there is no energy created by the earth's surface on Amestrian land. That itself is illogical. Additionally, when Father disabled Alchemy when he first encountered Ed and Al, Scar and Mai wouldn't have been able to use Alchemy either because their only source of energy was gone too.

Originally Posted by babohtea

Any other ideas as to what "veins of the dragon" really means? The force that "renews the earth" isn't exactly descriptive.

Scar's brother explained it to some extent. It's the energy that connects all living things together. Each person will affect the other, their feelings and emotions, their actions. This energy can be positive or negative. If one person displayes positive feelings, it will affect other people around him positively, uniting them into a single, massive positive emotion. It's quite vague the way I explain it, I know but if you're aware of Star Wars, it's actually quite similar to the force.

Originally Posted by Ziziphus

In chapter 75, when Hohenheim uses healing alchemy on Izumi, he says it's a Xingese skill, so one can assume he has been to Xing.

Not to mention the Xingese rescued Hohenheim while he was in the desert. I've always thought this was right after the incident in Xerxes because he was speaking to all the souls trapped in his philosopher's stone, trying to sway them and calm them.

[babohtea]

May has commented that "the force underneath the land of Armestris" felt like an big bundle of anguish. Later, it is inferred that this source is actually made up of Father's philosopher stone souls (because Ed made the same comment about Envy's body).

It's quite likely that people in Armestris have learned how to use Father's souls, rather than the earth's tectonic movements as they believed. Even if similar power supplies are there, alchemists would have to relearn how to use that energy. Maybe there's some American civilzation that uses the heat of the earth's core for their alchemy, or another nation that uses the Sun's enormous potential etc. That energy's still there, but you can't freely switch unless you know how.

Remember when Al was trying to learn Xingese alchemy? How about when Ed was trying to learn how to utilize his life energy? It wasn't just changing a couple of strokes on the alchemy circle, it required an entire paradigm shift.

[Kayin]

What the homunculus are in FMA is human sin made into a living being (hence the reason why the first homunculus came from Hohenheim's blood). In Christianity, sin is the "knowledge of good an evil", and is a power that man can't control. When manifested, sin always tries to "become God", or have an equal amount of power. I predicted Father's intentions when I first read about him in the manga since this was the obvious allegory the author was going for.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

As someone already mentioned, Xingese alchemy is a modified version of the alchemy that was brought to them by the Golden Alchemist. That said, there's quite a good reason to assume that Amestrian alchemy is quite similar if not the same as Xerxian alchemy. Therefore, considering they are very similar, how is it that it's only possible for Amestrians to use alchemy so long as father is around? Why would everyone be so desperate to get their hands on the philosopher's stone if their alchemy was already originating from it?

Similar doesn't mean the same if one can divert the source of the power. And no one knows that all Amestrian alchemy is being pulled from Father's Philosopher Stone body. They just think it's from tectonics. See below.

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Even if father's presence plays a part in it, I don't think it's completely impossible for Amestrians to use alchemy without Father's presence. The Xerxians did it, so why not Amestrians? Amestrians are taught to use the energy of the Earth's surface to generate the power they need for their Alchemy. The amount of energy generated from the surface is already quite large. They don't need Father's energy for that.

Correction: Amestrians are told they're using the energy of tectonics to generate the power for alchemy. Very important distinction. See below.

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Also, if you believe Father's presence is the source of Amestrian alchemy because said alchemy doesn't work on him, think of it this way: Father was supposedly the one to teach Amestrians his brand of Alchemy. Surely, he would know a way to render it ineffective against himself.

Possible, but not necessarily true. See below.

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

One more thing. If you want to believe Father is the source of the energy used for Amestrian alchemy, that would imply there is no energy created by the earth's surface on Amestrian land. That itself is illogical. Additionally, when Father disabled Alchemy when he first encountered Ed and Al, Scar and Mai wouldn't have been able to use Alchemy either because their only source of energy was gone too.

Part the first: that is completely mangled logic. Just because the source Amestrians are really getting their alchemy from (Father) is not the one they think it is (tectonics), doesn't mean the latter doesn't exist. It's just not where they're getting the power. After Marcoh explains to Mei where Amestrians get the power for alchemy, she suggests he's wrong, and that the energy she felt beneath her feet since entering the country is "people withering in agony" (obviously Philosopher Stone souls). I postulate that the equation Marcoh mentions in chapter 67, page 34, that was "discovered over 350 years ago" most likely pulls power not from tectonics, like they think, but from Father instead.

Part the second: whether or not you believe that Father is the source of all Amestrian alchemy, neither Mei (Xingese) nor Scar (likely Xerxian-derived) use Amestrian alchemy, so Father disabling Amestrian alchemy (cutting himself off as a source of power, I would say) has no effect on them, since they're getting their power from different sources (Dragon's Veins and likely actual tectonics, I'd guess, respectively.)

In short, I feel it's quite possible that Xerxian alchemy pulled power from tectonics. After Father came to Amestris, he mangled the equation for accessing that power so that it pulled power from him instead. Xingese alchemy has its own source, whatever that is, and Scar's brother's alchemy, in all likelihood, is closer to original Xerxian alchemy, pulling power again from tectonics.

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Not to mention the Xingese rescued Hohenheim while he was in the desert. I've always thought this was right after the incident in Xerxes because he was speaking to all the souls trapped in his philosopher's stone, trying to sway them and calm them.

Source please? Not that I don't believe you, I fully agree that Hohenheim went to the Xingese to teach them alchemy. I just don't remember that incident.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by babohtea...

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Part the first: that is completely mangled logic. Just because the source Amestrians are really getting their alchemy from (Father) is not the one they think it is (tectonics), doesn't mean the latter doesn't exist. It's just not where they're getting the power. After Marcoh explains to Mei where Amestrians get the power for alchemy, she suggests he's wrong, and that the energy she felt beneath her feet since entering the country is "people withering in agony" (obviously Philosopher Stone souls). I postulate that the equation Marcoh mentions in chapter 67, page 34, that was "discovered over 350 years ago" most likely pulls power not from tectonics, like they think, but from Father instead.

I'll admit I was wrong to say that Amestrian alchemy does not come from father, but at the same time, I don't believe that's the exclusive source of heir alchemy. It's hard to believe that Amestrians were simply told the energy for their alchemy came from tectonics when it's actually coming from father. Consider that the one who taught them alchemy, most likel Father, taught them alchemy in such a fashion that the energy they use comes from the earth's surface. They were taught the theory for using tectonics, so when Father disabled alchemy for Amestris, the Amestrians should've been able to still use alchemy like normal because they are used to the theory involving tectonics. That's why I think Father did something more than just simply cut his energy off from Amestris.

And also, I want to emphasize that if Father is the source of energy for Amestrian alchemy, then that would mean Amestrians have access to a virtually infinite amount of energy and would be capable of anything, such as bypassing the law of equivalent exchange. The reason for that is because whenever they use alchemy, they are using the philosopher's stone. If that is true, I really do not understand why everyone is chasing after smaller stones so desperately.

And about the equation from chapter 67, there's no real evidence that the equation pulls power from Father rather than tectonics. If anything, what would make sense is that Father is supplying energy to the earth's crust within Amestris, and Amestrians are using the energy in the earth's surface (which comes from father) for their alchemy, but there is no direct link between Father and Amestrian alchemy.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Part the second: whether or not you believe that Father is the source of all Amestrian alchemy, neither Mei (Xingese) nor Scar (likely Xerxian-derived) use Amestrian alchemy, so Father disabling Amestrian alchemy (cutting himself off as a source of power, I would say) has no effect on them, since they're getting their power from different sources (Dragon's Veins and likely actual tectonics, I'd guess, respectively.)

I think the dragon's veins are much more than that. Xingese alchemy involves a lot of human transmutation. We've seen Scar do it muliple times, and Xingese alchemy is capable of doing such things like stop blood from seeping out of wounds. There's a reason why human transmutation using amestrian alchemy is a no go. Pure energy from tectonics (or Father if you'd rather believe that) has been proven not to work on human transmutation unless you have an actual philosopher's stone. Once again, if Father is the source of energy, Amestrians essentially have access to the philosopher's stone at all times. If that were the case, human transmutation would not be a problem at all. So the way I see it, there is much more to Xingese alchemy than simple plate tectonics. As babohtea, Ed had to completely shift paradigm in order to heal himself by using his life energy. There's definitely something different about Xingese alchemy.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Source please? Not that I don't believe you, I fully agree that Hohenheim went to the Xingese to teach them alchemy. I just don't remember that incident.

Chapter 97, pages 2 to 5

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

I'll admit I was wrong to say that Amestrian alchemy does not come from father, but at the same time, I don't believe that's the exclusive source of heir alchemy. It's hard to believe that Amestrians were simply told the energy for their alchemy came from tectonics when it's actually coming from father. Consider that the one who taught them alchemy, most likel Father, taught them alchemy in such a fashion that the energy they use comes from the earth's surface. They were taught the theory for using tectonics, so when Father disabled alchemy for Amestris, the Amestrians should've been able to still use alchemy like normal because they are used to the theory involving tectonics. That's why I think Father did something more than just simply cut his energy off from Amestris.

You misunderstand my timeline of events. The Amestrians didn't learn alchemy before Father showed up, and neither did he teach them alchemy until after he'd already set it up so that the power came from him. They've never known any way to pull the power for alchemy but from him. It's the whole basis for their alchemy. The "equation" Marcoh mentioned can't pull power from tectonics, only from Father. When Father shuts off the faucet, they can't do anything.

It's like AOL. People who use AOL think they're on the internet, when in actuality they're on a big proxy server that AOL runs that serves pages as the user requests them. If AOL goes down, or for some reason doesn't serve the page they are looking for, they get nothing. About that last part...

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

And also, I want to emphasize that if Father is the source of energy for Amestrian alchemy, then that would mean Amestrians have access to a virtually infinite amount of energy and would be capable of anything, such as bypassing the law of equivalent exchange. The reason for that is because whenever they use alchemy, they are using the philosopher's stone. If that is true, I really do not understand why everyone is chasing after smaller stones so desperately.

[...]

I think the dragon's veins are much more than that. Xingese alchemy involves a lot of human transmutation. We've seen Scar do it muliple times, and Xingese alchemy is capable of doing such things like stop blood from seeping out of wounds. There's a reason why human transmutation using amestrian alchemy is a no go. Pure energy from tectonics (or Father if you'd rather believe that) has been proven not to work on human transmutation unless you have an actual philosopher's stone. Once again, if Father is the source of energy, Amestrians essentially have access to the philosopher's stone at all times. If that were the case, human transmutation would not be a problem at all. So the way I see it, there is much more to Xingese alchemy than simple plate tectonics. As babohtea, Ed had to completely shift paradigm in order to heal himself by using his life energy. There's definitely something different about Xingese alchemy.

You're right that the Amestrians don't have access to a near-infinite power to perform alchemy. Father keeps them locked out of the higher levels of power that direct use of a Philosopher Stone allows. His proxy servers don't allow access to those sites, so to speak. If Amestrians were able to do so, it would create a problem for Father's power base. That's the whole reason he created "Amestrian Alchemy" in the first place, was power. Power to get him to the point where he is now.

By requiring that any alchemist who was planning to use human transmutation go outside of the alchemic laws that he laid down ("outside" likely meaning the bits and pieces of Xerxian alchemy he allowed to stick around, explaining why Ed recognized the Xerxian Philosopher Stone array) he ensured that those alchemists would be strong enough of will and intelligence to gain access to the Gate, and eventually be used to power the country-wide array.

And we've yet to see anyone who didn't gain the knowledge otherwise use a Philosopher Stone for true human transmutation. Using alchemy on humans is not "human transmutation". Healing a few wounds here and making a few incendiary Ishbalans there isn't it. If it were, Kimblee back during the Ishbal War would have been a human sacrifice candidate thanks to his penchant for making human explosives. Human transmutation is transmutation of the soul. Not of the body, and not just by using souls (ie: a Philosopher Stone). When Ed used the souls in Envy to open the Gate, he was using the abilities and knowledge he learned when he tried to resurrect his mother. He transmuted his body into a different (but physically the same) body and affixed his soul to that (technically) new body. When he used a bit of his own soul as a mini Philosopher Stone to heal himself, he was only healing that body. Closing holes and rearranging meat. The former took him to the Gate, the latter did not.

A Philosopher Stone is only a secondary, if potent, form of power. It doesn't raise your knowledge or help you do things you couldn't do already (like open the Gate) but it does make what you already know how to do much easier, and can let you violate the Rule of Equivalent Exchange regarding material. The ability has to come from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Chapter 97, pages 2 to 5

Thank you. I remember now.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I kind of wonder how some of you can even start to question, that the Amestrians get their energy from tectonic movements.
It was clearly shown, that father transmutated the earth's crust and therefore stopped the tectonic movements, when he disabled the alchemy in Amestris. So if transmuting the earth cuts of the energy, it's the only and most obvious conclusion, that the energy does come from the ground.

We question it because the author quite obviously wants us to question it, or else she wouldn't have had the "outside observer" character (Mei) call it into question. Father had been quite easily transmuting without moving a muscle, so just shutting off tectonic power in the area of Central, even if it were possible to shut off such a large scale effect in the comparatively small area of a city, or even a country the size of Amestris, for that matter, wouldn't have required him to move either. Obviously he did so for some other reason.

[Ziziphus]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

In short, I feel it's quite possible that Xerxian alchemy pulled power from tectonics. After Father came to Amestris, he mangled the equation for accessing that power so that it pulled power from him instead. Xingese alchemy has its own source, whatever that is, and Scar's brother's alchemy, in all likelihood, is closer to original Xerxian alchemy, pulling power again from tectonics.

Now that I think about it, it all makes sense this way. But now I kind of wonder how come Hohenheim seems to know nothing about the kind of alchemy Amestris is using. I mean he has tons of alchemy books at home, he should know there's something odd about the alchemy they're teaching...Or he simply just collects them and doesn't read.^^;

Originally Posted by The Small One

I kind of wonder how some of you can even start to question, that the Amestrians get their energy from tectonic movements.
It was clearly shown, that father transmutated the earth's crust and therefore stopped the tectonic movements, when he disabled the alchemy in Amestris. So if transmuting the earth cuts of the energy, it's the only and most obvious conclusion, that the energy does come from the ground.

What quigonkenny said. But I think Envy is the one that made us question it in the first place. See chapter 54, page 26.