Facepalm: Love in 2-D

[Claies]

Originally Posted by solomon

I'm sure not ALL Japanese women are so er picky. Sides, call me a lazy american but the workaholic salaryman life style is NOT enviable, let alone manly.

The East and the West have, obviously, drastically different definitions of manliness. It's almost the manifestation of what their cultures are caricatured for.

The Eastern "man" is one who could get a steady, well-paying job, marry a good wife, and perfectly sustain the settled family (and for more points, his parents) and educate his children well so they can do the exact same thing. He will ignore and contain his problems and forge on.

The Western "man" is the guy who displays acute adaptability as an individual to make it through any situation, and can come up with a solution for any problem. He hits his problems head on and tries to solve them, sometimes recklessly.

As much as you don't envy the Eastern "manly" salarymen, they are every bit as uncomfortable with Westerners living large. It'd be great if the two sides can come to a nice middle ground sometime.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Lio

I see Japan's social issues are still fine and dandy!

But really, things like that are the result of the greedy consumer culture, poor social education, and loss of basic human wisdom. Ever since the advent of hardcore consumerism and materialism, people have lost touch with their nature.

It's not just just Japan though.
While America produces really dumb children, Japan produces...

Don't miss the woods for the tree. Despite all their problems, you're still looking at the world's two largest economies. The fact that Japan retains that title despite two decades' worth of slowdown should hint at something.

There is nothing wrong with consumerism. It's when consumerism is financed by debt that we have the problem.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

read the article, hmm that guy is a bit extreme..but I am not bothered by it too much

I mean, in real world, there are ppl who choose to be single because they think they find the meaning of their lives..for example, monks from chinese won't get married because they think it's much more meaningful to become a buddha so they won't be trapped in the eternal cycle

That guy from the article gives some goosebumps to ppl because he carries the pillow around XD...but let's say, if he keeps those things at home, he also participates well in social life, however he just won't marry because he thinks that particular anime character is all he needs, then what can we blame him for?

There are many reasons that ppl choose to be single, falling for 2-D sounds weird, but it's legit...

But the guy in the article does want to get marry, however, it seems that his lacks social skill to get a girl. So it isn't really legit and it is a problem.

[yezhanquan]

First lesson: chuck that pillow at home. Next, seek medical help, since you have diabetes.

[Cut-Tongue]

Yeah getting rid of the pillow and the otaku stuff would probably be the first step for these guys.

[Jaden]

I'd rather give up on love altogether than go this far. It's okay to adore moe but it's not something you should redirect your procreation drive to.

[Kaze]

Doesn't really come as a shock to me,

I've heard about it before, but then much much worse.
With actual life sized dolls and not just a pillow.

There is actually nothing we can do to stop these guys, so it's best to just let them live in peace, as they aren't harming anyone.

[-KarumA-]

Originally Posted by Kaze

Doesn't really come as a shock to me,

I've heard about it before, but then much much worse.
With actual life sized dolls and not just a pillow.

There is actually nothing we can do to stop these guys, so it's best to just let them live in peace, as they aren't harming anyone.

was thinking the same thing, Japan may have pillows but America and Europe have the surreal dolls, in the end I still think both are weird though
I've heard of this before though and most of the times a person got into it after breaking up with a loved one, I find it silly though that non of them think rejection can be a completely normal thing that'll not only happen with love. I guess it is more of an escapism in which not only do they have to keep recon with what a GF in this case pillow or doll is saying, so they can walk around with her being partly nude because no one would object to that, sometimes people are way too much influenced by what they see on TV etc. while in the real world a girl would def say no to wearing panties in public, partly nude or a tight, way too short skirt, this disappointment that a girl would say no to doing these kind of things could also be why they stay in this situation because the media makes it look alright

however their argument that people have to be perfect can be looked at from both sides, one that it is actually true but second that they are looking for love/have been looking for love in the wrong places because there are also women out there who aren't looking for a mr. perfect or who think mr. perfect is different from what the media proclaims it is. Also looking at the photo this guy could use some serious help in style etc. not only does he look much older than he is, he prob doesn't understand what women find very important in a mr. right, he should take better care of himself

having a pillow is however better than collecting cats or dogs D:

[yezhanquan]

You mean ball-joint dolls? I always thought that they are totally cool, because the owner has to put in a darn lot of hard work to make them look good.

[-KarumA-]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

You mean ball-joint dolls? I always thought that they are totally cool, because the owner has to put in a darn lot of hard work to make them look good.

yes I mean those, they are a lot of work and I respect that however in the end its a same situation as these pillows, I remember seeing a docu several times on TV about people who own these dolls, they carry them around, dress them up. same kind of situation just another kind of item

[yezhanquan]

Well, if you don't dress them up, then it would be a real pity, unless you like looking at them all white and bald. Now, that would scare me.

It's a bit like Gundam models. You master "building" them, so you have a common topic to talk with like-minded friends.

[Kylaran]

It's not easy to revert to a normal lifestyle once your social life has deteriorated to such an extent. Rejection is normal, but there are people who receive so little positive input in their lives that they develop a penchant for giving up, be it in having a diverse group of friends, a successful career, or an active love life.

As the guy in the article said, these guys are on the extreme edge of otaku-ness; there must be something beyond simply otaku culture that turns people to this sort of behavior. To say that this is simply a general trend in Japanese society is to make the mistake of assuming the parts are the same as the whole - if people are turning to 2-D for love, then we should understand the reasons for them doing so (such as the incompatibility of individuality and cultural expectations in Japan), and not simply telling them that it's "weird," "wrong," or "they need help."

[0utf0xZer0]

I personally don't find it weird to not be interested in 3D girls. After all, I know guys who have dated and feel no need to try again, even though the experience wasn't horrible - for them, it just wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Which isn't to say that I necessarily find this is the best approach for everyone - I actually would like to experience having a girlfriend at some point - but from what I've seen it can be great for certain people.

And I don't find body pillows all that weird either. Granted, I doubt they make for better fapping sessions that good old catgirl porn does, but there's a certain "ubernerd" appeal to it.

The only thing I don't get about this guy is why he takes his body pillow around in public. I guess there's a certain appeal to even one sided role play that requires a lot of use of the imagination, but even before you consider how little shame you need to actually go do something like this, it seems like a lot of work for very little payoff. I don't want to condemn the guy, I just don't understand his mindset.

(I'm also curious as to whether you could interest one of these guys in a real girl again. I mean, sure, the average girl isn't going to cut it, but what if you introduced them to a girl who cosplays as their favourite character and knows her stuff? I know I find that hard to resist at cons...)

[SaintessHeart]

I would pretty much understand how the guy feel because I might be one of such (I am already building a harem of "2D girls", care to help?).

Firstly, socially different would be the term best to describe such because of the way such people think. Perception is like viewing a circle, depending on how one sees it, it has infinite, one or no sides. If that circle is a metaphor for females, he either sees women as :

1. Zero sided - a total mystery
2. One sided - They only want the guy of their choice (ideal? maybe in a material sense or another).
3. Infinite - They are totally random.

Whichever way he views it, it would be a hassle to further waste brainpower to understand a 3D female. 2D, on the other hand, is rather straightforward in terms of character as it is defined by the storyline the girl is in, thus it would be "easier for them to get along with".

Secondly, he is probably very lonely. Might stem from "odd behaviour" or "socially unacceptable behaviour" such as "otaku obsessions", open fetishism, etc that detracts others from him. Seeking companionship he would look towards the fantasy world for one.

Thirdly, he might just be very tired of the women around him. The general complaints are probably still about perfectionism and materialism. Unlike before Rosie the Riveter, women have more education and quite possibly higher earning power than men, they would want the men to be better than them, totally submissive or offer them something they don't have. As a result of being dwarfed by the female's capability, they withdrew to realm which they could be at peace with.

Such cases often come along with competitive societies. Both sides didn't make their expectations known in the open and thus widens the rift and lack of understanding between the two sexes. I wouldn't blame it on educating women like the Taliban did, but I would blame it on the lack of effort and selfishness of some of each gender to attempt to understand each other and tolerance to another's habits. Gays, lesbians, socially withdrawn and schizophrenics don't just appear overnight, they are trauma victims of selfishness itself.

From what I can see from the members of society are pretty much beyond hope, so I would encourage the man to keep on doing what he is doing. After all, it is less tedious both financially and emotionally if you are earning to feed yourself and your parents only.

Oh yes, for those of you who watch K-ON!, hands off Azunyan. She is mine.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by stubby42

I'm supprised anyone would say that its not a big deal because their suffering from a pretty big personality disorder (or several), I mean apart from chosing objects over people both the people they interviewed said their chosen characters were between 10 and 12 years old. Thats very wrong (and under US law now illegal).

It's not illegal. First it wasn't illegal, then G.W. made it illegal, then the Supreme Court made it un-illegal again.

Now nobody has a fucking clue what it is, as you so ably demonstrate. ^^;

[Ichihara Asako]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

After all, I know guys who have dated and feel no need to try again, even though the experience wasn't horrible - for them, it just wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

This is why I have no issue with people who take 2D love to the extent people like this chap do. When you've been hurt in the past, it's natural to shy away from being hurt again (Unless you're Bart Simpson; damn sneaky cupcakes). I haven't been in a relationship for a decade now, and have no intention of ever bothering with "3D" (to stay on topic) relations again. I've been there, done that, have the ratty old t-shirt. Not interested in it any more.

Now, I'm sure I could find plenty of people who I'd get along with just fine (especially in the otaku community) but I was verily disenchanted with the whole dating game, and the serious relationships that came after. It's not something I care to do again, because the cons far outweigh any of the benefits. But then, I'm happy being on my own, I don't need attention and affection and all that stuff. Especially at the costs relationships inevitably involve.

I haven't resorted to "2D" love, as I think love and sex is highly overrated as a whole, however I can fully understand and appreciate, and in some cases even respect those who commit to it such as the lad in the NYT article. It takes a lot of bravery to be able to go public with it all.

[solomon]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I would pretty much understand how the guy feel because I might be one of such (I am already building a harem of "2D girls", care to help?).

Firstly, socially different would be the term best to describe such because of the way such people think. Perception is like viewing a circle, depending on how one sees it, it has infinite, one or no sides. If that circle is a metaphor for females, he either sees women as :

1. Zero sided - a total mystery
2. One sided - They only want the guy of their choice (ideal? maybe in a material sense or another).
3. Infinite - They are totally random.

Whichever way he views it, it would be a hassle to further waste brainpower to understand a 3D female. 2D, on the other hand, is rather straightforward in terms of character as it is defined by the storyline the girl is in, thus it would be "easier for them to get along with".

Secondly, he is probably very lonely. Might stem from "odd behaviour" or "socially unacceptable behaviour" such as "otaku obsessions", open fetishism, etc that detracts others from him. Seeking companionship he would look towards the fantasy world for one.

Thirdly, he might just be very tired of the women around him. The general complaints are probably still about perfectionism and materialism. Unlike before Rosie the Riveter, women have more education and quite possibly higher earning power than men, they would want the men to be better than them, totally submissive or offer them something they don't have. As a result of being dwarfed by the female's capability, they withdrew to realm which they could be at peace with.

Such cases often come along with competitive societies. Both sides didn't make their expectations known in the open and thus widens the rift and lack of understanding between the two sexes. I wouldn't blame it on educating women like the Taliban did, but I would blame it on the lack of effort and selfishness of some of each gender to attempt to understand each other and tolerance to another's habits. Gays, lesbians, socially withdrawn and schizophrenics don't just appear overnight, they are trauma victims of selfishness itself.

From what I can see from the members of society are pretty much beyond hope, so I would encourage the man to keep on doing what he is doing. After all, it is less tedious both financially and emotionally if you are earning to feed yourself and your parents only.

Oh yes, for those of you who watch K-ON!, hands off Azunyan. She is mine.

Um overlooking your wierd equation of Homosexuals being the same as shutins......

I'd point out that the Rosie the Riveter deal seems more applicable to the West overall, in Japan it doesn't seem like females have "arrived" QUITE like their western counterparts yet. This probably feeds into how some females feel that males must fufill their cultural standard of perfection but don't quote me.


Anyway, I am with the general concensus in saying "Ok, that's a little wierd/freaky but at least he isn't another Tsutomu Miyazaki, so it's cool.

[Lio]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

There is nothing wrong with consumerism. It's when consumerism is financed by debt that we have the problem.

I mainly meant the psychology behind consumerism. People are told by society to believe that we need "stuff" to make us happy... which simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Kylaran

there must be something beyond simply otaku culture that turns people to this sort of behavior. To say that this is simply a general trend in Japanese society is to make the mistake of assuming the parts are the same as the whole - if people are turning to 2-D for love, then we should understand the reasons for them doing so (such as the incompatibility of individuality and cultural expectations in Japan), and not simply telling them that it's "weird," "wrong," or "they need help."

It's not just Japan's otaku culture. If you look at America, the divorce rate is well over 50%. Because of what the shape of today's society people have lost touch with how to live. And nobody's there to show them the way out, that's all. As I like to say: We gained technology, but lost a whole lot of wisdom.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The only thing I don't get about this guy is why he takes his body pillow around in public. I guess there's a certain appeal to even one sided role play that requires a lot of use of the imagination, but even before you consider how little shame you need to actually go do something like this, it seems like a lot of work for very little payoff. I don't want to condemn the guy, I just don't understand his mindset.

(I'm also curious as to whether you could interest one of these guys in a real girl again. I mean, sure, the average girl isn't going to cut it, but what if you introduced them to a girl who cosplays as their favourite character and knows her stuff? I know I find that hard to resist at cons...)

I don't think he gives a shit about anything anymore. XD Not caring what other people think... well, at least that's kind of admirable.

Though a hot lap dance might spark his interest in real girls again. Maybe.

[Sinestra]

meh hes not out gunning down random citizens and hes not hurting anyone let em be.

[Theowne]

Though a hot lap dance might spark his interest in real girls again.

I don't think it's a lack of attraction to real women that causes these men to abandon their pursuit of "3-d love".