2009-07-30, 21:08 | Link #44 | |||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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The correct way of doing something is not necessarily the right way, it is those who dictate the correctness that determine its acceptance as right or wrong. Now, I'm not saying he's free to ignore this behavior as as potentially problematic, but that it's dangerous to say living (properly) is defined a certain way. We don't have the same limitations on social activity that we did a hundred years ago in developed nations - an individual doesn't need children to manage the farm and take care of them when they're much older (to a certain extent, of course) in order to survive. People can now "see" the world through their computers and live off fast food without needing to develop previously critical skills to success. Now, there certainly are things being lost here, such as previously and, for some, currently valued skills and abilities that can also be highly prized. But just because these skills were previously valued does not mean they were necessarily the right way to live. Quote:
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This phenomenon is so small it likely has very little to do with the shrinking population. In other countries, such as Italy, the population is growing older largely because of education for women, more opportunities for careers, and less desire to settle down and start a family early. Japan is the same. Even China is seeing a reduction in birth rates among women in the bigger cities, and it's still a developing country, although the population growth there is still large. |
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2009-07-30, 21:12 | Link #45 |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be~
My view. Though that guy has a strange kind of courage to do what he does. In the same manner as other developed countries which are seeing their demographics shrinking if one discounts immigration...? Pressures of modern life, changing social mechanics, new personal aspirations, new economic systems that render children as financial burdens rather than assets, all bring about a great decline in birthrate. Even the USA shares that trend though it is masked and compensated by vibrant immigration. Japan is virtually unique in all the developing countries for its vehement anti-immigration policy that exacerbates the problem; its xenophobia is not unique though, consider how Turks are viewed in Germany or the resurgence of racists like BNP in Britain. |
2009-07-30, 21:21 | Link #46 |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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Well this sort of thing has little, if no effect on the shrinking population of Japan.
Japan is facing problems that other developing nations are facing. All developing countries have lowering fertility rates, and its a problem of varying degrees. The liberation of women, higher ages of marriage, the cost of raising and educating children, can all be linked to the problem, but its certainly not due to the small minority of people who are like the man in this story. If anything the biggest problem for Japan is that it refuses immigration. Immigration is the lifeblood of countries like America, Canada, Australia and Europe, as It provides young people (with babies) and workers that both produce goods and consume them. This in turn helps the economy and culture stay alive in these countries. Japan needs new ideas, cultures, languages, and such to enliven the country.
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2009-07-30, 21:33 | Link #47 |
Birth by Moonlight
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This is the first time I've heard someone have done such a thing. It's unbelievable, but nevertheless, I don't like the feedback that he gets from society. Just leave him alone or accept him on some scale. However(as harsh as it's true) we all accept the fact that we feel glad to not be this guy. I like Relentless's post; kudos and well said.
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2009-07-30, 22:03 | Link #48 | |
Presence
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Even though technology changed the details of our lives we're still pretty much the same inside. So when things conflict with or deny our human nature and disrupt our natural inner harmony (as it is with the majority of people), you get people who are stressed out, generally dissatisfied with life, or people who are just plain fucked up. |
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2009-07-30, 22:08 | Link #49 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
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For me I'd say "let it be" for these guys... for as long as they are outside my circle.
My circle = friends, best friends, family If I ever find out the people within my circle become shut-in pedophiles like those people described on NY Times I will go INTERVENTION on them. If they refuse professional help I will disassociate with them and keep 'em away from my inner circle (my siblings, cousins, family). |
2009-07-30, 22:34 | Link #51 | |
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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Quote:
Stress, dissatisfaction, or the state of being "fucked up" is already questionable in description if the behavior is presumed to be irregular based on previously established norms (that are themselves of curious origin). If stress is natural, then why is it generated because of a conflict with human nature? And what's wrong with dissatisfaction with life if the current system of living life has its flaws? If it's possible to feel both anxiety for both living and not living life in accordance with society's rules, then doesn't that say something about how an individual's true nature is not defined by either? Rather than being an affirmation of what is understood as integral to the human experience, it becomes an issue worth looking deeper into. Finding that the actions of the man in the article as unacceptable could very well be a product of societal expectations - and not necessarily human nature - which in turn means some (such as myself) come to personally object the idea that these individuals are complete wackos that may need help. As others have said before me, an acceptance of irregular (harmless) behavior is the best way to go, in my consenting opinion. Mostly for the reason that it may further shed light on our understanding of the relationship of the individual with society, it is better to not hastily brand such actions as problematic. My apologies for the disagreement, by the way. I don't mean to act hostile in any way shape or form. |
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2009-07-31, 00:05 | Link #52 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
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Not going to drag this one, for I don't really care. However, using China as an example is rather absurd is it not? They do after all, have a birth control rate and limit of child birth per house hold. Or maybe that was awhile ago and they completely changed and I didn't get updated. I don't pay too much attention to China, I can care less about them.
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2009-07-31, 01:48 | Link #53 | |
Presence
Join Date: Jun 2009
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There's nothing problematic about people with irregular harmless behavior, and of course accepting their harmless behavior is the sensible thing to do. I'm saying that what you might call "irregular behavior" is really the result of being lost in technology (both physical and societal) and losing touch with basic human nature, your natural state of being. If he's disenchanted by reality but not oblivious of it, if he'd like to get married but lives the life he does... it's obvious to me but, something's out of harmony wouldn't you say? Of course, there's nothing wrong with that. |
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2009-07-31, 02:00 | Link #54 |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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And just what is this universal natural state of being?
The closest thing I could think of is that we should all be nudists, after all that is the most natural state. Yet it is "abnormal," how dare civilization declares its dominion over nature! I do not deny that there are certain characteristics that the vast majority our awesome species seem to be predisposed to, that our biological functions work similarly, that these can be manifested in the civilizations that we create, etc., etc. But you see, Kylaran's point is that the sages of the past do not know everything: they, just like us, are the product of an era, of their immediate environments, and their insight to this human nature thing is as limited as we are. Mr. Otaku and his love for a fluffy fantasy might as well be another expression of a "hidden" side of the Nature of Man (and Pillow), previously inaccessible to the ancient sages because Confucius didn't have an anime pillow to ponder upon. After all, the very concept of individual psychology itself is quite new comparatively speaking. So declaring that he is firmly "abnormal" by the standards of human nature is difficult to validate at best. That he is abnormal by societal standards is rather obvious, though. |
2009-07-31, 02:41 | Link #55 | ||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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This presupposes that freedom is a requirement for happiness and satisfaction, both of which are biological states that can be trained to respond to pre-established cultural expectations, but something which is a bit beyond the scope of this thread and more than I think both you and I should talk about here at this moment.
I can see where you're coming from, but I do have some other personal points to make. If you're ever interested in discussing, I'd be glad to talk it out somewhere else. Quote:
Of course, this further goes into definitional issues that underlies thought experiment after thought experiment regarding the basic nature of humankind, but my point here is... Quote:
It's most likely the former than the latter, since materialism isn't necessarily a biological function inherent in mankind, but, hey, it's always good to think about it. |
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2009-07-31, 03:00 | Link #56 | |
Presence
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Your natural state of being is free, is happy, is satisfied. This isn't something that you think about intellectually. It's what you understand when you let go of everything, and just relax into it. This is what the sages (eg Jesus and Buddha, not Confucius) knew that most don't. People are so trapped in their own minds about what they believe, think and whatnot that nobody takes the time to let it all go, let everything go, and just feel what remains. That, is your natural state of being. The more out of touch people are with that, the more "irregular" or "abnormal" they will become because of the thoughts brainwashed into them by society. Though it's really less "abnormal" but more "dysfunctional", which is how I see pillow otakus who dream of marriage and societies with high divorce rates anyway. Societies that threw away wisdom and loses itself in technology, thus becoming dysfunctional, creates "dysfunctional" people like that otaku. It's perfectly fine though. |
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2009-07-31, 03:42 | Link #57 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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That's merely your point of view. Plenty of other people would otherwise agree with Thomas Hobbes: "The life of man (is) solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
His fuller quote from the Leviathan. Quote:
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2009-07-31, 04:18 | Link #58 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Ugh.. the presentation is somewhat scandalous and I get the impression that the author does not really understand the sub-culture, with some oversimplifications such as
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2009-07-31, 07:00 | Link #60 | ||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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So abstract concepts like "need for company" can mean a hunter and his trusty dog in one society and an otaku and his beloved pillow girl in another. Quote:
That's not an easy question to answer. You argue that Jesus and Buddha represent the achievements of these ideals [note: ideals], yet to me, using the lens of a historian, the figure of Jesus is a martyred Jewish leader who speaks of apocalypses, paradises, and redemption -- something that occurs repeatedly throughout history whenever a people is reduced to desperation, actually; the Yellow Turbans of Han China, countless peasant leaders in the hellhole that was Medieval Europe, even the Boxer Rebellion as late as the 19th century, and of course Islamic extremism. That his message was one far milder than fellow martyrs, that his followers reshaped it to suit the circumstances as they needed, and that luck and charisma and, for the believers, God's will, helped propel the movement into a religion of world prominence does not mean that his was a free, happy, satisfied existence, nor that the mildness of his message necessarily implied what you meant to imply. On the contrary, the message of pre-modern Christianity, at least one that eventually became prominent, was almost a darkly desperate one: live in meekness and goodness in this life, but expect your payoff in heaven. Not in a happy, satisfied life in this world -- in heaven. Buddha, meanwhile, was one sage who spoke in the Hindu religious tradition. Yes, it was distinct, yet the worldview of the original Buddhism was closely related to Brahmic traditions at the time. At odds, perhaps, deliberately -- one of early Buddhism's appeals was its rejection of the caste system -- yet interrelated. Buddhism did not argue for a happy, natural, carefree life. Its philosophical position was that one should abandon all emotions, all ties -- negative and positive -- not to achieve a content natural state but to achieve a higher, different, unnatural level of liberation: the elusive "Nirvana," to Mahayana Buddhists a heaven of some kind, to Theravada Buddhists freedom from existence, freedom, that is, from the natural cycle. Oh, and just to mention, meditation isn't nearly as easy as it looks. If anything it is a very deliberate, unnatural process, something that require effort and learning to master. Buddha and Jesus might be beloved figures, they might have argued against certain excesses of human behavior, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone from admiring them, but I don't think they say what you think they say. |
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