[Manga] Naruto Chapter 625 Discussion Thread

[justavisitor]

I don't think anyone is wrong on this chapter

Hashirama obviously knows Madara very well and I think Madara would have become a great protector of the village if he did become the 1st Hokage

Tobirama is just being realistic. He doesn't know Madara as well as Hashirama does and he is just a much more realistic individual...Sometimes, you need to be a little bit naive (at least that's what this manga suggests) to be able to think outside the box and create a new path. Both Hashirama and naruto possess this quality but Tobirama is a normal ninja compared to them. He can't think like his brother and it's natural that he acts what he thinks is the best for the village and his clan.

Madara has great pride in his clan and his leadership...After all, he is a leader and he likes to be in charge. At the same time he is often pessimistic and also a very sensitive person. He would rather back off and do things his own ways when he meets obstacles. (As we can see he backed off once already when he found out Hashirama's real identity) Hashirama knows Madara too well and that's why he wants Madara to be the first Hokage. Too bad it doesn't work well.

So basically, no one is wrong. The only thing that is "wrong" is the insistence from Hashirama to grant equal status to the Uchina clan when he wanted Madara and his clan to join the pack. Madara enjoys equal status but everyone knows that Uchina was on the verge of defeat. As a result, the situation becomes really awkward (Tobirama doesn't think the Uchina deserves the equal status, which represents the thought of the majority), and the sensitive Madara chooses to back out once again

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Did Madara even try? Madara has never given an inch in his life. Even when defeated he still tried to force Hashirama to bend to his will (and it was only Hashirama's willingness to create peace through self-subjugation that allowed Madara to even consider a truce). Afterwards, he never actually attempted to fit in or work with the peace Hashirama was attempting to create. Seemingly, Madara's greatest problem was pride, which forced him to never even attempt for peace based on compromise or equality.

I think you are deeply misinterpreting Madara's demand and Hashirama's answer. What Madara said is essentially the same thing Sasuke told Kakashi and Tobi when they talked about revenge and what Nagato adressed about shared pain.
Sasuke's argument when told that he should give up on revenge for the murder of his family was that he'd like those who say that to repeat it to his face once he had murdered their families and Nagato thought peace could only be achieved once everybody in the world suffered from the same pain (in his mind near complete annihilation for everybody).
What Madara rhetorically asked of Hashirama (he obviously didn't expect Hashirama would take him at his words) was basically the same, he had lost his entire family and the person he loved most at the hands of the Senju and simply couldn't trust nor work with them because of that so he told Hashirama and/or Tobirama to suffer the same fate as he had.
Hashirama's answer had nothing to do with self-subjugation, it was about absolute commitment and empathy and that's why Madara stopped him. Had Madara been all about subjugation it'd have been his victory right there but it's not at all what it's about.

Madara essentially shares the same dream than Hashirama without his idealism and without Tobirama cold acceptance of "reality" and so his answer couldn't be to make his enemies his friends nor to use and orchestrate their future demise if need be but to change reality itself. If God had separated reality in Yin and Yang so that both sides should work together, which from his point of view was impossible, in order to achieve harmony then he would combine them again within a single man now godlike to singlehandedly create peace.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

You can certainly relate Tobirama to Danzo. They both want what's best for the village and ironically they both had to besiege the Uchiha. There's no chance Tobirama didn't know that Madara was outside the window while he was talking to Hashirama.

In what way did Danzo want what's best for the village? Danzo wanted what was best for himself. Multiple times we've seen him back down when he had a chance to put others before himself. The worst was hiding whiles the village was being destroyed by Pain.

Tobirama on the other hand supposedly died to protect the will of fire (the future generation). I say supposedly because that's the latest point in history we saw him alive and it was considered a suicide mission to draw the enemy away...

The interpretation I got from the scene of Tobirama telling Harashima that the hokage should be decided by democracy was that Harashima himself wouldn't have known it was Madara listening in if he didn't see that burnt/disfigured leaf outside his window. So how can you say Tobirama knew it was Madara listening or that someone was listening at all?

He clearly said he wasn't molding chakra and if its one thing we've seen from Tobirama is that he's a pretty up front guy about how he feels. He never once hid his feeling about Madara from anyone. Nor did he try to hide his dilike of the Uchiha.

Tobirama is a logical guy and I would say if Madara stood his ground and proved Tobirama wrong, Tobirama himself would have admitted he was wrong about the Uchihas. Madara may have very well become the Second Hokage if he stayed.

[astayanax]

The interpretation I got from the scene of Tobirama telling Harashima that the hokage should be decided by democracy was that Harashima himself wouldn't have known it was Madara listening in if he didn't see that burnt/disfigured leaf outside his window. So how can you say Tobirama knew it was Madara listening or that someone was listening at all?

Tobirama is one of the most powerful sensor ninja in the Narutoverse. Besides, he had pinpointed Madara's location half way across the continent and was on the verge of charging after him before being stopped by Orochimaru. Trust me, he knew who it was outside that window.

[Alchemist007]

So Tobirama's a dick and Madara's still bitter. Well I can't blame Madara that much since Tobirama did kill his brother, and doesn't seem the least bit resentful about it. I guess he'd rather kill Tobirama but Hashirama would probably volunteer in his place anyways.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

...empathy...

I don't know. Hashirama has been empathetic to Madara in the past, even going so far as to call for a peace/truce multiple times over the years. The scene felt to me like two kings standing before each other and one deciding to kneel for the betterment of all and one refusing to kneel even though he was already on his knees. As the manga has said before, between two opposing forces, someone always has to give way, and since Madara refused even in defeat (for various reasons) Hashirama had to (for various reasons, probably even empathy though I do not think that is the primary cause)

Undoubtedly empathy is the answer to all things in Naruto (it saved a village (Nagato), next it will save the world (Obito or Sasuke)), but the scene in question didn't really feel like one character being empathetic to another so much as one character understanding* and accepting the larger picture and another understanding but refusing to accept the larger picture (I'll let you decide which is which).

Originally Posted by Hunter

general commitment...

Completely agree. Hashirama's actions helped convince Madara that he was fully committed to peace between the clans and potentially peace throughout the world.


*Yes 'understanding' is a part of empathy, but I am not using it to convey singular understanding of another, but rather a larger understanding of the world and all its people.

[Hunter]

While I'm not entirely satisfied with the word empathy I don't really see a better one in this case, I don't think you can separate "understanding of the world and all its people" with personal understanding in this story where everything is about bound and bromance and even if you could I don't think you should in this case.
The sharing of views and bounds between former (fr)enemy in order to turn them into new brothers is paramount to Hashirama's philosophy, he's not the type who think of the greater good as some intellectually remote ideal, he's obviously completely emotionally invested in this. It's the same reason he wanted Madara as First Hokage : he was as ready to put himself into his ennemy's shoes to the point of self sacrifice as to put Madara into his own in order to bound him to all of Konoha.

[james0246]

^I would have used sympathy. Hashirama very much sympathizes with Madara, in large part because Kishimoto wants us to sympathize with Madara (this of course lends to my description of Madara as a tragic figure partially brought down by his pride).

I still don't know if it is empathy, but I'm willing to acquiesce.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Hunter

If God had separated reality in Yin and Yang so that both sides should work together, which from his point of view was impossible, in order to achieve harmony then he would combine them again within a single man now godlike to singlehandedly create peace.

This...i tried to say this on page one and it did noooooottttt come out like this lol...me like.

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

So Tobirama's a dick and Madara's still bitter. Well I can't blame Madara that much since Tobirama did kill his brother, and doesn't seem the least bit resentful about it. I guess he'd rather kill Tobirama but Hashirama would probably volunteer in his place anyways.

tobirama comes off a bit jealous of madara and hashiramas relationship to me…hating cuz big bro spends too much time caring about that guy…


tobirama probably still has the sword with izunas blood…maybe that'll be his first edo tensei

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by james0246

So why didn't he even attempt to change this outlook? Nothing Madara did was in any way conductive to trying to compromise or create equality. (Nothing Tobirama did helped either.)

I would say he figured it to be pointless.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

In what way did Danzo want what's best for the village? Danzo wanted what was best for himself. Multiple times we've seen him back down when he had a chance to put others before himself. The worst was hiding whiles the village was being destroyed by Pain.

Tobirama on the other hand supposedly died to protect the will of fire (the future generation). I say supposedly because that's the latest point in history we saw him alive and it was considered a suicide mission to draw the enemy away...

The interpretation I got from the scene of Tobirama telling Harashima that the hokage should be decided by democracy was that Harashima himself wouldn't have known it was Madara listening in if he didn't see that burnt/disfigured leaf outside his window. So how can you say Tobirama knew it was Madara listening or that someone was listening at all?

He clearly said he wasn't molding chakra and if its one thing we've seen from Tobirama is that he's a pretty up front guy about how he feels. He never once hid his feeling about Madara from anyone. Nor did he try to hide his dilike of the Uchiha.

Tobirama is a logical guy and I would say if Madara stood his ground and proved Tobirama wrong, Tobirama himself would have admitted he was wrong about the Uchihas. Madara may have very well become the Second Hokage if he stayed.

Tobirama has much better senses than his brother, and he's very clever. I'm convinced that he knew Madara was standing outside listening. If Hashirama could sense it, how wouldn't Tobirama. He said he wasn't molding chakra, i guess that would be the first time anybody has told a lie in Konoha. Tobirama clearly despised Madara and wanted him to leave. I find it very hard to believe that some one at the Kage level and that has senses beyond Hashirama couldn't sense somebody standing right outside the window. Tobirama wanted Madara to hear the conversation, you can't deny that.

Danzo was serving the village, yes in a selfish way, but still wanting the best for the village.

[kk2extreme]

Madara is the 1st S-rank missing nin

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Tobirama is a logical guy and I would say if Madara stood his ground and proved Tobirama wrong, Tobirama himself would have admitted he was wrong about the Uchihas. Madara may have very well become the Second Hokage if he stayed.

Of course, Tobirama wasn't wrong about Madara being highly dangerous and unstable. Or about hatred being being the source of the Uchiha's most powerful doujutsu. Maybe the only thing Tobirama misunderstood was Madara's geniune wish to share in Hashirama's dream, which possibly could've redeemed him and reconciled their differences. But Tobirama and Madara's mistrust in each other created in a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of changing their outlook to create a solution, both retreated further into their mistrust.

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

Tobirama has much better senses than his brother, and he's very clever. I'm convinced that he knew Madara was standing outside listening. If Hashirama could sense it, how wouldn't Tobirama. He said he wasn't molding chakra, i guess that would be the first time anybody has told a lie in Konoha. Tobirama clearly despised Madara and wanted him to leave. I find it very hard to believe that some one at the Kage level and that has senses beyond Hashirama couldn't sense somebody standing right outside the window. Tobirama wanted Madara to hear the conversation, you can't deny that.

That kind of deceit doesn't seem like Tobirama's style. He seems to pretty honorable despite being cold and calculating. Though it would be pretty interesting if he felt the need to create a divide between Hashirama and Madara for the good of the village.

[iBeast]

Tobirama... a cursed clan... it just wasn't meant to be.

Still... to have Itachi kill an entire clan? Blood needs to be shed.

[Lunarskylar]

Also, considering Tobirama's bluntness, I'm pretty sure it's the type of thing he'd easily say to Madara's face. I can see Madara hiding his presence and (at that moment since tobirama probably was stronger int he past with sensing) Only hashirama could sense madara (due to either skill or the shared connection they have as bromance lovers)

[bonsobon]

Wonder what Sasuke's going to do now that he's heard both takes on what happened during that time period. Is he going to believe one account over the other? Reject both because of their bias? Or will he compare both accounts and see if he gets his truth that way?

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by bonsobon

Wonder what Sasuke's going to do now that he's heard both takes on what happened during that time period. Is he going to believe one account over the other? Reject both because of their bias? Or will he compare both accounts and see if he gets his truth that way?

Well, I would believe Hashirama's version over Obito's, since Obito is giving a second-hand account of the story. Do the two versions contradict each other though?

I think we're missing some key part of the story. I thought we were going to find out why Orochimaru wanted to destroy the Leaf.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

Tobirama has much better senses than his brother, and he's very clever. I'm convinced that he knew Madara was standing outside listening. If Hashirama could sense it, how wouldn't Tobirama. He said he wasn't molding chakra, i guess that would be the first time anybody has told a lie in Konoha. Tobirama clearly despised Madara and wanted him to leave. I find it very hard to believe that some one at the Kage level and that has senses beyond Hashirama couldn't sense somebody standing right outside the window. Tobirama wanted Madara to hear the conversation, you can't deny that.

There was no reason to lie though. Everything Tobirama said (based on his personality) he would have said to Madara's face. He may be blunt and cold but he's not decietful.

Danzo was serving the village, yes in a selfish way, but still wanting the best for the village.

I'm not sure how letting the village be destroyed so he could lead translates to wanting what's best for the village.

[xellos2099]

I will have to agree with Orochimaru's view that Tobirama cause a lot of the future fighting. Even if indirectly, Tobirama's mistrust and the formation of the police indirectly caused the rebellion.

[JustRob]

It seems to me like Tobirama is the cause of the Uchiha clan's tragedy, and all the hatred surrounding the Uchiha clan.

Hashirama and Madara founded the village, why should they not have the right to appoint a Hokage themselves? By letting the people decide on Hashirama, Madara and the Uchiha would always be treated as outcasts.

In my opinion Tobirama is largely to blame for all of Madara's actions. If he wasn't dead already, he should have been the next guy for Sasuke to kill.