AnimeSuki Forums

Demi · 2009-07-28, 07:03

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/ma...-2DLove-t.html

Mystique · 2009-07-28, 07:08

I say, leave him. If he's happy and doesn't harm anyone, then who are we to judge. (Especially girls)
There's already a thread on 2D love (or thr funny news thread) so chances are, that this is gonna get merged or deleted.

Chaho-Chi · 2009-07-28, 07:14

This happens in Japan a lot, Not that big.

Demi · 2009-07-28, 07:15

This is the first time I've heard about it... and on nytimes of all places... quite a culture shock for me.

stubby42 · 2009-07-28, 08:13

I'm supprised anyone would say that its not a big deal because their suffering from a pretty big personality disorder (or several), I mean apart from chosing objects over people both the people they interviewed said their chosen characters were between 10 and 12 years old. Thats very wrong (and under US law now illegal).

Mystique · 2009-07-28, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubby42

I'm supprised anyone would say that its not a big deal because their suffering from a pretty big personality disorder (or several), I mean apart from chosing objects over people both the people they interviewed said their chosen characters were between 10 and 12 years old. Thats very wrong (and under US law now illegal).

Ah, then again re-read that article and all articles related to japanese men who own tons of candydolls or similar pillows.
They wre rejected by girls or have ex-gf's in the past, they admit they're not the most handsome or perhaps the 'best catch of the sea', but feel lonely and want companion as much as others and this option just happens to be prevailant in Japanese society.

The question you should ask rather is 'why can people actually profit from a sad situation like this?'
There's a market for it, and I doubt a majority of those men who escape to 2D have personality orders or think of tweens as the gf they want.
Rather, perhaps it's just (in their minds) the only form of 'comfort' in form of a 'human physique' that they feel they can get.
Sounds like true loss of hope to me.

It's just lonliness on a very very very sad and perhaps tragic scale.
Rather he cuddle with a pillow rather than go on a shootout and take as many of the world with him.

iLney · 2009-07-28, 08:35

Like Mystique said, he's harmless so just leave him alone. And .... I see it quite a Romantic story in a sense

izmosmolnar · 2009-07-28, 09:44

Relentless wrote an interesting article about it here.

Spoiler for saving space:

Quote:

I think that probably the first thing that needs to be said is that it’s rather obvious that the author is not extremely well-versed in the subject she’s covering, and the article was clearly written to have a somewhat provocative slant. (Or rather, perhaps it should be said that to the unexposed, this subject is naturally somewhat controversial.) For example, the ages of the anime/game characters are sometimes underestimated to be much younger than they’re portrayed to be, with special emphasis placed on the girls being “prepubescent” even when that’s not the case to look at them. The author’s decision to go into graphic detail about the content of some of the more risqué pillow covers also left me thinking that she didn’t have to state it so provocatively, but that’s also probably what got it published. From an American media perspective, it’s nearly a codeword for starting a witchhunt, and I’d be a bit concerned when some American parent reads this article and then realizes that their kid owns a body pillow cover or a figure and sends them straight to counselling. Especially given the article’s not-so-subtle message that “most people secretly want a way out” (which I’m not necessarily saying is or isn’t true).

That aside, though, I think it’s actually a pretty good article. I was pleased that the author generally used the right terminology in the right places, made it clear that this was a subset of the otaku population, and even that they printed Momo’s very clear declaration about this being a strictly 2D-only affair (though I don’t know if people will catch or even believe that given the way it’s stated).

I’m guessing that one of the first reactions most anime/eroge fans will probably have to that article is something along the lines of “at least I’m not as bad as that guy!”. I mean, I don’t think actually going on dates (or having sex…?) with body pillows is all that common, and the only time most would expect to see someone carying a “costumed” body pillow might be at an anime convention, I suppose. But, upon further reflection, it seems to me that this is a little bit of a shallow reaction that doesn’t really address the issue. What’s the real difference between “Nii-san” and the rest of us “2D Lovers”? At the end of the day, isn’t it mostly that he’s given his 2D passion more of a physical form and isn’t afraid to show it in public? In a weird sort of way, I suppose one could argue that’s a sort of courage.

Imagine for a moment that we were forced to live out our anime love affair in full view of the general public. That we had to carry a body pillow with of the image of the 2D character on our hearts/minds? That everyone everywhere could see everything we buy, read, watch, and play? If people saw that aspect of us, would they think that we’re any less “crazy” than Nii-san? Do we only convince ourselves that we’re not as bad as he is because we’re more afraid to show it and act it out? In the end, I wonder how much of this is really just all about picking between varying shades of grey.

The closing comment of the article talked about acceptance, and that’s a point that really hit home for me. I tend to treat this hobby as a sort of dirty little secret that’s completely separate from my “normal life”. Sort of like, nobody must know because they’ll think it’s abnormal and weird, and people will look at me differently as a result. But the further you fall down this rabbit hole, the harder it is to climb back up, and it gets to the point where you start asking yourself, as Nii-san in the article did, “will anyone ever be able to truly accept me for who I am?” I mean the answer seem ostensibly simple: don’t do things that people consider strange, and people will accept you naturally. That’s the way I live my public life from day to day, and it’s served me rather well all in all. But when it comes to “true love” — having a deep personal relationship with someone you might want to spend your life with — just patching over or hiding the less acceptable parts just doesn’t seem right. It’s like the other person wouldn’t be having a relationship with the real you, but with yet another facade you have to maintain in order to be accepted. That’s just not acceptable — not to them and, to be frank, not to me either.

So I guess that, in a way, one could argue that the 2D Lovers in the article have romantic ideals that the real world can’t hope to satisfy. Although the way they act out on these feelings is socially awkward and potentially disturbing, I have to admit that I resonate to a certain degree with some of the logic of their thinking (though I haven’t really given up on 3D — at least not yet!). I think that one of the things that draws people into deeper into this sort of obsession is their unwillingness to maintain social facades in exchange for what some might see as a “meaningful relationship”. In absense of that, they become withdrawn into their imagination and whatever form that takes. It’s an emotional drug that, to many, is more appealing — and potent — than any narcotic.

.

As a closing thought, an illustration from the anime (and I presume manga) of Welcome to the NHK. Spoiler warning if you haven’t seen it yet — and you really should see it.

I’m generally the sort of person who’s pretty hard to annoy when it comes to anime storytelling. I thought all the Da Capo anime were pretty well-done. I take Endless Eight in stride. Name any show I’ve watched, and I’m sure I can say at least one good thing about it. But there’s one part of this show that just made me so mad that I could barely contain it.

In the second half of the anime, one of the main characters, a pretty hardcore otaku, finds out that he’s going to have to leave town and go back home to take over his family business. As such, he has to abandon the life he’s currently living, including his relationship with his girlfriend (since he doesn’t feel that he’s an in a position to ask her to abandon her life to come with him). In an effort designed, in his mind, to make the breakup that much easier, he decides that he’s going to invite her over to his place and finally reveal his big secret: that he’s actually a hardcore otaku. He even decides to secretly tape the event, figuring that her shocked reaction and the subsequent rejection would at least be good for the lulz. But a funny thing happened that day; something he could never have predicted: she actually accepted it.

I can’t speak for everyone, but it seems to me that this is something of a dream situation that most 2D fans have resigned themselves could never actually happen in real life, even though the chance is certainly there. And the consensus would be that if you can find someone that can really accept you, including your 2D-fanatic-side, you’ve probably found the closest you’ll ever get to true love. I couldn’t help by think “wow, that’s so romantic!” because to me this is a sort of holy grail of acceptance. It genuinely pulled at my heartstrings.

But then, Yamazaki did the unthinkable: he proceeded to make her hate him anyway. He made himself to be that much more of a creep. He insulted her. He threatened her. He did everything he could think of to make her run away disgusted, and she did. And then, he never went after her. He never apologized. He never even told her the reason why. He just let her believe that her feelings for him were all a big lie.

For the longest while, all I could think was: what an ass.

The show itself went on to eventually give the character a happy ending. He did move home and eventually settled down with a nice girl and started a family. He claimed that he had a happy, fulfilling life. But to do that, he had to somehow completely divorce himself from his former life and devote himself fully to the new life he chose to live instead. And to this day, I’m not quite sure to what degree the original author is proposing this as “the right answer”. I can’t help but feeling, though, that this is more of a compromise, and a less genuine sort of way of living your life. And if that’s really what it takes, then at least I can say that, for now, I’m not ready to cross that bridge yet.

0utf0xZer0 · 2009-07-28, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubby42

I'm supprised anyone would say that its not a big deal because their suffering from a pretty big personality disorder (or several), I mean apart from chosing objects over people both the people they interviewed said their chosen characters were between 10 and 12 years old. Thats very wrong (and under US law now illegal).

I'm pretty sure Nemu (the first girl mentioned) isn't supposed to be between 10 and 12. And actually, I've always had trouble understanding why some people see such characters as being like 10.

Some of the other character mentioned actually are 10 though.

Ash Falls Town · 2009-07-28, 10:09

What kind of guy goes out with his girlfriend while she is in her underwear is what I want to know.
If he loves her as much as he would a real human he should treat her like a real human and real humans need to conform to public decency laws.

Solais · 2009-07-28, 10:10

The article is good, but I think some of the comments to the article is sadder than the article itself: the lack of "lack of cultural Common Sense" for most people is more sad (and irritating) than this guy's story. He's just a poor guy, lost in the war what is Love, why it's so disturbing what he does? You should comfort him instead, the lack of this what caused this in the first place. I think he's psychologically normal.

Btw, it's really not that big deal, I've heard a million stories like this before.

Autumn Demon · 2009-07-28, 18:26

I thought this thread was going to be about facepalms; very disappointed.

GuidoHunter_Toki · 2009-07-28, 18:36

I can't say I'm not raising an eyebrow at this, but I'm not too bothered by it.

As long as these kinds of people don't harm anyone, I'm fine with this. They do what fits their life. I'd rather they live this way and be happy and harmless than force themselves into a conventional but ill-fitting relationship and end up hurting not only themselves but other people.

Terrestrial Dream · 2009-07-28, 18:45

Shouldn't something be done about this? It seems like this is a social problem for those people and this seem to further diminish Japan's birth rate, which is already low(though probably a stretch at best as this only seem to apply to minorities).

Claies · 2009-07-28, 20:05

Just one problem of many. I tend to summarize Japan's low birth-rate problem down to perfectionism. Generally, they would simply ignore anyone who is not perfect (men who are not manly, see "herbivorous boys").

I would imagine that being dumped over there is a much bigger deal and loss of face than in the West, just like being fired from your job, so the rejects have no choice but to turn to this. It's really very sad.

Important: They'll appear creepy, but they're harmless. If you don't like them, don't look at them, that's it.

klowny · 2009-07-28, 20:14

I never understood why people fall for 2-D

justavisitor · 2009-07-28, 20:44

read the article, hmm that guy is a bit extreme..but I am not bothered by it too much

I mean, in real world, there are ppl who choose to be single because they think they find the meaning of their lives..for example, monks from chinese won't get married because they think it's much more meaningful to become a buddha so they won't be trapped in the eternal cycle

That guy from the article gives some goosebumps to ppl because he carries the pillow around XD...but let's say, if he keeps those things at home, he also participates well in social life, however he just won't marry because he thinks that particular anime character is all he needs, then what can we blame him for?

There are many reasons that ppl choose to be single, falling for 2-D sounds weird, but it's legit...

solomon · 2009-07-28, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claies

Just one problem of many. I tend to summarize Japan's low birth-rate problem down to perfectionism. Generally, they would simply ignore anyone who is not perfect (men who are not manly, see "herbivorous boys").

I would imagine that being dumped over there is a much bigger deal and loss of face than in the West, just like being fired from your job, so the rejects have no choice but to turn to this. It's really very sad.

Important: They'll appear creepy, but they're harmless. If you don't like them, don't look at them, that's it.

I'm sure not ALL Japanese women are so er picky. Sides, call me a lazy american but the workaholic salaryman life style is NOT enviable, let alone manly.

yezhanquan · 2009-07-28, 21:55

Work-life integration is still sorely lacking in Japan. The newer generation know by instinct that workaholic salarymen are a relic of the past. It doesn't work.

Lio · 2009-07-28, 22:52

I see Japan's social issues are still fine and dandy!

But really, things like that are the result of the greedy consumer culture, poor social education, and loss of basic human wisdom. Ever since the advent of hardcore consumerism and materialism, people have lost touch with their nature.

It's not just just Japan though.
While America produces really dumb children, Japan produces...

2009-07-28, 07:03	Link #1
Demi Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Facepalm: Love in 2-D http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/ma...-2DLove-t.html

2009-07-28, 07:08	Link #2
Mystique Honyaku no Hime Fansubber Join Date: May 2008 Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...	I say, leave him. If he's happy and doesn't harm anyone, then who are we to judge. (Especially girls) There's already a thread on 2D love (or thr funny news thread) so chances are, that this is gonna get merged or deleted. __________________ Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder "If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia

2009-07-28, 07:14	Link #3
Chaho-Chi toptoptoptoptoptoptoptopt Graphic Designer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Behind you >:) Age: 27	This happens in Japan a lot, Not that big. __________________

2009-07-28, 10:09	Link #10
Ash Falls Town Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Adelaide Age: 36	What kind of guy goes out with his girlfriend while she is in her underwear is what I want to know. If he loves her as much as he would a real human he should treat her like a real human and real humans need to conform to public decency laws. __________________ MAL Profile

2009-07-28, 18:36	Link #13
GuidoHunter_Toki Wiggle Your Big Toe Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Milwaukee Age: 33	I can't say I'm not raising an eyebrow at this, but I'm not too bothered by it. As long as these kinds of people don't harm anyone, I'm fine with this. They do what fits their life. I'd rather they live this way and be happy and harmless than force themselves into a conventional but ill-fitting relationship and end up hurting not only themselves but other people. __________________ I'm an aspiring voice actor, why not check out some of my stuff

2009-07-28, 07:15	Link #4
Demi Member Join Date: Sep 2008	This is the first time I've heard about it... and on nytimes of all places... quite a culture shock for me.

2009-07-28, 08:13	Link #5
stubby42 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: UK/Canada	I'm supprised anyone would say that its not a big deal because their suffering from a pretty big personality disorder (or several), I mean apart from chosing objects over people both the people they interviewed said their chosen characters were between 10 and 12 years old. Thats very wrong (and under US law now illegal).

2009-07-28, 08:35	Link #7
iLney Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008	Like Mystique said, he's harmless so just leave him alone. And .... I see it quite a Romantic story in a sense

2009-07-28, 10:10	Link #11
Solais Youkai of Coincidence Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The Border of Common Sense Age: 34	The article is good, but I think some of the comments to the article is sadder than the article itself: the lack of "lack of cultural Common Sense" for most people is more sad (and irritating) than this guy's story. He's just a poor guy, lost in the war what is Love, why it's so disturbing what he does? You should comfort him instead, the lack of this what caused this in the first place. I think he's psychologically normal. Btw, it's really not that big deal, I've heard a million stories like this before.

2009-07-28, 18:26	Link #12
Autumn Demon ~ Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Boston Age: 35	I thought this thread was going to be about facepalms; very disappointed.

2009-07-28, 18:45	Link #14
Terrestrial Dream 勇者 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tesla Leicht Institute Age: 34	Shouldn't something be done about this? It seems like this is a social problem for those people and this seem to further diminish Japan's birth rate, which is already low(though probably a stretch at best as this only seem to apply to minorities). __________________

2009-07-28, 20:05	Link #15
Claies Good-Natured Asshole. Join Date: May 2007 Age: 34	Just one problem of many. I tend to summarize Japan's low birth-rate problem down to perfectionism. Generally, they would simply ignore anyone who is not perfect (men who are not manly, see "herbivorous boys"). I would imagine that being dumped over there is a much bigger deal and loss of face than in the West, just like being fired from your job, so the rejects have no choice but to turn to this. It's really very sad. Important: They'll appear creepy, but they're harmless. If you don't like them, don't look at them, that's it.

2009-07-28, 20:14	Link #16
klowny OH NO Join Date: May 2007 Location: New York Age: 32	I never understood why people fall for 2-D

2009-07-28, 20:44	Link #17
justavisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth	read the article, hmm that guy is a bit extreme..but I am not bothered by it too much I mean, in real world, there are ppl who choose to be single because they think they find the meaning of their lives..for example, monks from chinese won't get married because they think it's much more meaningful to become a buddha so they won't be trapped in the eternal cycle That guy from the article gives some goosebumps to ppl because he carries the pillow around XD...but let's say, if he keeps those things at home, he also participates well in social life, however he just won't marry because he thinks that particular anime character is all he needs, then what can we blame him for? There are many reasons that ppl choose to be single, falling for 2-D sounds weird, but it's legit... __________________ Come and join Ranka Lee Fanclub !!! Join our club and you will see 1)Ranka pics 2)Ranka/Alto pic 3)Relatively Sane discussion about Ranka 4)amv for Ranka To all old and new Sheryl fans: I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet

2009-07-28, 21:55	Link #19
yezhanquan Observer/Bookman wannabe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 38	Work-life integration is still sorely lacking in Japan. The newer generation know by instinct that workaholic salarymen are a relic of the past. It doesn't work. __________________

2009-07-28, 22:52	Link #20
Lio Presence Join Date: Jun 2009	I see Japan's social issues are still fine and dandy! But really, things like that are the result of the greedy consumer culture, poor social education, and loss of basic human wisdom. Ever since the advent of hardcore consumerism and materialism, people have lost touch with their nature. It's not just just Japan though. While America produces really dumb children, Japan produces...