Facepalm: Love in 2-D

[Throne Invader]

@Irenicus

Let's try to avoid talking about religion. Your understanding may differ from others. It'd just most likely fuel Christian and Buddhist forum members.

About the topic...

A part of me is definitely grossed out at this guy's situation but another part of me is trying to understand him. It must be really painful to be lonely and not feel being loved. Having a 2-D girlfriend is probably his only way of assuring himself that he's still a human being and that just like any other human being, he also deserves a companion to which he can share his life with. One thing that is certain is that he'll most definitely not get slapped, neither will he get scolded for being late, and he probably won't be getting into arguments with his pillow. I understand if this his way of distracting himself from any pain he's feeling but I don't think it'll help in the long run. It depends actually.

On the other hand, I seriously don’t think he should have resorted to this. What thing I do hope is that this part of Japanese culture does not seep through and find its way to other cultures.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

Let's try to avoid talking about religion. Your understanding may differ from others. It'd just most likely fuel Christian and Buddhist forum members.

Spoiler for off topic:

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people who are willing to agree to disagree when it comes to factual inaccuracies.

Lio's ideal by itself is really not against what I want to agree with. But I was speaking from a historical point of view, making caveats at every turn: I was explaining what the evidences and common mythologies say about them -- that they were not advocates of humans returning to a pure, natural state of happiness. Their messages were drastically different from that ideal which really belongs more to the 18th century Enlightenment philosophers like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his contemporaries than with the Jesus and Buddha as they are known for much of history. They did not argue that humans are naturally good (on the contrary for Christianity), that if freed from civilization they would naturally return to a happy state. The philosophies built around their names were different from this idea. Very very different.

Can Lio believe what he believes? Yes, of course, I actually like his idea somewhat more than Hobbes' version of a human. Can modern Buddhists and Christians believe that the message of their religion is what Lio said? Why, yes. Even if that's different from what past Buddhists and Christians believed? Of course they can. It might as well be the will of the Divine at work behind the "change." That is after all one of the key tenets of why Christians can accept discrepancies between the Old and New Testaments. Can I let it pass that this is really what past Buddhists and Christians attributed to their respective prophetic figures? Unfortunately, I can't. Call it bad habit and all, but I can't. The word he used, you see, is wisdom. Wisdom is a very vague term to adhere to, and without explanation it is nice-sounding but ultimately useless. I had to question, I had to be skeptical. It is...hm, human nature?

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

On the other hand, I seriously don’t think he should have resorted to this. What thing I do hope is that this part of Japanese culture does not seep through and find its way to other cultures.

I'm actually pretty curious as to why the hikkikomori phenomenon is so prevalent in Japan. Other countries have their shares of shut-ins and social rejects, countless in forms and variations, agoraphobias, etc., but the hikkikomori phenomenon stands out on its own as a modern issue in a single country.

It reminds me of those mental diseases that only occur in specific cultures. A very interesting thing the human psyche is.

Love for idealized forms is not new though. Though obviously not in 2-D vs. 3-D terms, the core idea is quite old in and of itself. Hüsrev fell in love with a painting of Shirin, Medieval romantics adore their beloved from afar...

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

On the other hand, I seriously don’t think he should have resorted to this. What thing I do hope is that this part of Japanese culture does not seep through and find its way to other cultures.

This is no different than the isolation of children branded with ADD or learning disabilities elsewhere in the world (to provide a more specific example) - the society that has passed swift judgment on them fail to understand what needs to be fixed about his behavior and his reasons for doing so. As the article mentioned, this phenomenon may just as well affect the anime fandom in North America and Europe. It goes beyond Japan for sure.

Furthermore, simply saying that "I would not have resorted to this in his case" or "He should've done something else" is presupposing that he is INITIALLY capable of doing so, and that is a question of his upbringing. Not everyone is capable of picking the usual or common method of expressing themselves for various reasons.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

There has always been a witchhunt for the socially different. It is just a way of society trying to "utopise" itself.

I believe this is quite applicable in a sense, especially with the responses from some of the comments on the article's website.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

[SPOILER="off topic"]I'm actually pretty curious as to why the hikkikomori phenomenon is so prevalent in Japan. Other countries have their shares of shut-ins and social rejects, countless in forms and variations, agoraphobias, etc., but the hikkikomori phenomenon stands out on its own as a modern issue in a single country.

It reminds me of those mental diseases that only occur in specific cultures. A very interesting thing the human psyche is.

Hikkikomori are a different topic altogether: this man is going outside, has a job, and even talks to people. The issue at hand here is whether his romantic interest for an inanimate object is capable of fulfilling his romantic interest for another human being.

If you're interested in hikkikomori, you can just read the wikipedia article on it. A lot of the reasons for the prevalence of hikkikomori in Japan has to do with Japanese society more specifically, while I think this article deals with the subject of consumerism and its impact on behavior, not acute social withdrawal.

And I believe those mental diseases are most often genetic.

[Throne Invader]

Well Japan has been branded the "eccentric" country. Other counties can be different too in some ways, but Japan has definitely made more turns from the universal norms.

@Kylaran

My "He shouldn't have resorted to this" statement just referred to the aspects of going all the way for the sake of finding love in that of the opposite gender. But if we view it in your sense, then I guess it's alright.

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

Well Japan has been branded the "eccentric" country. Other counties can be different too in some ways, but Japan has definitely made more turns from the universal norms.

Everyone country has just as many eccentric people. Why Americans like big cars is a complete mystery to me.

My "He shouldn't have resorted to this" statement just referred to the aspects of going all the way for the sake of finding love in that of the opposite gender. But if we view it in your sense, then I guess it's alright.

How is my sense different from yours? I'm confused.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying he shouldn't have gone to such lengths to search for love. I'm saying that what you said assumes a sense of individual choice when you used the word "resorted", which is not necessarily justified because it presupposes things about his personality. That is, that he has the ability to make the conscious choice in the first place. It's quite possible he found himself in the middle of the behavior, and later revised his stance so he would not have conflicting inner emotions.

Let me put it this way: why are there only a small amount of individuals among otaku that exhibit the same behavior as Nisan in the article? There are otaku in countries outside of Japan that show similar behavior as well. There could be several reasons beyond simply "loneliness" and "not feeling love" as you put it; quite a number of people feel those emotions, but it doesn't seem like just those emotional states are the prerequisites for acting this way. It's possible that there were events in his life that changed his way of dealing with things, which means that for him it's not a simple matter of choosing another option, and that a deeper psychological reason could underlie his behavior.

I suppose it's my fault for having the tendency to write ambiguously. I never get straight to the point. What I'm saying is that it's unclear that 1.) he possessed the ability to consciously choose to pursue romance in the 2-D realm, 2.) that it would be quite unfair to judge this method of expressing romance is wrong simply because it has violated traditional (and what was previously thought universal among humans), and 3.) if this phenomenon could happen in other countries, it is because societies around the world continue to disdain abnormal behavior.

The first two correspond to your comment saying, "He shouldn't have resorted to this." The second in response to your comment after that. Now, please tell me if I've misunderstood what you've said.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by Kylaran

Everyone country has just as many eccentric people. Why Americans like big cars is a complete mystery to me.



How is my sense different from yours? I'm confused.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying he shouldn't have gone to such lengths to search for love. I'm saying that what you said assumes a sense of individual choice when you used the word "resorted", which is not necessarily justified because it presupposes things about his personality. That is, that he has the ability to make the conscious choice in the first place. It's quite possible he found himself in the middle of the behavior, and later revised his stance so he would not have conflicting inner emotions.

Let me put it this way: why are there only a small amount of individuals among otaku that exhibit the same behavior as Nisan in the article? There are otaku in countries outside of Japan that show similar behavior as well. There could be several reasons beyond simply "loneliness" and "not feeling love" as you put it; quite a number of people feel those emotions, but it doesn't seem like just those emotional states are the prerequisites for acting this way. It's possible that there were events in his life that changed his way of dealing with things, which means that for him it's not a simple matter of choosing another option, and that a deeper psychological reason could underlie his behavior.

I suppose it's my fault for having the tendency to write ambiguously. I never get straight to the point. What I'm saying is that it's unclear that 1.) he possessed the ability to consciously choose to pursue romance in the 2-D realm, 2.) that it would be quite unfair to judge this method of expressing romance is wrong simply because it has violated traditional (and what was previously thought universal among humans), and 3.) if this phenomenon could happen in other countries, it is because societies around the world continue to disdain abnormal behavior.

The first two correspond to your comment saying, "He shouldn't have resorted to this." The second in response to your comment after that. Now, please tell me if I've misunderstood what you've said.

I'm not saying that Japan is the only country that has eccentric people. They're just labeled as so because of their culture which is actually more well known in comparison to other cultures. And well lots of people find parts of their culture weird or different.

My sense is different from yours because what I just meant with my statement was that his romance with his pillow was only serving as an outlet for his heartbreak. You're claiming that I said his upbringing was already the problem to begin with.

You can be at the beginning ,at the middle, or 1/3rd of the way and you can still make a choice. You can alter your stance and pursue, or you can back away. But I know that being able to change really won't be that easy especially if you're already very attached to your current situation. But I'm not saying that I'm forcing him to change. As long as he's not doing anything harmful to others, I'd say just leave him be. It doesn't seem that he's retarded in any way so I still say he's capable of making a choice on his own.

Yes, some people do grow up and behave a certain way because of events that happened in their lives. In some instances, behavior that seems weird or abnormal to the universal ideals. Humankind is very complex and certainly not easy to understand. You think you've gotten something figured out, then something different results. Again, I really can't blame them for the way they feel since they grew up differently. They look at things differently and have different urges, opinions, and ideas. But asides from that, whether they feel that way or not, if they choose to act upon their feelings or do action or exhibit action, then it's a different story now.

Regarding your number 2.), I don't think it's unfair that some people choose to judge 2-D love/romance in a negative way. It does violate tradition, one of the parties doesn't have any feelings, and I don't think it's anywhere near fading away. The person's happy with his imaginary love and then society will just keep on adapting and adapting until there will actually be real weddings for this. Kylaran, it's good to know that you're a very sympathetic person and that you're very open-minded and accepting of these "different" circumstances, but I for one will not choose to tolerate this idea. I do not dislike or hate the person but I do not like the idea of 2-D love/romance itself. I'm fine if his romance continues and it makes him happy, but as for society, I just don't desire for this kind of romance to spread and to keep on growing and start changing the real meaning of romance.

[iLney]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

<snip>
.....the real meaning of romance.

Woo.... hold your horse right there....

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by FragrantFlora

My sense is different from yours because what I just meant with my statement was that his romance with his pillow was only serving as an outlet for his heartbreak. You're claiming that I said his upbringing was already the problem to begin with.

You've misunderstood me. That's not what I claimed you said. Upbringing is merely an example of of how it's possible for his past experience to influence his actions in the present. I am saying that there's not necessarily the ability to choose "I'm going to seek this outlet for my romantic frustrations," as you've said. The topic at hand is your belief that he has the ability to choose. I'm arguing that he might not necessarily have that ability of choice. Obviously you think differently from what I do, and that's perfectly fine.

You can be at the beginning ,at the middle, or 1/3rd of the way and you can still make a choice. You can alter your stance and pursue, or you can back away. But I know that being able to change really won't be that easy especially if you're already very attached to your current situation. But I'm not saying that I'm forcing him to change. As long as he's not doing anything harmful to others, I'd say just leave him be. It doesn't seem that he's retarded in any way so I still say he's capable of making a choice on his own.

I'm not saying you're saying he should be forced to change, either. But what I am saying is that assuming his behavior is wrong because it violates tradition means assuming that tradition had it right in the first place. We could discover something important about ourselves through this phenomenon, but never realize it if we continue to think this behavior should be eliminated and don't even look closely at it with a critical eye. And this is all because we, as a society, wrote him off and said: "Oh, poor him. He's lonely."

I do not dislike or hate the person but I do not like the idea of 2-D love/romance itself. I'm fine if his romance continues and it makes him happy, but as for society, I just don't desire for this kind of romance to spread and to keep on growing and start changing the real meaning of romance.

I have no qualms with this. I agree that he should be left alone. I'm simply debating with you the reasons why I think you can't ascribe personal choice as the ultimate deciding factor in choosing whether you love or not, because many aspects of being human are out of our conscious control (my personal opinion, of course). As you said before, humans are complex and each individual is different, so assuming that we all have the same set of skills means we're not looking to understand why this happens.

I think it's quite weird that he has reached such extremes, too. It's not like I'm saying: "Go head! If you want to be like this, do it." I don't think it's practical, and there are several reasons I have against living the way he does, but I do think that there is something more to this than people say there are. We'd lose a chance to understand ourselves if we exclude him as a regular person because he acts irregularly on the outside.

[einhorn303]

I'm really surprised how many stridently anti-otaku posters there are here...this is an anime forum, for chrissakes. 2D love is a form of love which makes far more sense in the post-industrial, post-modern times we inhabit.

Also, 2D love isn't really the same as being romantically attracted to an animate object. It be far more accurate to describe it as being romantically attracted to your own imagination, or a social imagination (the otaku culture and creators that produce objects of 2D love).

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

I'm really surprised how many stridently anti-otaku posters there are here...this is an anime forum, for chrissakes. 2D love is a form of love which makes far more sense in the post-industrial, post-modern times we inhabit.

Also, 2D love isn't really the same as being romantically attracted to an animate object. It be far more accurate to describe it as being romantically attracted to your own imagination, or a social imagination (the otaku culture and creators that produce objects of 2D love).

I wouldn't say alot of us posting on this thread are anti - otaku. I kind of find otaku cute in a way. But somehow, the guy in the article has just brought his otaku love to a much more extreme level, a level which alot of us are uncomfortable with.