Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

One could argue that every system of government on earth can easily be catastrophically subverted.

Some less so than others. When power is dispersed and information widespread, for example, it becomes more difficult.

CB relied on a computer that nobody understood, and treated it like an oracle, like a messenger from God. It also was very secretive about its goals - no political front at all, just secret societies moving god knows how. So, yeah. From the moment someone hacked into Veda, they were screwed. And even before that...

And if Ribbons hadn't betrayed CB, it would be the same result as when you have a good leader in charge; everything is rosy.

So, what was their endgame? How were they going to make world peace? Impose it through terror?

And on that note, the nations you are supporting in CB are the ones being easily and catastrophically subverted. So why are you still supporting them?

I'm not. I'm saying, the sword is all very nice, but you can't neglect the pen. Which is what the CB have been doing, and are still doing. They're not being heroic. They're, as in S1, throwing a tantrum, not caring about the deaths they cause.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not. I'm saying, the sword is all very nice, but you can't neglect the pen. Which is what the CB have been doing, and are still doing. They're not being heroic. They're, as in S1, throwing a tantrum, not caring about the deaths they cause.

First, since no one cared about the deaths that was caused to them, CB members felt justified that they had to do something themselves. After all, people like Saji certainly aren't going to care. The way Saji complained about losing a few family members, to a former child soldier who had his homeland destroyed, is exactly why you can't count on people who do nothing. Saji was so blind that he assumed his government can do no wrong. Such people are sheep who turn a blind eye while the world goes to hell.

Second, CB HAD the pen. That pen was the Corner family, who was suppose to influence the UN in a positive direction. And Ribbons was suppose to help.

The Meisters are the swords, and they assumed that their counterparts would do their jobs with the pen. Things didn't work out, but that's why there is a backup plan.

So, what was their endgame? How were they going to make world peace? Impose it through terror?

The Misters are just the military division of CB. You are mistaken to think fighting is all that CB was.

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

My point is, to change the world for the better, you need more than a gun.

Of course. I won't be a madman and tell otherwise. Solving a conflict without a single shot fired is the best possible solution. That's what many of our present organizations strive to succeed in.

I also won't be a naive 'Wing' idealist and say that talks can solve everything. There are more then plenty of situations and 'worlds' where talking will get more people killed or just won't solve anything.

Would talking solve the problems of 00 world? 300 years of talking didn't change a thing. Would talking change the ways of A-Laws? Would anything change their way if a tyrannical ruler gives them full authority over people's lives while those who have their peace accept this rule? Maybe, just maybe CB right now tries to find that answer and their first step is the very core of the misconduct.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Second, CB HAD the pen. That pen was the Corner family, who was suppose to influence the UN in a positive direction. And Ribbons was suppose to help.
The Meisters are the swords, and they assumed that their counterparts would do their jobs with the pen. Things didn't work out, but that's why there is a backup plan.
The Misters are just the military division of CB. You are mistaken to think fighting is all that CB was.

That's exactly the point I didn't see anyone making, thus far. They were working on both fronts, the military and the political. Things just didn't work out the way they were supposed to. Hey, not every prediction comes about the way they were meant to - even if you do have countless countermeasures, sometimes things just slip by.

[Kelrys]

The Obama of Gundam 00 show up again He is feeding Ribbons info or the other way round?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

First, since no one cared about the deaths that was caused to them, CB members felt justified that they had to do something themselves. After all, people like Saji certainly aren't going to care. The way Saji complained about losing a few family members, to a former child soldier who had his homeland destroyed, is exactly why you can't count on people who do nothing.

Hello? Kataron? They were already doing something. Granted, they may not be better than the CB at getting their ideas across. WTH are their ideas anyway?

Saji was so blind that he assumed his government can do no wrong. Such people are sheep who turn a blind eye while the world goes to hell.

Second, CB HAD the pen. That pen was the Corner family, who was suppose to influence the UN in a positive direction. And Ribbons was suppose to help.

A secret pen. Whoopee. Hell, we don't even know what the hell he really was supposed to do.

The Meisters are the swords, and they assumed that their counterparts would do their jobs with the pen.

Don't they watch the news? Didn't they notice that their message wasn't being published? That at best, the world was being forced to unite against them, but that that union would just go wherever once they were gone? In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't disintegrated already. I guess the fact the CB not being totally uncovered and staying on as a bogeyman helped. So did the terrorists from Kataron.

Things didn't work out, but that's why there is a backup plan.

Is there? What's the backup plan? According to Setsuna, they've pretty much given up on world peace. They're just using what resources they've left to fight the big bad A-Laws. Is that going to change anything?

The Misters are just the military division of CB. You are mistaken to think fighting is all that CB was.

And yet we've seen precious little else. Build gundams, find targets for gundams, and wank about what nice little war machines gundam are. What else have they done?

Originally Posted by Urei

Of course. I won't be a madman and tell otherwise. Solving a conflict without a single shot fired is the best possible solution. That's what many of our present organizations strive to succeed in.

I also won't be a naive 'Wing' idealist and say that talks can solve everything. There are more then plenty of situations and 'worlds' where talking will get more people killed or just won't solve anything.

Would talking solve the problems of 00 world? 300 years of talking didn't change a thing. Would talking change the ways of A-Laws? Would anything change their way if a tyrannical ruler gives them full authority over people's lives while those who have their peace accept this rule? Maybe, just maybe CB right now tries to find that answer and their first step is the very core of the misconduct.

I'm not trying to argue for pacifism. I'm not saying you can always win without firing a shot. I'm saying that if all you do is shoot, you'll get pyrrhic victories at best.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And yet we've seen precious little else. Build gundams, find targets for gundams, and wank about what nice little war machines gundam are. What else have they done?

According to the World Report Book, long before the interventions CB had been shaping the development of the world in the shadows, in fact Veda had a hand in steering the world towards favoring Solar Energy and foresaking nuclear power (a major nuclear accident in the Middle East several years back was only to their advantage, whether intentionally or not is unknown).

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And yet we've seen precious little else. Build gundams, find targets for gundams, and wank about what nice little war machines gundam are. What else have they done?

The answer to that question was presented in the series itself, during the episode when the heads of the world debated about surrendering their hold on the world economy and casing their continuing armed conflicts. And they agreed it must be done.

This was the end result of CB's Plan to change the world. I wish you would not omit crucial info.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not trying to argue for pacifism. I'm not saying you can always win without firing a shot. I'm saying that if all you do is shoot, you'll get pyrrhic victories at best.

How can you win against the odds I've presented you with? What we've been presented in the 00 world. No one could for 300 years of time. Yet, CB did more then just descend and fight. Their ideology produced favorable results. Wasn't that shown over and over in the series ... ?

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Some less so than others. When power is dispersed and information widespread, for example, it becomes more difficult.

CB relied on a computer that nobody understood, and treated it like an oracle, like a messenger from God. It also was very secretive about its goals - no political front at all, just secret societies moving god knows how. So, yeah. From the moment someone hacked into Veda, they were screwed. And even before that...

So, what was their endgame? How were they going to make world peace? Impose it through terror?

I'm not. I'm saying, the sword is all very nice, but you can't neglect the pen. Which is what the CB have been doing, and are still doing. They're not being heroic. They're, as in S1, throwing a tantrum, not caring about the deaths they cause.

You make it sound as if they are all heartless monsters...

CB's goal was to unite the world under one flag to put an end to war and consent never ending power struggles in S1 they reached that goal just not the way they planned. The world became united under the Federation but it's been corrupted so now CB need to come back to purge the corruption a.k.a the A-LAWS.

You see they are not take over the world but save it because the A-LAWS won't stop their fighting.

[Anh_Minh]

Any... "peace" obtained from fear of the CB would be temporary at best. For one thing, there'll always be someone to fire the first shot. And then what?

People don't fight just for the fun of it. They certainly don't blow themselves up just for the fun of it. What can four gundams do against that?

Besides, eventually, people would smarten up and move the fight against the CB where MS just aren't relevant. And note, that was then.

Now, they've lost most of their technological advantage, and they've lost Veda. And they're still trying to make the world give up on its right to defend itself by fighting it.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You see they are not take over the world but save it because the A-LAWS won't stop their fighting.

For all the evil calling towards A-LAWS though, all we have seen them do is fight terrorists (kataron). Granted they went a bit overboard with the 'testing' of their new drones on the captured members, but thats that. For all we know, death penalty is the norm for captured terrorists in G00 world. Its not like we have seen A-LAWS suppress citizens and eat babies for dinner, have we. They are carrying out their mission of fighting terrorists. Thye might be ruthless about it, but on the other hand, given the radical and hostile organization Kataron is, there is not much reason not to be.

And i actually didn't like Setsuna's little 'lecture' to Saji. I didn't like the underlying message (however unintentional it might be) that they are ultimately justified in destroying some lives as long as their objectives "for the greater good" are met. They are basically fanatics that think they are justified in whatever they are doing (And worst - their thought process doesn't seem very far-reaching), and that any accidents along the way, however unfortunate. are justified as well. They are not a rational organization, nor was Setsuna's argument a rational one, nor is there any objective assertion their existence was actually justified in the first place.

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Any... "peace" obtained from fear of the CB would be temporary at best. For one thing, there'll always be someone to fire the first shot. And then what?

People don't fight just for the fun of it. They certainly don't blow themselves up just for the fun of it. What can four gundams do against that?

Besides, eventually, people would smarten up and move the fight against the CB where MS just aren't relevant. And note, that was then.

Now, they've lost most of their technological advantage, and they've lost Veda. And they're still trying to make the world give up on its right to defend itself by fighting it.

You are mistaken if you think they created a new world order. All CB managed to do was to make the leaders consider changing their way in which they succeeded. How the world developed itself after that was not for CB's tyranny to decide. The first step is the hardest.

Besides, what you described is the present situation of 00 world. In your version the CB is the ruler and executor but just look at the situation. Switch this CB of yours with A-Laws and you get your answer.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

They are not a rational organization, nor was Setsuna's argument a rational one, nor is there any objective assertion their existence was actually justified in the first place.

Well CB is not Setsuna, so his opinion doesn't reflect CB or Schenberg vision at all. Actually Setsuna and all the other members shouldn't do any thinking at all, they are soldiers, and recruiting new members is a big no no, if veda was still accessible. If we consider that the ulitmate goal for CB is to fulfil Schenberg vision, then Ribbons might be closer to the objective than the (headless) CB organisaion, at the moment.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Urei

You are mistaken if you think they created a new world order. All CB managed to do was to make the leaders consider changing their way in which they succeeded. How the world developed itself after that was not for CB's tyranny to decide. The first step is the hardest.

Besides, what you described is the present situation of 00 world. In your version the CB is the ruler and executor but just look at the situation. Switch this CB of yours with A-Laws and you get your answer.

You've lost me. I don't even know what you're saying.

[LoweGear]

I do kinda like how the 00 has always portrayed each side's respective idealogies: While deep down they know they might be wrong, they believe anyway because it's what they know and do, and how there's no "perfect" ideal being preached around.

Like Lasse said, "People will die whether we do anything or not".

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You've lost me. I don't even know what you're saying.

I'm saying that the world which has a defined target as CB is not possible as CB would not become something like a tyrannical ruler, demonized and hated. Their mission was to ignite the change and they succeeded.

A world where such ruler exists, the world you said that would go create war once more is the world we are witnessing right now, that we witnessed for the past 3 episodes of 00.

I do kinda like how the 00 has always portrayed each side's respective idealogies: While deep down they know they might be wrong, they believe anyway because it's what they know and do, and how there's no "perfect" ideal being preached around.

Like Lasse said, "People will die whether we do anything or not".

I really with we could end this post argument with that. It's neutral enough.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

And i actually didn't like Setsuna's little 'lecture' to Saji. I didn't like the underlying message (however unintentional it might be) that they are ultimately justified in destroying some lives as long as their objectives "for the greater good" are met. They are basically fanatics that think they are justified in whatever they are doing (And worst - their thought process doesn't seem very far-reaching), and that any accidents along the way, however unfortunate. are justified as well. They are not a rational organization, nor was Setsuna's argument a rational one, nor is there any objective assertion their existence was actually justified in the first place.

Setsuna is just pointing out a contradiction in the world. People are fine with war and killing unless the killing and war influences themselves or those around them. Saji thought the world was at peace until CB came which is far from the case. He just wasn't affected by it so he didn't care. I don't think Setsuna was trying to justify what he does but trying to make him understand his point of view.

[tezu]

Hm. Interesting discussion here XD

I think that it is easy to sympathize with CB, since they're the protagonists and we're all fans of the meisters. It is fiction, and hence, we have heroes and typical villains who cause misunderstandings, war etc., like corner, ribbons, the Thrones or Ali. But try to imagine such an organisation in real life. It gets a lot harder to accept their behaviour if you think realistically. And that's why I have to agree with Anh_Minh.

After CB intervened in S1, the previously "scattered", "small"/"compressed" conflicts got a much greater dimension (the world wasn't, like, in a total chaos with everyone killing everyone), broadening the suffering so that "normal, lucky people" like Saji, felt the consequences, too. Okay, then, why not argue like Setsuna ("Is it okay for others to suffer?"): If 1 out of 10 people suffers, let's torture the remaining 9, too so that we are all equal - that way we will bring peace! So okay, they chose this war for a good cause, using the motto "the end justifies the means", causing the world to concentrate shoot at CB instead of themselves.

But did this lead to sustainable peace?

The moment CB retreated, we saw what became of the world: a sinister group gained control. And who says that any other group wouldn't exploit their powerful position - I mean, we're talking about ruling the world here! The world was only a union as long as CB was there. It was a ridiculous idea to have "one" peaceful world anyway, there are different countries, cultures, religions and they cannot be unified. Conflicts are bound to happen because no one wants to give up their power. Humans are aggressive, there is no doubt about it and it will be never changed. The best thing that can be done is to keep this agression down. I'm not saying that it is okay for people in particular countries to suffer from war, but spreading the war, turning it into a "war against the world" is surely not the right solution, either.

The current situation with A-Laws inventing automatic killing machines etc., is caused by CB, that is my opinion. That is why I am for CB taking responsibility for their actions in S2. But S1 was clearly their fault. They worsened the situation, for what are the A-Laws any different from the terrorist groups who destroyed Setsuna's and Neil's lives?

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

For all the evil calling towards A-LAWS though, all we have seen them do is fight terrorists (kataron). Granted they went a bit overboard with the 'testing' of their new drones on the captured members, but thats that. For all we know, death penalty is the norm for captured terrorists in G00 world. Its not like we have seen A-LAWS suppress citizens and eat babies for dinner, have we. They are carrying out their mission of fighting terrorists. Thye might be ruthless about it, but on the other hand, given the radical and hostile organization Kataron is, there is not much reason not to be.

And i actually didn't like Setsuna's little 'lecture' to Saji. I didn't like the underlying message (however unintentional it might be) that they are ultimately justified in destroying some lives as long as their objectives "for the greater good" are met. They are basically fanatics that think they are justified in whatever they are doing (And worst - their thought process doesn't seem very far-reaching), and that any accidents along the way, however unfortunate. are justified as well. They are not a rational organization, nor was Setsuna's argument a rational one, nor is there any objective assertion their existence was actually justified in the first place.

Well how do we know that Kataron's reasons for fighting aren't legit? For all we know the A-LAWS are going into battle killing anything that moves (Men, Women, and Children) just because they can. So until I see other wise A-LAWS = Corrupt.

I actually enjoyed Setsuna's talk with Saji because it shows how people can be naive most people are when it comes to their understanding on the how painful the world can be. There are people who suffer everyday of their lives but most just shrug it off because "Hey it's not my problem."

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Urei

I'm saying that the world which has a defined target as CB is not possible as CB would not become something like a tyrannical ruler, demonized and hated.

They don't need to be tyrannical rulers. Terrorists, which they are, are also hated. ("Oh, so we were having this nice wedding, and the CB came and started shooting out of nowhere!"). Or maybe they're in league with The Man. ("We were having a revolution, because our people are oppressed, but the CB came and enforce the statu quo."). Or maybe they're helping terrorists. ("OK, so we were policemen, doing policework, putting down riots and all, but apparently the CB doesn't approve of us having weapons, so they killed us all.")

Their mission was to ignite the change and they succeeded.

Oh, the world changed alright. For the better? Even they don't seem to think so.


And you don't need a "tyranical ruler" for tensions to flare. And what would the CB have done about that?