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Old 2019-06-07, 21:53   Link #19321
kk2extreme
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Soma serve first...

He might lose though... but no flashbacks yet
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Old 2019-06-07, 22:17   Link #19322
SilverGlavenus
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Originally Posted by B214 View Post
Besides, did Senzaemon kill anyone? Did he destroy anyone's restaurant/shop to save his daughter or granddaughter? He didn't, he just went to a more extreme step to pull people into his school.
Sure you can say that Senzaemon did all this for his beloved daughter and granddaughter, and I agree. But the level of stupidity in his plan is absurd. It basically is
relying on outsiders to solve the family's problem. Had Soma and the others in this generation lacked just a little bit of tenacity and perseverance, the whole plan would've been fucked, and all the expelled students would have had their dreams and careers crushed unnecessarily.

Now I pity Soma even more, his entire time in Tootsuki, save for some moments, were to clean up other people's messes, especially his father Jou and Erina's family.
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Old 2019-06-07, 22:59   Link #19323
B214
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Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
That's such a weak argument in my opinion. By that logic, we can't critique pretty much any fictional characters actions because we're always "bystanders." How can you criticize if you're not in their shoes? For example, Azami was just doing everything necessary to ensure his plans to help his wife and daughter. It was all he could come up with. So I think people are being too harsh to him. Sure he cheated and didn't care about the other students, but family is more important.

It also doesn't matter that things turned out okay. Senzaemon in his own words said "Whatever the cost or sacrifice, I'll make sure there's hope for Erina." He didn't give a shit about the students he invited or their fates. He admitted he was being selfish. The outcome isn't what makes him an asshole. It's the intent.
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Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus View Post
Sure you can say that Senzaemon did all this for his beloved daughter and granddaughter, and I agree. But the level of stupidity in his plan is absurd. It basically is relying on outsiders to solve the family's problem. Had Soma and the others in this generation lacked just a little bit of tenacity and perseverance, the whole plan would've been fucked, and all the expelled students would have had their dreams and careers crushed unnecessarily.

Now I pity Soma even more, his entire time in Tootsuki, save for some moments, were to clean up other people's messes, especially his father Jou and Erina's family.
Condemn and criticsm are different actions. Currently people are condemning not criticism, criticism involves judging the merit and faults of someone/something.

I myself think that Senzaemon is selfish for manipulating others for his own means but while Senzaemon did manipulate them, the fact that the students he manipulated also benefited from entering the school is undeniable. Besides, do you think just by manipulating it means it will go well. If Jouichiro is adamant enough not to let Soma join, what can Senzaemon do? Same for the other parents.

Jouichiro himself did wanted Soma to enter the school for his own scheme to let Soma grow as well, the same for most others like the Aldini Brothers and Megumi. Their parents themselves wanted the children to enter. This isn't just a one side manipulation from Senzaemon, the parents themselves also play a hand into them joining because they themselves wanted to make use of Senzaemon back. In that case, does this means the parents are evil and manipulative bastards as well for making their children go with Senzaemon's scheme and enter Totsuki.
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Old 2019-06-07, 23:50   Link #19324
kampfer91
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This is like the author just remember he wrote something something on chapter 1 and now he gonna use it again........when only 2 chapters left ....

No development , nothing , just out of blue .
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Old 2019-06-07, 23:57   Link #19325
Tyrant Ruler
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The thing is you can't put the blame on the other parents. From what we saw in this chapter none of then knew that their child would be use to make erina look good . All of them though the reason why senzaemon came to then was simply cause their child is just that good not because their good enough for he own gained
the only exception is Joe who himself participate in that save the nakiri womans . If soma and his gang didn't insisted they wouldve got expelled and their chef Career along with it. If azami had succeed senzaemon would've sacrifice everyone for nothing he got lucky that soma manage to clean his mess.

Last edited by Tyrant Ruler; 2019-06-08 at 00:13.
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Old 2019-06-08, 00:03   Link #19326
GendoAizenPig
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@B214

As Tyrant said, there's nothing to imply that any of the parents other than Alice's and Soma's knew about Senzaemon's true agenda. All of the rest of the parents just enrolled their kids who enjoy cooking into the best cooking school. So I don't what you're even talking about. They were manipulated too.

As for the whole condemn vs criticize thing, I think you're purposely nitpicking just for the sake of it. They're largely the same to the point that many thesauruses list them as synonyms.

I don't know why the fact that nothing bad happened somehow makes the act not shitty. That's not relevant.

For what it's worth I also think Joichiro is a shitty person too. From scheming with Senzaemon to creating a monster like Asahi, he's not all that much better.
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Old 2019-06-08, 00:23   Link #19327
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
That's such a weak argument in my opinion. By that logic, we can't critique pretty much any fictional characters actions because we're always "bystanders." How can you criticize if you're not in their shoes? For example, Azami was just doing everything necessary to ensure his plans to help his wife and daughter. It was all he could come up with. So I think people are being too harsh to him. Sure he cheated and didn't care about the other students, but family is more important.

It also doesn't matter that things turned out okay. Senzaemon in his own words said "Whatever the cost or sacrifice, I'll make sure there's hope for Erina." He didn't give a shit about the students he invited or their fates. He admitted he was being selfish. The outcome isn't what makes him an asshole. It's the intent.
You can't judge the someone's morality by only intent or outcome, but both.

Senzaemon and Azami had the same intent, but the way they went about it is what determines their objective morality.

Azami abused his daughter, deliberately schemed to ruin people's businesses and a bunch of other stuff.

Senzaemon offered kids a place at his school. He coerced no one and even went out of his way to give disadvantaged children a chance at a world class education they wouldn't have received otherwise.

Their parents, who were connected to the food industry were well aware of the risks of sending their kids to the school and went ahead anyway because of the potential benefits. Senzaemon himself told the children to their faces that he was going to be using competetiton to raise better chefs. The fact that Senzaemon was hoping his own family would benefit too doesn't change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
@B214

As Tyrant said, there's nothing to imply that any of the parents other than Alice's and Soma's knew about Senzaemon's true agenda. All of the rest of the parents just enrolled their kids who enjoy cooking into the best cooking school. So I don't what you're even talking about. They were manipulated too.
Manipulated how? They sent their children to that school, knowing that whole point of the place was to use competition to create better chefs, and hoping their own children would benefit from the failure of other children. Senzaemon is literally doing what everyone else is doing.

Quote:
For what it's worth I also think Joichiro is a shitty person too. From scheming with Senzaemon to creating a monster like Asahi, he's not all that much better.
How is Jouichirou to blame for a grown man like Asahi's illegal activities again?
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Old 2019-06-08, 01:02   Link #19328
GendoAizenPig
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I can actually judge a persons morality anyway I want. Both of them cared only about their family, but used vastly different methods. They manipulated people to achieve their goals in an underhanded fashion. That makes them both assholes to me. That's how I feel about it. Azami was worse to be sure and I never argued otherwise. Senzaemon doing "nice things" to get what he wants doesn't make him a good person. He knew which pawns he wanted for Erina and did what was needed to get them. He wasn't being altruistic. He himself said he was being selfish and said he didn't care if the other students were "sacrificed" for her sake. It's right there in chapter.

Their parents knew what they were getting into with regards to the school. They didn't know that their kids were being set up to be used by the Nakiris to help Erina become the best there ever was. They may not have accepted had they known their kids were being used as stepping stones and that Senzaemon was willing to "sacrifice" them if need be. That's how they were manipulated. There's a big difference between "Hey, you want to let your kid go to the best cooking school around" and "Hey, I need your kid to take on my granddaughter so she can become the best chef around, but your kid and business's future could be ruined forever if she whims it." I don't know how to make my position on this any clearer. Getting expelled from Totsuki isn't a culinary death sentence, but Erina was shown to be if she wanted. Even if the kids knew they'd be in class with her it wasn't the same as being setup to go head to head with her. A lot of people would be okay with gambling on their child not passing an elite school, but I doubt the same amount would be okay with risking their livelihood on top of that.

Joichiro could've probably prevented Asahi from becoming what he was by just taking him back to Japan with him when he was still a child (15). Instead he caused a bunch of problems for his son and became a criminal. So yeah, I kind of blame him in part for the way Asahi turned out. You can't just play pretend dad with an orphan and then leave him.
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Old 2019-06-08, 01:29   Link #19329
Endscape
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Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
I can actually judge a persons morality anyway I want. Both of them cared only about their family, but used vastly different methods. They manipulated people to achieve their goals in an underhanded fashion. That makes them both assholes to me. That's how I feel about it. Azami was worse to be sure and I never argued otherwise. Senzaemon doing "nice things" to get what he wants doesn't make him a good person.
The difference is that Senzaemon's method barely qualify as 'underhanded' if at all.

Quote:
He knew which pawns he wanted for Erina and did what was needed to get them.
You're making it sound like he threatened the parents to send their kids to the school. All he did was offer an invitation.

Quote:
Their parents knew what they were getting into with regards to the school. They didn't know that their kids were being set up to be used by the Nakiris to help Erina become the best there ever was.
The whole function of the school is for kids to take each other on to become the best there ever was. They all knew that his grandaughter was going to the school though, so yes, they did know their kids were going to have to compete with Erina.

Senzaemon didn't do anything to give Erina an unfair leg up over anyone he brought in, so it's disingenous to say they were being set up.

Quote:
They may not have accepted had they known their kids were being used as stepping stones and that Senzaemon was willing to "sacrifice" them if need be.
Of course they knew. This is how the school works.Senzaemon told the students to their faces that 99% of them were stepping stones for the 1%. Senzaemon did not change the rules to suddenly make the place more competitive.

Quote:
That's how they were manipulated. There's a big difference between "Hey, you want to let your kid go to the best cooking school around" and "Hey, I need your kid to take on my granddaughter so she can become the best chef around, but your kid and business's future could be ruined forever if she whims it."
Again, that is how Totsuki has worked since forever. All the parents knew that was a possibility going in. You're acting as if the place was a normal school that was suddenly changed to benefit Erina.

Quote:
Joichiro could've probably prevented Asahi from becoming what he was by just taking him back to Japan with him when he was still a child (15). Instead he caused a bunch of problems for his son and became a criminal. So yeah, I kind of blame him in part for the way Asahi turned out. You can't just play pretend dad with an orphan and then leave him.
Cross-country adoption is not as easy as you make it sound.
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Old 2019-06-08, 01:58   Link #19330
GendoAizenPig
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It's your opinion that it wasn't underhanded. I don't agree. So i'm dropping it. I can't argue with an opinion.

You made a point to say that Senzaemon did good things and I just said he did what he needed to get what he wanted. Nothing more. I didn't make it sound like that at all. I was mostly referring to what he did for Hayama, but honestly inviting a bunch of kids to a school that might've otherwise not been scouted applies too.

The whole reason of the school is to become accomplished chefs. Shokugeki matches were like a special event that a lot of students didn't participate in. Erina also was part of the elite 10 from the get go so unless she came looking for them there was no reason to think they'd have to compete with her aside from class wide events which were shown to be mostly pass/fail classes judged by teachers. Erina is a prodigy with a super powered tongue so she didn't really need any help, but it's doubtful she didn't have advantages on top of that just for being a Nakiri. I mean she was judging other student admissions when series started so she was never on the rest of her class's level.

They knew how the school worked in general, but students lives weren't ruined just by failing. They wouldn't become top chefs sure, but they could still work in the culinary industry. Setting them up against Erina is completely different because she could blacklist them just on her word. So by purposely setting them up to challenge Erina they were playing by more dangerous rules than what's expected from Totsuki.

Joichirou could've phone Senzaemon to help him? I mean he made Hayama a citizen after all. Probably could've even enrolled him at Totsuki too. He had options.
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Old 2019-06-08, 02:31   Link #19331
Anh_Minh
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Tootsuki's system in general is stupid and bad and shouldn't work. The Nakiri's power in the culinary industry, including and especially Erina's, is stupid and bad and shouldn't exist.

None of those things are altered one way or the other by Senzaemon trying a bit harder to recruit students.
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Old 2019-06-08, 07:17   Link #19332
Tyrant Ruler
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So your defending senzaemon by saying their parents knew about the school being competitive. but completely ignore that it wasn't senzaemon plan he wants to stop the god tongue curse by using that school competitions as a cover . None of the parents knew about that part . They reason their was not to compete it was for god tongue you keep using their parents knew it's a competitive when that wasn't the point at all. God tongue was the reason I don't how your missing that point if you want to defend senzaemon for using the parents and kids to save his daughter and grand daughter by using oh they knew it was a competitive school but your ignoring that it was about the god tongue and ignore senzaemon himself said his selfish go ahead of that's how you see it.
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Old 2019-06-08, 07:35   Link #19333
DragonOsman
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He wanted to save his daughter and granddaughter from the curse of the God Tongue and he admitted to being selfish and not caring about the students that get sacrificed for it, that's all true. But in my book he's still a better necessary evil than Mana or Azami and I can't completely hate him for this.

The point I think Anh_Minh is trying to make about the school being competitive being something everyone knew about ties into that. Yes, the main point was to save Erina and Mana from the curse of the God Tongue, but the method chosen was to use the competitiveness of the school for that to some extent.

And yes, it's true that Erina can end culinary careers on a whim, and that wanting to pit students against her makes Senzaemon an asshole. But you guys have yourselves pointed out that Erina never competed against any of the students. And Senzaemon didn't do anything to make it so that Erina would face those students in matches, either. Only other Elite 10 members from when the series started, Souma, and the people who participated in BLUE competed against her or even had any chance to.

And I also remember that Senzaemon said in his opening speech at the start of the school year that he wants to use 99% of the student body as stepping stones for the betterment of the 1%. Everyone already knew about that. And yes, that's just how Tootsuki was from the beginning. Senzaemon didn't change the school or its system just for the sake of saving his daughter and granddaughter from the curse of the God Tongue.
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Old 2019-06-08, 08:20   Link #19334
Tyrant Ruler
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He wanted to save his daughter and granddaughter from the curse of the God Tongue and he admitted to being selfish and not caring about the students that get sacrificed for it, that's all true. But in my book he's still a better necessary evil than Mana or Azami and I can't completely hate him for this.

The point I think Anh_Minh is trying to make about the school being competitive being something everyone knew about ties into that. Yes, the main point was to save Erina and Mana from the curse of the God Tongue, but the method chosen was to use the competitiveness of the school for that to some extent.

And yes, it's true that Erina can end culinary careers on a whim, and that wanting to pit students against her makes Senzaemon an asshole. But you guys have yourselves pointed out that Erina never competed against any of the students. And Senzaemon didn't do anything to make it so that Erina would face those students in matches, either. Only other Elite 10 members from when the series started, Souma, and the people who participated in BLUE competed against her or even had any chance to.

And I also remember that Senzaemon said in his opening speech at the start of the school year that he wants to use 99% of the student body as stepping stones for the betterment of the 1%. Everyone already knew about that. And yes, that's just how Tootsuki was from the beginning. Senzaemon didn't change the school or its system just for the sake of saving his daughter and granddaughter from the curse of the God Tongue.
all what you said has some true except the part he didn't do it for his daugher and grand daughter this chapter proves that he said himself . That jewels generation which he scout and gathered was to cured the god tongue . The school system helps him more to achieve that its just that simple. No one is saying senzaemon is evil their just saying his manipulative of things which at the end benefits himself.
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Old 2019-06-08, 08:33   Link #19335
DragonOsman
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I never said he didn't do it for Mana and Erina, or that the system didn't help him, did I? That's exactly what I said. Read more carefully please.
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Old 2019-06-08, 09:02   Link #19336
Tyrant Ruler
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I never said he didn't do it for Mana and Erina, or that the system didn't help him, did I? That's exactly what I said. Read more carefully please.
i know what you say if it appears that I said you said that Senzaemon didn't do it to help erina and Mana too I'm sorry . My point Was for senzaemon that it was only did that for his baby girls and nothing else. everything else didn't matter for him personally even though it appears other things matters for him.
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Old 2019-06-08, 09:08   Link #19337
DragonOsman
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I know he was selfish and didn't care how many students were "sacrificed" for Erina's sake, but he didn't push for students to compete with Erina. He just let everyone do what they want while keeping Tootsuki as competitive as ever.
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Old 2019-06-08, 09:10   Link #19338
GendoAizenPig
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Since we're quoting the early chapters now, I think the fact that Erina says that simply attending Totsuki adds prestige to your cooking career only bolsters my point. All the parents would've been stupid to pass up the chance for their kids to go there even if they ended up flunking out. There was really no downside on the deal in the way it was presented. The true goal however as I've stated Ad nauseam had much more serious implications, even if due to poor writing they never materialized. They were brought as challengers to Erina, and she was known to ruin careers. She was the only person in the series with the ability to do that based on her word that I remember. It's not like all the restaurants they came from were doing badly or anything. Just the fact that she could end them changes everything. Suddenly an opportunity with little to no risk becomes a big risk. The cooking community was terrified of Erina, so I find it doubtful all of the parents would've accepted if they had known their kids were meant to be her direct competitors.
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Old 2019-06-08, 09:17   Link #19339
Tyrant Ruler
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The issue here it's not the fact that the school is competitive we all know that. Some people are saying senzaemon didn't do anything that he didn't set up anything which is not true he set up the jewels generation fully knowing that they actually make the rest of the road . The point is he still participate and manipulate things to go this way cause he knew it was going this way.
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Old 2019-06-08, 10:11   Link #19340
Endscape
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Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
It's your opinion that it wasn't underhanded. I don't agree. So i'm dropping it. I can't argue with an opinion.
What I said was that it is barely underhanded. It's like stealing stationary from your office. Yeah, it's wrong but not to the point where I'm going to condemn someone for it.

Quote:
The whole reason of the school is to become accomplished chefs. Shokugeki matches were like a special event that a lot of students didn't participate in.
The whole point of the school is to use super competition to make accomplished chefs. Even without the Shokugeki, the school still had events like the Training Camp that forced students to compete.

Quote:
Erina is a prodigy with a super powered tongue so she didn't really need any help, but it's doubtful she didn't have advantages on top of that just for being a Nakiri. I mean she was judging other student admissions when series started so she was never on the rest of her class's level.
There is no proof that she received any unfair help on account of was being the principals granddaughter.

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Joichirou could've phone Senzaemon to help him? I mean he made Hayama a citizen after all. Probably could've even enrolled him at Totsuki too. He had options.
It's possible, I guess, but he probably figured he wouldn't have helped.

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Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig View Post
Since we're quoting the early chapters now, I think the fact that Erina says that simply attending Totsuki adds prestige to your cooking career only bolsters my point. All the parents would've been stupid to pass up the chance for their kids to go there even if they ended up flunking out. There was really no downside on the deal in the way it was presented. The true goal however as I've stated Ad nauseam had much more serious implications, even if due to poor writing they never materialized. They were brought as challengers to Erina, and she was known to ruin careers. She was the only person in the series with the ability to do that based on her word that I remember. It's not like all the restaurants they came from were doing badly or anything. Just the fact that she could end them changes everything. Suddenly an opportunity with little to no risk becomes a big risk. The cooking community was terrified of Erina, so I find it doubtful all of the parents would've accepted if they had known their kids were meant to be her direct competitors.
Senzaemon didn't force anyone to compete with Erina. If he had you would have had a point, but he didn't. He simply hoped that the normal way the school worked would end up helping Erina.

All the parents knew going on that there was a chance their kid would end up competing with Erina. As long as Senzaemon didn't force them to, he did nothing out of bounds.
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