2013-12-08, 16:31 | Link #1221 |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I think how anyone interprets that final bit will largely depend on whether that person believes Homura's motivations to be selfless or selfish in origin.
If it's the former, you have an otherwise well-meaning Homura misinterpreting Madoka's wishes, tainting herself and rewriting the world in the process. It's tragic, and possibly more consistent, but there's nothing new going on there. The latter, on the other hand, has Homura coming to a decision to pursue her own happiness against the will of of the system, without Madoka shouldering the burden. This, I see as a moment of genuine character growth on the part of Homura, even if it could have been executed better. Spoiler for my speculation on the ending:
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Last edited by Qilin; 2013-12-08 at 16:47. |
2013-12-08, 17:04 | Link #1222 | ||||||||
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But it's not, because Sayaka's regret was a result of her previous actions, and it did get in the way of her mission here. So going by your definition, they're not free from karma at all. Quote:
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You could argue that Madoka didn't have a choice, but really, how much of choice Homura had. If she didn't do anything and just left Madoka take her away, QB would eventually find a away to screw the Law of Cycles for good. That's too much of a risk. Quote:
Heck, if you think about it, Madoka had that power thanks to Homura's time travels, so in a way Homura does have a right to take her power away.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2013-12-08 at 17:34. |
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2013-12-08, 19:09 | Link #1223 | |||||||||
The True Culprit
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A person. Quote:
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But it's still immoral, and you have full reason to be pissed off if you find out. I robbed you of your ability to make choices for yourself. Atleast with the Witch thing, people didn't really HAVE a choice besides suicide. And Homura doesn't have the right to Madoka's powers. If I give you a gift, I don't have the right to take it back later. It stopped being my property as soon as it became yours.
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2013-12-08, 19:50 | Link #1224 | ||||||||
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The audience?
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2013-12-08, 19:56 | Link #1225 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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Congratulations, you just described a good number of heroes, both western (see: X-Men, Spider-man, during their original production) and shounen. They sacrifice, or potentially sacrifice, themselves to save the city/world, though obviously their loved ones wouldn't want to lose them.
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2013-12-08, 20:02 | Link #1226 | |
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2013-12-08, 20:06 | Link #1227 | ||
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I can argue that once Madoka died of arguably natural causes, Homura's job is done. The notion that a person's responsibility extends beyond death is a little unrealistic, don't you think? For example, if it is the parents' responsibility to care for their child, and that child will always be their child even when they grow into an adult, does that mean that all parents are failures because either they or their child will die eventually, making it impossible to care for their child forever? Quote:
There is no "unfulfilled wish" that needs to be accounted for in order for Homura to have the power to do what she did in the movie. The idea that a magical girl's powers can evolve after they have already formed their contract is not something that was established in the original TV series. |
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2013-12-08, 20:11 | Link #1228 | |
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But I think all of that is a bit much to ignore. That said, I never really wanted a sunshine and rainbows ending in the first place. I've said it before, that I think that the TV-series ending was really about as happy an ending as this story could reasonably have without it seeming like a cop-out.
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2013-12-08, 20:46 | Link #1229 | ||||||||||
The True Culprit
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Especially since minors can get emancipated in Japan. Quote:
What if Madoka became a firefighter or something, and Homura forced her to quit through brute force? Quote:
And screw Kyubey. Quote:
And if your hypothetical God example is the case? Yes, that's immoral. That no one is around to judge him for it doesn't change it. Crimes are still crimes even if you don't get caught. Quote:
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2013-12-08, 21:40 | Link #1230 | |||||||||
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Well, the analogy isn't perfect, but I think I made myself clear enough. Quote:
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2013-12-08, 21:51 | Link #1231 | |
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I think Homura is a very severe or even extreme case of "harsh outside; soft inside." This is shown consistently to be the case in the TV series. In EP4, Madoka almost begged Homura to watch over Sayaka. Homura flatly rejected this. Even knowing that Sayaka was as good as dead, Homura proceeded to do exactly as Madoka asked, and saved or tried to save Sayaka in EP5 (alley), EP6 (asked Kyoko to leave Sayaka alone, stopped Kyoko from dueling Sayaka and retreived Sayaka's soul gem), and EP8 (gave her a grief seed). She once harshly threatened Madoka at the beginning of EP6 that she would consider "other options" (implied to be violent ones) to make the fool (Madoka) listen. Homura didn't act on the threat at all and basically continued to do what she had always been doing. What happened when Madoka acted against Homura's EP1 advice again and tried to contract in EP8? That would be Homura's chance to carry out her threat. Turns out her "other options" consisted of breaking down in front of Modoka in tears and begging her to stop being so self-sacrificing. In the EP11 hug scene, Humura was all "I could do this alone" on the outside but inside she was really thinking "I beg you to let me protect you." So I think Homura acting all creepy on the outside is entirely within her character. One needs to observe what she does, not what she says. The "bad" things she did were wasting Kyoko's apple and breaking a tea cup behind Mami (Homura's own tea cup, not even Mami's). Homura has universe re-writing powers, but only did petty mischief on screen. Imagine someone who is powerful enough to restructure the universe, claims herself to be the devil, then shows how evil she is by j-walking. Also notice that Homura was basically the only person who called herself the devil. The other person, Sayaka, who used the same term, only repeated what Homura herself said. Homura did rewrite Sayaka's memories, but she only did so after Sayaka appeared to summon Oktavia. The alternative would probably be a fight right there. The Homura/Sayaka relationship is probably the worst among the 5 girls. What did Homura do when she rewrote Sayaka's memories? Made her happy enough to say "I am happy" onscreen. Last edited by Monoriu; 2013-12-08 at 23:22. |
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2013-12-08, 21:56 | Link #1232 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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If this is the best you can do, you shouldn't state things as absolutes. Quote:
But if my kid's making the knowing, informed decision to become a pansdimensional bodhisattva in order to alleviate the suffering of Man throughout all time and space for eternity, well....damn I am the best parent. Go get'm, kid. Quote:
Though if Homura circumvented the problem entirely the way you posited in your speculation, she could've, like...ASKED? "Hey Madoka I found a better answer. Whaddya say?" Even if Homura is otherwise justified, her going around Madoka without her consent and stepping on her decisions is disrespectful. Quote:
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2013-12-08, 21:59 | Link #1233 | ||
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Homura wanted to protect Madoka from her death, and that's exactly what she did. Again, there is no unfulfilled wish or contract. There is an unfulfilled desire that she did not put into the form of a wish, which is a different matter entirely. |
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2013-12-08, 23:00 | Link #1234 | |
Battoru!
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2013-12-09, 00:20 | Link #1235 |
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I consider that part of the "general unsettlingness". Now let me clarify, I don't think this ending is all sunshine and rainbows, I'm just saying that at a surface-level it looks like one. But when one actually looks at the details it's clearly anything but. I mean, when I first saw the movie I was just stuck in a state of numbed shock/horror for hours afterwards.
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2013-12-09, 01:31 | Link #1236 | |
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2013-12-09, 02:05 | Link #1237 |
Boo, you whore
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Went to the Denver showing at 7:30. All I can say is, welcome to mindfuck. Also, Homura is on my list of favorite characters now thanks to dark Homura. Still cannot beat Kyoko though. Had a beer and a burger, theater played Nanoha trailers before the movie started. Awesome night.
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2013-12-09, 02:25 | Link #1238 | |
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It's just a sample of one, but I still think it highlights that we shouldn't be too quick to just say "oh yeah Japan loves it". Of course there's also the point that the question was whether people thought it was a happy ending or a tragic one. That's not quite the same as asking if people liked it or found it satisfying. Though the idea of the story ending here boggles my mind, with how unstable Homura's world seems to be. Happy nor tragic, I don't want to call it an ending to the story at all. Empire Strikes Back isn't satisfying without a Return of the Jedi to follow. Questions for discussion: Is Homura happy now? Is she satisfied? Can she sustain herself emotionally... forever? |
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2013-12-09, 02:54 | Link #1239 | |||
The True Culprit
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Run a program with no defined termination trigger, and it will run indefinitely, forever and ever. Quote:
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2013-12-09, 03:13 | Link #1240 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
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So I watched the movie several hours ago, and I was wondering:
Where did we get the conclusion that the Law of Cycles isn't in effect anymore after Homura becomes Akuma Homura? I'm pretty sure Homura didn't kidnap Madoka entirely from her job. The film was pretty explicit in saying Homura stole only a piece of Madoka (thus splitting Madokami). And seeing that Homura said that she still needs QB to take care of wraiths, I think it's pretty safe to assume that witches are still be prevented from forming = law of cycles is in effect = Madokami (or at least part of her) is still saving magical girls before they become witches. -------- I kind of saw Madokami as someone who represents LAW and RULES. (If I recall, she mentions something about being uncomfortable breaking rules?) She doesn't discriminate, and subjects her friends, her family, and herself to the same rules as everyone else. Hence, in her universe, for example, Sayaka can't live out the happy life she could have, etc, etc. Homukami, on the other hand, represents the BREAKING of rules. It's kind of the bad-girl type of thing to do, which is why I think she placed the Akuma trope over herself. IMO, I don't think Homura necessarily became evil. It's more like, because of her love for the people she cares about, she's going to break the rules, and she doesn't care even if she's portrayed as the bad guy (or if it makes the present Madoka upset). Hence, when she rewrites the world, she explicitly makes it a world where her friends can be happy, Sayaka and Charlotte are alive, etc. It's kind of a selfish-type action where she's fully willing to discriminate and pull cards so that the world she wants will play out the way she wants to. That's the kind of power that I see Homukami having. The flower scene really did it for me. Homura never realized (and I think none of us realized) that Madoka might not have been as happy as she seemed to be in her kami state. For the once-gone characters, Rebellion was like: "Although I said I didn't have any regrets in the TV anime, I actually regretted this..." (Bebe regretted cheese.... |D). IMO, Homura went Akuma to give Madoka, Sayaka, etc. a chance to re-live the lives they lost and fulfill any lost regrets. Kind of like Angel Beats. Of course, we find out later that Madokami doesn't approve (b/c she's a god, darnnit), but honestly, I think anyone who really really loved Madoka would have done the same. Madoka might have her urges to do her altruistic and godly-things, but it's so....... lonely in her kami-state and she sacrificed so much. Even if she might not want it, I think it's Homura did the correct love-centric thing to give Madoka one more shot at re-living her life. It's soooo angel beats in that way. siighhhh, I really enjoyed it..... |
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