Ever17 -The Out of Infinity-

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by 4as

Spoiler for major spoilers:

Otherwise they of course would say "we want to capture anyone alive and make sure you wont say anything about what you saw"
Wasnt that the same submarine ? I vaguely remember that it had two courses; in first one Takeshi and Tsugumi put You, Kid and Coco's Father. And when the sub returned for the second time, Tsugumi and Takeshin went into it...
Anyway, the whole point still is, Leiblich had no reason to go back to IBF and they made sure no one would go near it.

Spoiler for Ending:

It would have been better to let them die rather than retrieve them. That's a certainly a more efficient way to keep someone silent. Don't forget that Yubiseiharukana attended school regularly after the event, she wasn't really a prisoner like her father. At max she was put under the same surveillance Hokuto has been under.

As for the submarines there were definitely two of them. Takeshi calls the big one "the bus" and the little one "the taxi". "The bus" went down to retrieve them but they only found the researcher, You and the kid. Since their condition were grave they decided to bring them on the surface without waiting for Takeshi. Then when takeshi went back he contacted them on the radio. They said that they only found three people, Takeshi misunderstood them thinking they retrievied Coco, You and the Kid. Then they asked about the other three people but Takeshi told them only two made it. They misunderstood him thinking he was talking about a real person, probably later they thought he was talking about Coco. Anyway at this point they told him to use the remote control for the little submarine because they said they wouldn't make it in time to get them before the implosion. I can provide some screenshots if you don't believe me.

As for the last point, I repeat that they had all the reason to retrieve a perfectly functional facility that cost them billion of yens. Rather they had no reason to leave as it is, without touching it. If the "cover up" is your theory, then they should have made it implode or seal it. They didn't do anything like that. Any diver could get inside it without problem in the meantime.

[izmosmolnar]

I don't remember the exact reasons by now, but even though I might be more of a nitpicking person than you, I still thought everything was answered in the end. Of course it's possible I wasn't bothered to question things, because the game pretty much redefined the word "mindf*cked" for me entirely.

[4as]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Ending:

It would have been better to let them die rather than retrieve them. That's a certainly a more efficient way to keep someone silent. [...]

Spoiler for major spoilers for the whole game:

And they did let them die - they didnt went to IBF to rescue those scientists. After those 7 days, survivors were seen just as samples. Sara also was hold by Leiblich but she still attend the Kyumeikan Women's High School - Sara, Hokuto, You'haru' and Kaburaki were all prisoners of Leiblich.
Look, this can go on for ever, I will explain you why retrieving IBF was out of the question:
IBF become a death trap. Tief Blau killed people in controlled environment and even with possible cure development they didnt stand a chance - do people from outside would had better chances? NO.
Retrieving IBF as a whole would require a massive operation and with that attract attention. Furthermore, that would unleash TB on the whole world making Leiblich a mass killer.
Retrieving + IBF = impossible, please understand that.
Now, next logical step is to keep people out of there, but having guards in place that holds no significant meaning yet again would attract attention, so they rebuild Lemu. Having a place that earns money and gives you a reason to be there isnt really a bad option.
Why they did go down to IBF to retrieve You and others? Maybe they werent fully aware of the situation? IMO, it is quite possible that they were just ordered to keep trying to communicate with IBF and capture any survivors, while not being informed what actually happened there. Whatever it was, it is really just a minor detail.
You can either go with the cover up theory and have only one question "why did they rescue You and Kid" or deny it all together and ask yourself "why didnt they retrive IBF?", "why did they rebuild Lemu?" and so on. Im sorry, but for me "cover up" ties everything together in logical manner.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for ending:

I would like to remind you that

Nothing has ever been said about You'haru being captured
Nothings has ever been said that the rescue them was actually Leiblich in disguise.

These are your speculations and I can't say they are true for many several reasons.

Retrieving IBF as a whole would require a massive operation and with that attract attention. Furthermore, that would unleash TB on the whole world making Leiblich a mass killer.

This is simply ridiculous. TB spread in the world already, why would they have any problem at that point? And they planned to sell TB, of course they certainly didn't think the buyer wouldn't use it. The rescue team you say were sent from Leiblich entered inside IBF, this is a fact.
What kind of massive operation are you talking about? After rebuilding LeMU they only had to reconstruct the shaft and the elevator to IBF! Is that costly? Then about the virus inside obviously they have a mean to sterilize it if they went inside it already. As trong as TB is i've never heard of a virus that can resist without human hosts for 17 years. There's not even a reason to discuss it. It's been clearly stated that TB is a virus that kills the hosts very quickly and for that very reason after a while it basically killed itself because it can't survive without human hosts. That is why after five years it was considered defeated.
The fact that you think a place exposed to a virus becomes permanently compromised is laughable. I've never heard of virus that can resist normal means of sterilization. Even in the hardest cases (bacteria usually) the radiation sterilization destroys any kind of microorganism without fail (please read that paragraph before answering insisting that there was no way to sterilize IBF).

I wonder if you seriously lack common sense or you are just trying to "win" this discussion no matter how illogical your arguments are.

[4as]

Spoiler for major spoilers:

Many things were unexplained in the game, because the makers assumed players are intelligent enough to fill the blanks by them self - an assumption that obviously was missed in your case.
What do you want to hear? That Leiblich didnt rebuild Lemu? That they retrieved TB from IBF?
Tief Bleu dieing out after 5 years is yet another good reason to ditch the place, which they did. Why Leiblich decided to not retrieve the virus? I dont know. Sudden change of heart? Maybe there were other factors affecting this decision we are not aware of? I dont care. The fact is that they didnt go near IBF and that they rebuild the Lemu - only logical conclusion I can draw from that is that the Leiblich tried to cover things up.
You would go and retrieve the virus? Lovely. They didnt. Different people have different train of thought. Like you for example, a single person in the whole thread that cant comprehend that simple conclusion.
And THAT is laughable. Is the simple equation of 1+x=2 too hard for you? Connect the freaking dots yourself.

Also, Leiblich wasnt aware that the TB escaped – it manifested it self after 2 years (1 year after the Lumu was rebuild)

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for ending:

Why Leiblich decided to not retrieve the virus? I dont know. Sudden change of heart? Maybe there were other factors affecting this decision we are not aware of? I dont care.

I think the part in bold pretty much resume your position: You don't know, you don't care.

Well I'm not going to try to change your mind. I just hope it's been clarified that the part I recognize as plot holes aren't exactly explained, and you (I mean "you" not a "general you") need to make some speculations to find an answer. Obviously you think that your speculations are perfectly logical, unfortunately I do not. I also have no reason to trust your judgment because you made several claims already that completely contradict what is clearly stated in the novel. I'm not saying you are to blame for this, three years from now I'll probably remember even less than you do now, however that doesn't change the fact that you are an unreliable source of informations.

Please accept that the flaws I see in this story are part of my personal opinion. Unless you have solid proof to counter my critique there's no point in continuing this discussion. As well as there's no point in discussing about the music being good or mediocre.

[4as]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for ending:

I think the part in bold pretty much resume your position: You don't know, you don't care.

Spoiler for major spoilers:

Oh, I was hoping you would quote me on this one.
I dont know, but I assume. It wouldnt be a first story about a big company trying to cover up there mistakes. The fact is you also dont know much, but hey, theres an explanation that ties everything together and you dont care - you said it is a plothole, so it obviously has to be a plothole. BAM, FACT.
Maybe it is just me, but I can not imaging someone writing such an epic story and not thinking up a reason to rebuild LeMU. Is a cover up really such an obscure explanation?

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Ending:

I think i have already explained it. In my vocabulary "cover up" implies destroying any proof, or sealing locations that could be compromised. Nothing of the sort has been done. Just to make an example in Higurashi to "cover up" any evidence they covered a whole wide area with concrete.
IBF was so easily accessible that even a 16 years old guy could enter inside it without any diving equipment.
The "explanation that ties everything together" imho doesn't really explain anything, i'm not going to repeat myself further.

you said it is a plothole, so it obviously has to be a plothole. BAM, FACT.

You know it's funny how you distorce the truth. I wonder... when someone is entitled to talk about plot holes? It's certainly not because I say so out of the blue. I say it because I have reasons to say it. I explained those reasons. And I can't accept "Ever17 is a wonderful game so it must be perfect" as a valid argument.

It is as if I see an elephant inside a room and you insist there isn't any elephant and as an argument you tell me: "you said there's an elephant, so it obviously has to be an elephant, BAM, FACT."

I say there's an elephant if I see an elephant, I say there's a plot hole if I see a plot hole.

[Rayneing]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Ending:

I think i have already explained it. In my vocabulary "cover up" implies destroying any proof, or sealing locations that could be compromised. Nothing of the sort has been done. Just to make an example in Higurashi to "cover up" any evidence they covered a whole wide area with concrete.
IBF was so easily accessible that even a 16 years old guy could enter inside it without any diving equipment.

Spoiler for end game spoilers:

One: IBF was located under a LOT of water pressure. It is not easily accessible unless you have the proper equipment. I'm not sure just diving equipment would be enough, since they made a point of how far down it was. That's why they ended up taking the submarines in the end.

Two: Hokuto could swim down there because he has superhuman levels of endurance, a point which was repeatedly made, most likely as a result of Cure. A normal human being would not be able to get down there.

Three: As a result of the implosion of LeMU, I imagine they thought their job was done for them. I haven't read Ever17 in a while, so I can't remember if they got into the specifics on this or not.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Rayneing

Spoiler for end game spoilers:

One: IBF was located under a LOT of water pressure. It is not easily accessible unless you have the proper equipment. I'm not sure just diving equipment would be enough, since they made a point of how far down it was. That's why they ended up taking the submarines in the end.

Two: Hokuto could swim down there because he has superhuman levels of endurance, a point which was repeatedly made, most likely as a result of Cure. A normal human being would not be able to get down there.

Three: As a result of the implosion of LeMU, I imagine they thought their job was done for them. I haven't read Ever17 in a while, so I can't remember if they got into the specifics on this or not.

Spoiler for ending:

Another guy that makes baseless assumptions...

one: IBF was under 350 feet or so under the level of the sea. It's around 110 meters. Now just take a look at the records of "free divings" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_diving
Now imagine it with proper equipments or, why not, with a little submarine.
It appears that a man with proper equipment can go as far as 1752 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_diving
Certainly this is a record, but if this is possible 1/5 of that shouldn't be unthinkable.

two: You didn't do your homework. It's been expressively said in the game. Hokuto not only isn't affected by cure he is immune to it. The only thing he has received from his mother is the ability to see in the dark. Should I make a screenshot to convince you?

three: here the point is if they noticed IBF didn't implode or not. Frankly I think the possibility that they didn't notice would make more sense than the idea they noticed but they didn't care. However so far 4as has been insisting for the second option.

[Rayneing]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for ending:

Another guy that makes baseless assumptions...

one: IBF was under 350 feet or so under the level of the sea. It's around 110 meters. Now just take a look at the records of "free divings" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_diving
Now imagine it with proper equipments or, why not, with a little submarine.
It appears that a man with proper equipment can go as far as 1752 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_diving
Certainly this is a record, but if this is possible 1/5 of that shouldn't be unthinkable.

two: You didn't do your homework. It's been expressively said in the game. Hokuto not only isn't affected by cure he is immune to it. The only thing he has received from his mother is the ability to see in the dark. Should I make a screenshot to convince you?

three: here the point is if they noticed IBF didn't implode or not. Frankly I think the possibility that they didn't notice would make more sense than the idea they noticed but they didn't care. However so far 4as has been insisting for the second option.

Spoiler for end game:

Ugh. I really didn't want to get into an argument.

One: I guess I will concede to this point. I don't remember any hard numbers of how deep IBF was, I just remember the characters talking about how difficult it would be for them to swim it back to surface even in LeMU. I accept with the proper equipment, you can make it down to IBF. Though, you would first need the idea to dive down there for whatever reason, and I imagine it was closed off due to the reconstruction of LeMU.

Two: Reread several scenes. Especially when Tsugumi is relating the pasts of Hokuto and Sara back to them. It is made extremely clear that he has an unnatural level of endurance, even as a young child (just like his sister was unnaturally intelligent). And I said, 'most likely as a result of Cure', that was just my own speculation as to where it came from. It is never confirmed where it came from, but it is definitely there.

Three: Um, what? Could you, like, reword that?

Also, I did say it had been a while since I read Ever17. And I imagine a lot of this is probably better explained in the first game, Never7, which took place during the time Tief Blau was rampant. Maybe they expected people to have read that first and that is why so many details are left like that? Although, for all I know, Leiblich could go completely unmentioned.

Yet another reason the rest of the series needs to be translated!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Rayneing

Spoiler for end game:

Ugh. I really didn't want to get into an argument.

One: I guess I will concede to this point. I don't remember any hard numbers of how deep IBF was, I just remember the characters talking about how difficult it would be for them to swim it back to surface even in LeMU. I accept with the proper equipment, you can make it down to IBF. Though, you would first need the idea to dive down there for whatever reason, and I imagine it was closed off due to the reconstruction of LeMU.

Two: Reread several scenes. Especially when Tsugumi is relating the pasts of Hokuto and Sara back to them. It is made extremely clear that he has an unnatural level of endurance, even as a young child (just like his sister was unnaturally intelligent). And I said, 'most likely as a result of Cure', that was just my own speculation as to where it came from. It is never confirmed where it came from, but it is definitely there.

Three: Um, what? Could you, like, reword that?

Also, I did say it had been a while since I read Ever17. And I imagine a lot of this is probably better explained in the first game, Never7, which took place during the time Tief Blau was rampant. Maybe they expected people to have read that first and that is why so many details are left like that? Although, for all I know, Leiblich could go completely unmentioned.

Yet another reason the rest of the series needs to be translated!

Spoiler for ending:

one: I can concede the fact that it was unlikely that someone would go down IBF without knowing its existence. However since it was the site of an incident the possibility couldn't be completely overrule. It was careless for them to do nothing about that. Just shutting down the entrance would suffice, as a precaution.

two: You are right on the point that Hokuto had exceptional physical abilities, being a hybrid between a cure and a human he does have some qualities. This explain how he made it down there without dying, in fact i'm not really complaining about this point. However he was not immortal nor he has the recovery ability of his mother. Anyway the point is that IBF isn't really that deep. I mean a human technically can go down there without dying, but only provided he is a pro. Hokuto isn't a pro but he is stronger beyond average so it can be explain with that.

three: let's put it like this:

Hypothesis one: Leiblich didn't notice that IBF didn't implode with LeMU. So basically they didn't try to retrieve it nor they tried to shut it, because they thought it was destroyed.

Hypothesis two: Leiblich did notice that IBF didn't implode and was still operational. However they didn't care about it. For some reasons they didn't want to retrieve the costly equipment inside it. They didn't want to retrieve important data they could find inside it, nor they wanted to close the place, seal it or destroy in order to prevent important information to leak. They just decided to ignore it.

Hypothesis one requires me to think that Leiblich was completly clueless.
Hypothesis two requires me to think the higher ups at Leiblich are completely retard and incompetent.

If I can express my personal opinion I find the number one easier to accept than number two. Still kinda lame but not as much as number two.

I didn't know about never7 being connected with ever17. I wonder if they really explained something about this issue there.

[4as]

You know what? I've had enough.
Read the explaination for yourself ("Other topics" - > 4 paragraph):
http://www.kgptzac.info/ever17/index.html
Next time, do a research on your own.

[Jan-Poo]

I see they basically say the same thing as you say, (rumored to be explained on remember 11. Rumored? I suppose it's no official information). There is still a lack of answer to my question: if they wanted to seal it, why they didn't actually seal it?

Anyway I agree on one thing you said: I've had enough. And if you expect someone to read 39 pages before making a question then you might as well consider this topic dead.

[meh]

I finished reading Remember 11 recently. And I don't remember ANY information regarding the rebuilding of LeMU. It wouldn't even make sense to be in the game, because the game itself takes place between 2011 and 2012. There was nothing which suggests any connection to the people and event in Ever 17. Perhaps the explanation comes from some official release of the game?

To be honest, I don't really see anything more than very vague connections between Ever 17, Remember 11, and Never 7(have not read 12 Riven). Maybe Kid released some information on previous games through other manners. But certainly nothing within these games themselves.

[Seitsuki]

These games are set in the same universe with common factors but have no direct connections to each other. sortta like tsukhime and Fate.

[learninganime]

Just finished Ever17! all 11 endings. Had some questions though:

Spoiler for Ever17:

1) How did Hokuto get out of the pool after jumping in( at the beginning of the game) Did You or Kaburaki jump in to save him?

2) Why did Tsugumi wear the Lemur costume (in either time)? Was she hiding from Leiblich? Or protecting herself from the sun?

And why in both times does she trick Kid (Hokuto or Kaburaki) into wearing the costume?

Thanks.

[fourtwenty]

Hey guys, I just reinstalled my copy of ever 17 on my new computer and forgot that the patch for the voices was taken off Hirameki's site. Is there anywhere to find it? If not is the game playable without it? (I like voices)

Thanks ^^

[Seitsuki]

did the original not have voices?
try to find a patch on torrent sites, and if nothing comes up you could always try to reverse-engineer the process of adding voices. Tho I don't know anyone whos done it (who'd take OUT voices?)

Spoiler for @ learninganime:

1- That was a scene from the Coco route. Play through it again if you forgot :P I'll just say that the idea of time is rather messed up
2- Yeah her skin is very sensitive to sunlight, as a result of her Cure condition. She escaped when she was a kid so it's unlikely Leiblich knows what she looks like (although it does serve that function as well)
3- The first time was probably just for the lulz (worded VERY badly) The second time was probably because no matter how much she acted like she was pissed at the whole repeating incident thing she hoped that whatever was being attempted would change what happened and played (sortta) her part

[learninganime]

Originally Posted by fourtwenty

Hey guys, I just reinstalled my copy of ever 17 on my new computer and forgot that the patch for the voices was taken off Hirameki's site. Is there anywhere to find it? If not is the game playable without it? (I like voices)

Thanks ^^

I had the same problem. I scoured this thread, and got a link to the file on megaupload thanks to rg4619...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C4IZC2KJ