2013-04-14, 23:38 | Link #61 | ||
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But I don't think trying to force anime to fit into some other culture's existing definition of "mainstream" is going to be a net benefit either. I would also say that I don't believe that there's necessarily as much room in the mainstream market for anime as they can buy in late-night ad blocks, nor that the different demographics are "trade-able" (as if doing less anime for one demographic automatically means limited queue space is automatically available now for another demographic). As I've said in this conversation in other threads before, the key issue is the economics/business plan. Quote:
But, by the same token, even with "universal appeal", creating a piece of entertainment that is enjoyed widely the world over is pretty hard. Hollywood has gotten pretty good at it, but they've been a major and influential cultural exporter for decades now. It's still hard for "foreign film" to get a voice, even if it's culturally acclaimed and well-regarded by those in the know. You're competing with a well-oiled marketing machine with profound cultural influence over decades of imprinting (and lots of entrenched interests that want to stay in control). It's not impossible, nor necessarily not a worthy concept... but I think it's a very tough road to travel. It would require an awful lot of investment, and I'm just not sure that it'll pay-off. But then again, if there's a business there, I'm sure someone will figure it out eventually.
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2013-04-14, 23:39 | Link #62 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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And mainstream for whom? Because Ghibli is as mainstream as you can get, as far as Japanese audiences are concerned. And Ghibli movies are comparable to those of Disney, which, to me, are as mainstream as Western animation gets. Both enjoy broad appeal, and not just in their home countries. The common trait they share? An emphasis on universal themes, which, unsurprisingly, could be considered bland and not innovative by some. Quote:
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2013-04-14, 23:55 | Link #63 | |
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So I guess all that to say, though the "broad appeal" may be the same (and you could do one of those "if you liked <x> you'd also like <y>" things and almost certainly be right), the demand and market reach is not equal. If you're going to aim for a market, they have to be there to support you. I think it's not just creating great works with universal themes that does it (though obviously that is essential too).
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-04-15 at 01:02. Reason: fix typo... |
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2013-04-15, 00:36 | Link #64 |
Boo, you whore
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Well, lets ask ourselves this question; when has foreign media ever became mainstream here in America?
British music...uhhh...maybe. That's from a culture that is very similar to ours. And...that's about it. I guess Naruto or Dragonball Z is the closest thing we have to mainstream anime, even if most people don't watch it...they at least have heard of it. Ghibli films can be accepted by the mainstream if the mainstream knew what the heck they were. GITS and Cowboy Bebop are about as mainstream as Aqua Teen Hunger Force and almost everything else on Adult Swim; it's still niche, and it will most likely remain niche. And let's not get started on stuff that is "mainstream in otakuland", stuff like Puella Magi Madoka Magica, The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha...oh whatever, why not throw in Queen's Blade as well, after all QB merch is everywhere at cons...don't get me wrong, I love those shows and for good reason (except QB which I watch for moronic fanservice), but...come on. You're really gonna tell me that those shows would be accepted by the mainstream? I have a bridge to sell you.
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2013-04-15, 01:16 | Link #65 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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Foreign video game industry also finds a lot of love in the United States, as a lot of developers and even publishers aren't actually from the U.S. Paradox Interactive, Bohemia Interactive, CD Projekt Red, JRPGs, Sony, Squenix, Ubisoft, etc. It's not as if foreign entertainment doesn't reach the U.S. and become mainstream. Anime specifically is just more of a niche than those other mediums of entertainment. If we want to be really honest, you could blame that in part on the publishing industry in the U.S. Say what you will, but if you push and prod your target audience hard enough in all the right ways you can get them to like something. All you have to do is make it big enough to conquer the social stigmas of liking it. Right now anime pretty much subsists off of its audience trying to make it mainstream, and less off its industry trying to get people to buy into it. Though that in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Like all things, you take the good and you take the bad.
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2013-04-15, 01:20 | Link #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
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With certain exceptions, I think it's as big as it's gonna get here.
Everyone knows about the harsh S and P practices of TV and the cultural differences, but I think the biggest thing is that the new car smell has worn off. People generally know what it's about here, it's not as "hip" or "exotic" anymore. That and frankly, a sizable amount of anime has NO CHANCE of being mainstream in America. Hell most anime is niche cult entertainment AT BEST IN JAPAN. Remember, not everything is One Piece. |
2013-04-15, 01:31 | Link #67 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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"Mainstream" in terms of marketing reach? Or in terms of scale of production? Or in terms of content appeal? It seems to me that we haven't been very clear about how we define the label, and we have been using it in mixed ways. For example: Quote:
Also, somewhere along the way, we have taken "mainstream" to mean what is accepted by most people in the United States. I think the opening post has been edited, because I seem to recall it was longer and more detailed. In any case, there isn't any mention of a specific market in the opening post. So, while I don't know why America is taken to be synonymous with "the West", my interest in the discussion is more rooted in the common points of interest between Japan and "the West" where anime is concerned. It is from that perspective that I find more things in common than people give "mainstream" anime credit for. |
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2013-04-15, 01:40 | Link #68 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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Y'all remember Archer? Great show. So too is the Venture Bros. What do Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Archer, and The Venture Bros. have in common? Adult themes, and considerably larger audiences than the majority of their respective industries. I'm not saying that the U.S. likes more serious and adult anime that's high quality, with more serious and adult themes, fascinating settings and characters, and all the rest they have, but...
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2013-04-15, 01:45 | Link #69 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Anime for adults, shows like Usagi Drop, Planetes and Hataraki Man, deal with a variety of mature topics of interest to a broad range of people. None of them require boobs and bombs to elicit interest. So, why this assumption that Americans will go for nothing but blood, gore and grit? Does that accurately reflect the viewing interests of Americans in this forum? If it doesn't, what makes Americans here so different from other Americans? What makes Americans here, in this forum, so special? |
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2013-04-15, 01:52 | Link #70 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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We like other stuff too, but the mainstream audiences tend to favor that genre.
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2013-04-15, 01:54 | Link #71 | ||||
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Age: 41
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Also, I would say anecdotally that I don't know if anime has gotten a great deal more market acceptance in any other International market. Quote:
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2013-04-15, 02:03 | Link #72 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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But yes, you do have to pay attention to trends. We're sitting here having this discussion as if there's all kinds of factors within the show itself, and culturally, and otherwise. That's not to say they can cause a show to hit or miss, but meeting those criteria is easy on a case-by-case basis. At the end of the day, playing your cards right and proper marketing are really the way to get something to appeal to a large audience. Probably we wont see anime penetrate into the mainstream market any time in the foreseeable future simply because there's nobody willing to put out high quality material with effective marketing and good advertising. Even then all you would be doing is fixing that social stigma, while popularity would trend and fall as with any other genre.
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2013-04-15, 02:25 | Link #73 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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For whatever reason some people seem to see the decline of such anime in the west as somehow related to the rise of "moe" fandom with all the persecution and inter-fandom rivalry that brings too. Hence why many moe fans don't necessarily like the idea of having more "mainstream" fans around - and yes, I'm completely guilty of that one. And both sides tend to see the competition between them as some sort of zero sum game as well. Meanwhile, something like Pokemon which probably reached many, many more people goes pretty much unmentioned in such discussions despite probably being the "actual" mainstream. I was initially tempted to say that conceptualized this way, the popularity of "mainstream anime" has very little impact on me as I don't have a lot of contact with "causal" fans - then I remembered just how many of the people I know in the anime fandom started out as Pokemon fans. Heck, my girlfriend owns a DS pretty much exclusively for Pokemon games. Obviously, the barrier between what one might see as"causal" and "hardcore" anime is permeable despite what many seem to think.
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2013-04-15, 02:43 | Link #74 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Age: 49
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To me, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, a negative feedback loop. Creators think audiences want dumb entertainment, so only dumb shows get created. In other words, it's a chicken-and-egg problem. If such content weren't even created, it's hardly fair to lambaste audiences for their "poor taste". Now, if by mainstream we refer to anime that can reach a broader spectrum of adults, not just those with niche interests in the medium, I'd say, why not? Be it in Japan or in the West, I don't see why anime cannot address topics of interest to adult audiences. Stories that deal with real-life, day-to-day — or even existential — concerns. The question, really, is why aren't creators trying? I think we'll find that it's not really about how foreign markets function. It boils down ultimately to how the anime business model works in Japan, where anime is essentially advertisement for merchandise. But even then, you can see how Japanese creators try to take it beyond mere advertisement. After all, if the point of Gundam is just to sell toys, why bother investing as much they have on creating such an extensive back story for the Gundam universe? You will find, I strongly suspect, that the "suits" are not as mercenary as the public likes to think. Yes, there will be intense interest in the bottom line, but that's part of doing business. Anime has to help its stakeholders make money. But you'll find that even the most hardened executives will understand that if they don't have a good story, they won't make money either. Not in the long run, in any case. Which is to say that I don't buy the idea that "mainstream" anime won't sell in a market like America's. If the content has broad appeal, I feel it can work. So, perhaps marketing is indeed what's needed. That in turn means that you'll need entrepreneurs who feel that the potential gain is worth the risk. |
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2013-04-15, 02:47 | Link #75 | |||
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I know that some companies continued trying for a while to get TV space for "mature anime", but (as alluded to before) they're competing for space with all the other content out there, and finding that there's little room for anime these days (a bit more recently than there was for a while, at least). At least the Net provides a platform... but again, they're up against everything on Hulu, Youtube, and all the other Platforms out there, and the revenue is minuscule. Quote:
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I like the theory of the negative feedback loop, and your optimism that universal themes can sell. But I think this isn't a "content problem" because the content is already there. There isn't a lack of good movies and TV shows, particularly when you dig through the catalogue a bit. Creating even more like-content isn't necessarily going to open more doors yet. First someone has to prove that they can make it work with what they have, then more will follow down the path. (I know this does tie back to your point at the end about finding entrepreneurs who consider it worth the risk. But I still felt that somehow you were underselling the extent of the problem as I perceive it anyway. The media market is totally saturated with content as it is; cutting through, even with exceptional content, is hard.)
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2013-04-15, 03:33 | Link #76 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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By removing such barriers of entry, in terms of content and hardware, gaming became mainstream, and with it came all the attendant pros and cons. So, I suggest, remove the "otaku" complexities* from anime with which you want to reach a broader range of audience. At the same time, look into the ideal means of distributing the media, be it via streaming or pay-per-view download, or whatever other means of delivery. *EDIT: By the way, before anyone screams blue murder over this suggestion ("You see! That's what I warned you about going mainstream! No one's going to rob me of my moe anime! That's NEVAR going to happen. NEVARRR!!!"), I ask you to consider what I've suggested as "mainstream" content that would appeal to a broad range of adults, the likes of Usagi Drop, Hataraki Man or even Seirei no Moribito. I consider them mainstream, and none of them relied on cutesy anime tropes to be effective stories. I'm not asking for producers to stop making moe anime. I'm asking for creators to start targeting a wider audience with stories that have broader adult appeal. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2013-04-15 at 04:04. |
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2013-04-15, 17:51 | Link #77 | |
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Really, the key is who you're going to get to fund these "mainstream projects" and what's in it for them (and how much time and investment will it take before they start getting their money back). The second is, of course, how you're going to make money off of these viewers in a direct sense. From my point of view, the demand is too low, the cost to market is too high, and the ROI is far too uncertain at least for animated TV series designed to reach this "broader adult" demographic, because you still generally need to get them on TV and in a timeslot where that audience can watch it. If the concept is so good that it can appeal to a broad cross-section of people in that format, I'd really wonder if it wouldn't be better to make it live-action, at least to reach a broader domestic market. Animated movies are perhaps a bit more feasible (and there are animated movies released every year in Japan that can appeal to a "broader adult audience"), but when Disney can't make even the best Ghibli films work overseas, I'd really want a clearer understanding of what they're doing wrong. I think there will always be some shows that can also appeal to a broad cross-section (because "otaku" are people too, and universal themes also appeal to them, go figure), but specifically chasing after that elusive "broad adult market" that must be out there somewhere isn't where I'd place all my chips, anyway. I really can't believe in "if you build it, they will come."
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2013-04-15, 18:05 | Link #78 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Just going to throw a thought out there, but... Game of Thrones (Based on the acclaimed Song of Ice and Fire book series) is supposedly the most pirated television show of all time. I read something like 4 million people pirated the damn thing and another 4 million watch the show. I would say that counts as pretty main stream.
Yet Game of Thrones is extremely complex in setting, characterization, etc. Does it have violence and sex? Sure. But most of the show is just dialogue. So no, the US market isn't as dumb as some like to portray it as. There is room for these sorts of things, it just has to be well written and engaging.
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2013-04-15, 18:38 | Link #79 |
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This, to me, would constitute anime going mainstream:
1) It's part of "water cooler talk" at everyday workplaces. Co-workers can bring it up, and discuss it, without it seeming weird. At least, they can do this about the most popular of the recent titles. In my neck of the woods, this is true of pro sports, pro wrestling, video games, some American TV dramas, and movies in general. In fairness, it's also true of some older anime shows. 2) Stories of economic success for businesses heavily invested in anime can be found in the mainstream news. When anime is discussed seriously on CNN or BBC, and it's for commercial reasons, then that'll be a pretty good sign of anime being mainstream. I don't think anime would need to change radically to go mainstream, but it would have to change some. For those of you here who are familiar with comic book superheroes as I am, think of the changes that these characters and supporting casts go through when they get the Hollywood movie treatment. The sillier bits of Captain America's costume gets thrown out. Thor's helmet is gone. Superman's red trunks will be gone for the upcoming Man of Steel movie. Batman and his world becomes grittier and more realistic, while Batman himself is still a decent fighter and generally competent but no longer the "BatGod" of internet fame and infamy. If anime goes mainstream, I think you'll have more shows like Madoka Magica and Steins;Gate, only with the "sillier" (to general audiences) bits removed. So, for example, the fanservicey OP for Madoka Magica, and a lot of the otaku in-jokes in Steins;Gate. That goes the way of Thor's helmet and Superman's red trunks. But much of what otakus like could be maintained, just like most of what comic book superhero fans like is maintained. People in general are not necessarily opposed to cuteness, just as they're not necessarily opposed to flashy costumes. But there are limits, and going mainstream means those limits get enforced. I also think that if anime goes mainstream, you'll still have a decent number of shows geared towards hardcore audiences. It's just that these shows will basically be off the radar screen for more casual, new anime fans, if anime goes mainstream. That being said, I can understand why some are leery of the idea of anime going mainstream. I myself am truly sick and tired of the grimdark "everything is brown" approach of huge chunks of the modern video game, comic book, and TV drama sectors. This is a big part of the reason why I no longer collect comic books, or follow them regularly. If the price of anime going mainstream means the death of heartwarming, lighthearted, beautiful shows like Tari Tari, Hanasaku Iroha, Tamayura Hitotose, and Love Live!, then that's probably a price that I don't want to pay either. But like I wrote before, I don't think that's the price that has to be paid, based on my own observation on what changes when a comic book property goes from out of the comic book pages (and the actual comic book medium itself has been in sharp decline since the mid-90s) and onto the big movie screen (which is as mainstream as ever).
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2013-04-15, 19:34 | Link #80 | |
Cross Game - I need more
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 44
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Heck, it's based on Faust, the major source of the "deal with the devil" storyline in Western culture. (One of the most amusing things about watching Madoka as it happened was the difference in reactions of the Japanese and the American audiences. The Japanese kept trying to figure out how the Americans were correctly predicting all the plot twists). Plus, Magical Girls shows are also western in origin. No really- specifically Bewitched, which the Japanese cite as the inspiration for Magical Girl shows. Think also of She-Ra, the popularity of Sailor Moon, and more adult versions such as Xena the Warrior Princess. Are there several anime/otaku only references in Madoka? Of course, but they don't preclude Western mainstream fans any more than the geek insider elements of Star Trek prevent an appeal to a wider audience. Marketed right, a slightly edited Madoka could probably appeal to a large segment of Christians in the United States. Punch up the Christian elements (especially with Kyoko), make QB a symbolic devil, and you have the perfect show to appeal to an audience that is regularly marginalized by normal Hollywood fare, but has also repeatedly shown it's ability to drive a show to blockbuster status. It doesn't even require any significant changes to the plot. Granted, the other shows you mention probably could not be mainstreamed.
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