2010-06-13, 16:46 | Link #10981 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Except he didn't target Eva except in a fantasy scene. Eva was actually targeted by Erika for a different reason. If Georges goal was just to marry Shannon then I agree, there would be no reason. But what happened was that we got some kind of hint from a fantasy scene that he does kill family members. Ep3 and the one you mentioned ep6. Now the fantasy reason is probably the lie, so what remains is the possibility that his goal is not exactly as he's stated. |
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2010-06-13, 17:11 | Link #10982 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I think Erika proves that a non related culprit is possible too. A person who has no emotional ties to the Ushiromiya family would be able to kill them without any grief. Like Erika.
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2010-06-13, 17:13 | Link #10983 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Thanks to you, actually, I've decided to give the Pony Theory some thought, and... it works. It actually works. Ryukishi spent his last interview talking about a "key" that would "unlock" all the closed rooms, and... what if the Pony Theory is it? That is, that Beatrice is in fact a physical existence on the island separate from anyone else? What if BOTH Shkanon and Erika-Doesn't-Exist are true? That leaves a slot open for another person, doesn't it? Sure, it's the Mysterious Person X all over again, but now it's the Mysterious Person Beatrice, which at least has some precedent. Furthermore, it would explain something that's been bothering me for quite some time now. Assume Shkanon is true. Let's also assume that all the victims of Ep1's first twilight are, in fact, dead. How else do you explain the person Battler heard exit the boiler room during Ep1's fourth and fifth twilights? Mysterious Person Beatrice ties that up nicely. With the Pony Theory, also, we can take the challenge letters completely at FACE VALUE. We can take everything attributed to Beatrice at face value. The theory suddenly clears up things that we always assumed were mysteries. It's like the ultimate misdirection. |
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2010-06-13, 17:21 | Link #10984 |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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I believe this red. The sin is not between Battler and Beatrice Applies to both a Meta Beato and a Beato if there is one on the board.
And about Battler hearing someone. That doesn't mean anything... He was under complete stress and panic, he didn't want someone he knew to be the culpirt, so his brain subconsciously probably created this sound for him. If I remember right he is the only one who hears it. And I for one never liked this 'Person X' garabage, even if they are named Beatrice.. |
2010-06-13, 17:22 | Link #10985 | |||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Oh, by the way. Did you notice that the pilot of the airplane that flies the Ushiromiyas to Niijima in the morning is also one "Captain Kawabata"? Quote:
In short, every instance of "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo." supports the image of a Kinzo that you wouldn't put anything past -- but does not actually build it. Quote:
So we're mostly left with claiming that the witch is real and not wanting to see anyone. Well, these are hardly traits of a daring eccentric who can randomly wake up in the night and go for a walk by jumping out of the window. They're the traits of a disturbed and suffering man which actually make one less daring. The image of the super-Kinzo for whom nothing is unthinkable doesn't fit with this.
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2010-06-13, 17:23 | Link #10986 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The existence of a real Beatrice does fit with the scenario of both shkannon and ghosterika being true. And in that case Erikatrice would become the most logic assumption.
This option would also save 2 out of the 3 couples, instead of only 1 with classic shkannon theory. The only problem I see with this is that according the Zepar and Furfur, Beato, Shannon and Kanon are exactly in the same situation. We know that what Zepar and Furfur said is of extreme importance, so if the correct interpretation is the one supposed by shkannon theorists, then Beatrice should fit in that as well. If the fact that only one among the 3 couples can succeed is because shannon and kanon are the same person, so even Beatrice should be another personality of the same person. Else it should be possible for Beato to still crown her love dream regardless of Kanon or Shannon winning the test. @Oliver I do not relate with your definition of "eccentric". You seem to imply that eccentric can only be defined someone who does things not done by anyone else. That's not the common definition. Eccentric is whoever does things blatantly against the norm, which includes a very large group of people if we search through the whole world. Being fanatic of occultism is, for example, not exceptionally rare, but it is eccentric. By the way Oliver "being a fanatic of occultism" does not imply being a practitioner of occultism anymore than being a fanatic of movies involves being an actor or a director. Yet again I do not relate with your definitions.
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2010-06-13, 17:27 | Link #10987 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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2010-06-13, 17:31 | Link #10988 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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The idea that "Shannon is Beatrice and plans to bomb the family if Battler does not remember his sin or someone stops her, and Kanon is trying to stop this plan to get his sister back" explains this love duel equally well! Neither can live while the other survives, as neither will give in! |
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2010-06-13, 17:34 | Link #10989 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Hideyoshi is George's employer. This is Japan of 1986, where employment is still seen as 'for life' in most industries, and were Hideyoshi to oppose George's desire to marry Shannon, he can make him essentially unemployable by anyone else with one flick of a pen. George is completely at Hideyoshi's mercy in that and has precious little legal recourse against such treatment. Sure, he can fight his mother, he can tell the rest of the family to go die in a fire, but his father is the one person that has George in his power... While Hideyoshi and Eva are alive, that is. If they mysteriously die, George inherits Hideyoshi's company and this weakness vanishes. So either George has Hideyoshi's approval or he has to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi -- but everyone else's opinion doesn't matter at all.
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2010-06-13, 17:37 | Link #10990 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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No Shiro Kaisen, this doesn't work as well.
Shannon wants George Beatrice wants Battler Kanon wants Jessica There is no Shannon and Battler in the love test. Therefore you just need to get beatrice out of the picture to have both Shannon and Kanon happy. But that's not what happens, because at a certain point Beatrice loses by default, she's already out of the game, and yet Shannon and Kanon still need to fight. also your theory does not explain why Zepar and Furur claim that Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon are "less than human". and why the love test will make them "whole" so that they can be allowed to love.
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2010-06-13, 17:45 | Link #10991 | ||
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2010-06-13, 17:47 | Link #10993 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Beatrice is a personality created by Shannon and is in love with Battler. Shannon remains in love with George. However, unlike the bullcrap DID perpetuated by Shkanon fans, a personality cannot be "killed." So for Kanon to be happy, he must kill his sister. When Battler is out of the picture, when he is locked in his closed room, Beatrice is unable to fulfill her objective of causing Battler to remember his sin. She plans to set off the bomb instead. Kanon cannot let this happen, because he must save his lovely ojou-sama. Sayo has to try and eliminate this Beatrice personality somehow, and she assumes that since it is after Battler, she would have to eliminate Battler to get rid of it. |
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2010-06-13, 17:52 | Link #10994 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The weakness in looking at it from a narrative perspective is that you can pinpoint WHO nearly all the time, WHY some of the time, but almost never HOW, unless you've found a similar trick in another mystery you've read. Therefore I can put forth all I want that I think Beato is an entity of some sort with no firm ties to Shannon/Kanon/Jessica, but if I can't explain how the murders are committed or why, most people won't pay me much mind. Understandably. Because there are problems with it. But there are also major problems as put forth with the ShaKanonTrice theory that makes it even unlikely to me. Spoiler for ep6:
I think the only way I could accept the three of them being the same is if it was "Beato" playing at being both of them. Her not being a part of them, but them being a part of her.
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2010-06-13, 17:52 | Link #10995 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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2010-06-13, 17:59 | Link #10996 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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The root remains the same, though. Episode 6 makes it very clear that Beatrice was not a person and was created by someone. Beato's flashback as she realizes the truth of the game makes this very clear. Beatrice is the creation of somebody who is in love with Battler. It can't be Jessica, because Jessica already has "that blonde hair he likes." It can't be any of the moms, because that's silly. No one else would have been on the island both times. Process of elimination says "Shannon." And what do you mean, "no mention of Kanon being alive?" And I didn't say Sayo actually COULD kill Beato, just that she thought she could. There's a difference, a very key difference. If you had a personality in your head you realized was trying to bomb your lover to smithereens, you'd try to get rid of them too. But you wouldn't wanna tell your lover you were bat**** crazy, because that would be a bad idea. |
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2010-06-13, 18:00 | Link #10997 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Your theory doesn't really has any advantage on shkanon because you still accept the existence of two personalities inside a single body. Also there are other ways to stop someone from committing a massacre. Killing is not certainly a necessity. and I repeat again: Quote:
when Shannon wins it is said that "the souls are gathering into Shannon". and as a consequence Kanon and Beatrice are both vanishings. P.S: There's no way the unfortunate incident was caused by a bomb! P.P.S: Battler says to Beatrice I will kill you! Therfore if you accept Shannontrice you either accept that personalities can be killed or you need to think that Battler is going to kill Shannon. @musouka If Beatrice doesn't join the game she simply loses by default as the part I quoted clearly show.
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2010-06-13, 18:01 | Link #10998 |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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Shannon and Kanon were made before Beatrice, this explains why Beatrice enters later, since she was created later. Beatrice was created to take away Shannon's love for Battler. But she didn't want to crush her first love completely so she locked it away in a imaginary friend of sorts. With Battler dead, Beatrice's role would be gone, thus she wouldn't need to exist anymore. Shannon might consider Beatrice an enemy because she is the existance of her past love for Battler, and that can threaten her new love for George.
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2010-06-13, 18:08 | Link #10999 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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And you can kill a personality. With therapy you can remove your other personality if you have DID which is can be considered 'killing' that personality. But since I don't think Shannon is THAT mentally crazy, I don't think she has DID, which makes things even easier to explain Shakannon (Sorry about the double post btw) |
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2010-06-13, 18:14 | Link #11000 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Like I said, I messed up the specifics, but the core facts are there. I'm going to rework it later. But one thing: Shannontrice has an advantage over Shkanontrice because it doesn't necessitate the unbelievably unrealistic conspiracy in which two servants are one maid, nor does it require the absurdity of "switching personalities" in a room to dodge red text. Quote:
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