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Old 2020-01-15, 01:52   Link #81
BWTraveller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
Unless the max level is 10 then that doesn't really matter, whether it's 2 or 8 the point is she's too low level to survive a boss fight.
A boss fight in a starter town (and no the max isn't 10 considering that she actually hit level 11 after fighting off the monsters that attacked while she slept. I'm pretty sure a dungeon in a starter town isn't all that likely to be designed so you have to be lv. 50 to clear it.

Anyway, new ep out and it's pretty clear that this's a fairly new game. Not so new that everyone's starter-level, obviously, but new enough that they hadn't really done any major events. So yeah it makes a bit more sense that they'd have things they didn't expect. And that's what I see this as being: a person doing what the devs never expected. The game's balanced enough, for veteran players who play in certain "common sense" ways. But for idiots who just do what they want, depending on luck things could actually end up insanely broken, to the point that in a battle royale high-level players can get a clean hit to her head and it just bounces off. So basically her hyperfocus on defense got that value into areas that shouldn't be possible before level 70 or something I guess.

Last edited by BWTraveller; 2020-01-15 at 11:26.
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Old 2020-01-15, 13:05   Link #82
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv175
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Location: Belgium, Brussels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
I think the problem people are having is "You're doing RPGs WRONG! GET IT RIGHT! This shows sucks until you fix that!"
I personally think the problem lies with how the author tried to tailor the game in such way that the protagonist get so much advantages out of it, to the point it isn't any different than SAO or other series abusing the "ore tueee" genre.

Similarly to Chosen Hero, I personally enjoyed the series for whatever it tried to portray Kaede/Maple as the clueless and cute newbie with funny antics, but when you look a bit deeper to the setting, and thus New World Online, suspension of disbelief falls apart extremely quickly, because it is way too convenient for Maple's little adventure.

To begin with, MMO are always balanced in a way to avoid unfair advantage to certain players, however niche build they use, because by virtue of their nature, it would attract too many people complaining left and right and/or turn that into a meta discussion.
If anything, MMO are tested and balanced with BOTH meta and casual players in mind, because high end players define the progression of the game as a whole, why casuals are the backbone of a MMO (be it for population, economy etc). As such, it is extremely difficult to consider that "Maple investing everything on defense is something that no one would ever consider". Actually, that's the opposite: hyper specialization is the one thing you would expect from any player, and ultra defense is not insane, moreso if the MMO follows the tennets of tank/healer/DPS. A tank that is way too bulky would immediately nullify healer role at large, ultimately breaking the balance of the job role. As such, you always see game mechanics that bypass high defense with several stuff (HP based attacks, magic bypassing armor value, status effects, instant death, crowd control limiting tank's mitigation, etc).
Therefore, it actually makes sense for a tank to be affected differently by poison, magic damage and whatnot. I honestly hoped Maple to just get defeated by the Hydra because of the poison thing (and I could related to that, since pot tanking is something most people try early, be it on purpose of by accident), but the fact you can learn immunity just like that is questionable because that's a permanent ability that will affect the character forever (unless the devs create mobs with abilities that bypass immunities, but I digress).

This is where Bofuri's storytelling is not exactly the best way to compliment its genre and delivery: the whole point is to have a light hearted story around a girl who plays a game quite differently but still manage to do something that no other people can do, in a humourous way.
But that kind of stories rely on something that people should be able to relate, which are MMO. The fact it has VR features don't suddenly make the game outlandish to the point it can ignores all of the rules and features of regular games at large.
And that's where it becomes way too convenient when it comes to Maple's build: for some reason, she is able to solo a dungeon boss before anyone else, despite she didn't have anything special at her disposal aside of the poison/heal potions. If she sort of managed to do that on her own without knowing how the game works, then it actually makes sense to expect someone else to have considered that plan before her. So, the fact she somehow got legendary gear that way before anyone else for that specific dungeon is not exactly realistic unless she was among the first players for that game, which is not the case here. Even if the game was designed to specifically reward players with gear that compliment their main stat, the way how Maple could get it first and their abilities is something that doesn't really make sense when you consider how a MMO works in general. Moreso that it is an early dungeon to boot (unless Chrom and Iz are stupid enough to suggest a high level dungeon to a newbie), so its attributes are quite insane. If anything, a self repairing and self improving gear is against the logic of a MMORPG, because the whole point is to grind a character through levels and gear, otherwise you wouldn't be able to keep your userbase for long once they reached the end game.

But what bothers me the most was how the PVP event went: Maple is defined as an immovable object, but that is to the detriment to her speed (even walking one at that) and damage output. Yet, she has a mass crowd control ability and one shot attacks through her shield. It just doesn't really make sense to present her as a very flawed player character at first, to immediately nullify her disadvantages. While the story is sort of genre savvy by implying "she is broken", it doesn't really compliment the story telling that well by just indulging into those very convenient plot devices.

In that sense, I'm more interested in Sally and how she will progress as a former top player, compared to Maple who got just everything on a silver plate.
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Old 2020-01-15, 13:32   Link #83
4th Dimension
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I'm just going to say:

CONSUME ALL THINGS!!

That will be all.
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Old 2020-01-15, 13:49   Link #84
BWTraveller
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As I said before, I think luck plays a big part. Like a hyper-specialized character wouldn't normally be so insane unless they kept getting really good rolls (such as randomly-occurring bonuses and skills happening at the first chance, or rare drops popping up with uncanny frequency). A normal player who just dumped everything into defense wouldn't be as OP as Maple, as a big part of her OP nature is all the stat multipliers she's added on. This resulted in her growth becoming exponential.

But heck, I'm willing to buy the idea of a game with bugs the devs didn't catch resulting in an exceptionally lucky player using just the right build combined with a sufficient number of lucky shots to shoot her through the roof. True, I'm sure a game like that would go out of business the moment another game comes along with comparable graphics and play that happens to be more balanced, but still it's entertaining. She's just about the most lighthearted OP character I've seen, which somehow makes it rather entertaining for me.
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Old 2020-01-15, 14:01   Link #85
The Green One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
snip
So in short you feel they're doing RPGs "wrong" to the show's determent. Thus proving my point. Nothing wrong with feeling that way to be honest, even if I don't personally agree. I'm glad you can enjoy other aspects of the show.

So Risa gets to play now as Sally and has built an evasion tank that revolves around skill. Taking 1-3 hits would probably be enough to kill her with defense and hp being her dump stat. So unlike Maple she relies on skill to win. Now with her own set of OP gear from soloing the Water Temple, lets see what she can really do.

Looks like Maple's transportation woes are solved now that Sally is around to play packmule.

It's amusing that no one really figured out the way to deal with Maple in regards to PvP.

With her snail like movement she can't catch you, so just run away and avoid her like the plague.

Apparently you can attach skills to skill slots on equipment, but they didn't explain how that works or the effect beyond what you could obviously see.
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Old 2020-01-15, 14:25   Link #86
Spica
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Reminds me of Fallout 76's one hit kill mess.
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Old 2020-01-15, 14:42   Link #87
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv175
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
So in short you feel they're doing RPGs "wrong" to the show's determent. Thus proving my point. Nothing wrong with feeling that way to be honest, even if I don't personally agree. I'm glad you can enjoy other aspects of the show.
Your point was all about people not liking "the story being wrong by MMORPG standards", while I have much more issues with the way how it is convulated/convenient regarding maple specifically. For instance, I could somehow accept the sandbox aspect of it if it wasn't so convenient for Maple to justify her broken abilities, which would still be wrong by MMO standards. In other words, "hidden skills" and other sandbox elements are something that should never happen in a MMO because it would be hell to bug fix/balance, but it is a reasonable plot part in fiction as long it is used properly.
So in short, it is "wrong representation of MMO" AND "Maple is being favored to some silly degree" mixed together. If it was just one of them, I would probably have let it slide to a certain degree, but both issues combined is a bit too much.

That being said, some of the issues could have been less troublesome if the anime didn't gloss over the details too much. The whole deal about using gear skills without any MP is something quite important that should have been shown instead of the nonsensical bomber eater scene.
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Old 2020-01-15, 15:00   Link #88
The Green One
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Actually that one was important as that's where she got the skill that allowed her Shield to outright eat people and convert it into MP. After she assigned the skill to the shield's skill slot. That basically allowed the shield to serve as an MP tank she could drain to fuel her bigger attack skills.
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Old 2020-01-15, 15:09   Link #89
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
But heck, I'm willing to buy the idea of a game with bugs the devs didn't catch resulting in an exceptionally lucky player using just the right build combined with a sufficient number of lucky shots to shoot her through the roof. True, I'm sure a game like that would go out of business the moment another game comes along with comparable graphics and play that happens to be more balanced, but still it's entertaining. She's just about the most lighthearted OP character I've seen, which somehow makes it rather entertaining for me.
Well, I don't know. I think this game would be able to hold its own. What I like seeing this game is that it has a lot of so-called "heart". In fact, part of the problem is that it has too much heart. Remember that everything in a game has to be positively inserted, so when Maple gets Absolute Defence, it is because the devs took the time and heart to even in this early stage actively reward people for going off the beaten path. If they had been lazier ... well, why bother putting in something that people don't expect to get anyway, and Maple won't have gotten absolute defence or any of the other skills that require going way off the beaten path to get ... because, hey, no one would notice not getting things they don't expect. And the fewer factors you have, the easier it is to "balance".

At least they managed to adjust this game enough that a supposedly very common build in other MMOs - the minmax does not seem to have taken a real foothold here.

BTW, I think that they didn't put in defence-penetrating attacks from the get-go because they want this world to be the most natural one yet, and something arbitrary like an attack that would get damage in no matter what would be against that goal.
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Old 2020-01-15, 15:16   Link #90
The Green One
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Maple is also a surprising good artist for stick drawing isn't she?
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Old 2020-01-15, 15:30   Link #91
kukuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post

With her snail like movement she can't catch you, so just run away and avoid her like the plague.

Apparently you can attach skills to skill slots on equipment, but they didn't explain how that works or the effect beyond what you could obviously see.
She attached eater to her unique shield. It's a special option where you can attach 1 skill, at the cost of never acquiring the skill again, to a piece of equipment in order for it to activate without CD...sounds like a delicate balance...except, anything touching the shield instead activated it, becoming a MP tank which somehow fueled her hydra which eats up almost her entirely small MP pool.

It's the perfect combination of skills and equipment that should not have existed.

That's the reason she didn't end up higher in the pvp chart. She was a gloried honey trap.

Basically you'll only get caught if you actively engage maple, since she'll suck your attacks, and then paralyze, poison you into a slow grave.

BTW, in the game the Meta build are offense builds, where Maple is the direct opposite, the most unpopular vit-tank build.

This is because for all of Maple's OP abilities, her avatar will level slower then everyone else, hard to party with, and take forever to travel.

It was never mentioned, but imagine leveling at 4x slower or more of everyone else. Life of a meat shield.
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Old 2020-01-15, 15:37   Link #92
kari-no-sugata II
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So many catgirls being killed by this discussion

All games have bugs / exploits, particularly so after major changes and especially when the game has just been released. A certain game I play a lot introduced an infinite money bug about a year ago (and it took them several patches to completely remove it), as well as some major resource exploits if you were willing to use a very cruel playing style...

For me, while I find the bug exploits a bit annoying, it's more the other aspects of the story that kinda let the overall thing down - while I don't mind more "casual" stories, here the characters aren't quite endearing enough for me to carry the show. If the plot is casual then you really need that...
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Old 2020-01-15, 16:03   Link #93
nojay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kukuru View Post

That's the reason she didn't end up higher in the pvp chart. She was a gloried honey trap.

Basically you'll only get caught if you actively engage maple, since she'll suck your attacks, and then paralyze, poison you into a slow grave.
Hardly anyone plays MMOs and first-person shooters with the intention of never attacking, always defending, especially in solo mode. Sure there are folks who roll VIT-heavy tanks but they still plan to go out there and murder, slaughter, KILL! Maple doesn't attack and she can't pursue anyone, she just stands there, aggros monsters to attack her, bounce off and die. In the Battle Royale she did the same thing with her opponents - bounce, splat, die. It is to laugh.

For the folks affronted that the anime-original VRMMO New World Online is buggy and doesn't work "right", we've now got confirmation it's a brand-new game, only a few days from general release so bugs and unreported edge cases are going to be rife. Now they're rolling out their first level expansion expect some patches and stats levelling changes soon.

BTW Shield Loli has sick artistic skills.
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Old 2020-01-15, 16:56   Link #94
Liddo-kun
is this so?
 
 
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Watched episode 2:

Maple did good on the combination of paralyze + poison so that her enemies can't run away.

Also, her three headed poison dragon breathing down poison on players, brutal.
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Old 2020-01-15, 17:09   Link #95
Dop
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Still on the fence on this one.
On the one hand it's pretty much the only "I'm in a computer game" type show that I've made it through two episodes of.
On the other hand, it's not a genre that clicks for me.

On the third hand (what am I, Zaphod Beeblebrox?) there's not much on Wednesdays so I might stick with it a while longer.
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Old 2020-01-15, 17:20   Link #96
Magewolf
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This episode reminded me of two things. "If You Shoot Him You’ll Just Make Him Mad" from Blazing Saddles and Dark Schneider's signature spell Venom from Bastard!!. You do not see many main characters using poison attacks.
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Old 2020-01-15, 17:37   Link #97
BWTraveller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, I don't know. I think this game would be able to hold its own. What I like seeing this game is that it has a lot of so-called "heart". In fact, part of the problem is that it has too much heart. Remember that everything in a game has to be positively inserted, so when Maple gets Absolute Defence, it is because the devs took the time and heart to even in this early stage actively reward people for going off the beaten path. If they had been lazier ... well, why bother putting in something that people don't expect to get anyway, and Maple won't have gotten absolute defence or any of the other skills that require going way off the beaten path to get ... because, hey, no one would notice not getting things they don't expect. And the fewer factors you have, the easier it is to "balance".

At least they managed to adjust this game enough that a supposedly very common build in other MMOs - the minmax does not seem to have taken a real foothold here.

BTW, I think that they didn't put in defence-penetrating attacks from the get-go because they want this world to be the most natural one yet, and something arbitrary like an attack that would get damage in no matter what would be against that goal.
You seem to be assuming that her defense is actually "absolute" when it doesn't really have to be. It's a fairly common feature in games for attacks to cause 0 damage if the attack power is too far below the defense power. It's no "they took time to reward people who went down this crazy path" and more "they thought it practical that an advanced player whose defense has risen really high probably won't actually be hurt by a starter area apple bunny". They just didn't expect someone to not only max her stats to the point of crippling herself in other areas but ALSO be lucky enough to pick up rare drops and skills left and right to multiply her defense, resulting in a girl whose level would typically have a defense of less than 200 instead having a defense in the thousands.
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Old 2020-01-15, 17:57   Link #98
kukuru
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Just because Vit is overwhelming doesn't mean you take no damage. There are more then one type of attacks and skills.

You still only have 40hp worth of life.
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Old 2020-01-15, 18:38   Link #99
AC-Phoenix
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Just picked this up and the first thing I got to say... Her stats don't make sense... 0 Strength and a huge shield...?`roflwhat.
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Old 2020-01-15, 18:46   Link #100
The Green One
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Gears don't have a str requirement apparently. Sally herself even states that good weapons can make up for shit STR in this game.
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