High School DxD Light Novel - Volume 23

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Was Vali dead, unconscious, or too injured to continue fighting? If not, your point is moot. Vali was overwhelmingly stronger than Issei. That short burst of power that allowed him to overwhelm Vali wasn't permanent and wasn't going to last forever. And nothing proved in the slightest that Vali was low on demonic powers.

Uh, no? My point was that Ise beat him down so badly Vali decided to use JD. Which is literally what happened. Ise had already exceeded Vali's physical capabilities halfway through the fight, made an opening by stealing DD, and then punched his face in with Ascalon.

Albion makes it clear Vali won't be able to control JD, meaning he no longer has the resources he would normally have to do so.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

And Vali didn't need to go JD but simply got so fired up.

He could either go JD or accept his loss. He chose the former.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

And Vali is not 100% safe from using Juggernaut Drive. He can only last a few minutes while keeping his sanity. And with him fighting his longtime sworn rival. His transformation into Juggernaut Drive could unwittingly cause Issei to awaken his. That was Albion's main concern. We really can't act like the battle against Vali's sworn rival is like all of his other fights where he used Juggernaut Drive.

Albion's main concern was the fact that Vali was going to be at the mercy of his power. Which is why he shouts that one while the other warning was just an offhanded "you know he can do that too, right?".

[DragonOsman]

Ise probably only "exceeded Vali's capabilities" there shortly because of his rage due to thinking, "Oh, crap, he's about to halve all of the girls' breasts! Buchou's breasts! Akeno-san's breasts! Koneko-chan's small breasts! Asia-chan's still-growing breasts! No! I can't allow that!". That's literally what was fueling his power. But yeah, he was also using his Dividing Gear and Ascalon on Vali, so there's also that.

[KnightShade]

Do you? Where does albion mention anything about valis demonic power being a concern? Vali is under the threat of sucumbing to albion everytime he uses JD. Even under normal circumstances its not an option albion recomends.


There is nothing to disprove because the fight never concluded in a definitive result.
Your own definition for being overwhelmed disagrees with you for the simple reason that vali wasnt completly defeated. Issei had the edge momentarily, thats not the same thing as actually defeating someone. Vali didnt have to use JD at that point and ive provided 2 different passages to back that up. By your own logic vali beat crom crouch just because he got the last couple hits in with dxd l even though the fight was disrupted.

The same last hit that we have no idea he would have been able to land given his bxb was running on fumes? Even if isseis divide simply stopped halving valis energy, you have no way of knowing vali was depleted to the point where cant mantain JD even for as small as a minute, and thats all Vali would have needed given isseis bxb was running out. But again what would have happened is pointless speculation. The fact is the fight didnt end and isseis bombardment was negated prior to vali attempting the chant, so he no longer had an edge at the end whether vali uses jug or not.

[XFire]

So much for the last thing you'll say

Originally Posted by kidstandout

Do you? Where does albion mention anything about valis demonic power being a concern?

"Do you want to be at the mercy of my power!?"

Which in the volume five quote provided earlier is noted for being strange since Vali could normally control it with his demonic power.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

There is nothing to disprove because the fight never concluded in a definitive result.
Your own definition for being overwhelmed disagrees with you for the simple reason that vali wasn't completely defeated. Issei had the edge momentarily, thats not the same thing as actually defeating someone. Vali didn't have to use JD at that point and ive provided 2 different passages to back that up. By your own logic vali beat crom crouch just because he got the last couple hits in with dxd l even though the fight was disrupted.

You didn't provide squat, you chopped up and deliberately misrepresented a couple of quotes that didn't have anything to do with what you were saying. You tried to use Vali and Albion talking about counteracting DD as if they were talking about all the damage he sustained in the fight, and somehow took a quote saying Albions reaction indicated Vali wasn't able to control it like normal to indicate that...he could control it like normal.

Vali was in the dirt spitting up blood while Ise was flying over him about to land what Ise called a finishing blow.

And Crom wasn't cornered to the point he was about to use a suicidal move to try and turn the tables. That two fights aren't remotely comparable.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

The same last hit that we have no idea he would have been able to land given his bxb was running on fumes? Even if isseis divide simply stopped halving valis energy, you have no way of knowing vali was depleted to the point where cant mantain JD even for as small as a minute, and thats all Vali would have needed given isseis bxb was running out. But again what would have happened is pointless speculation. The fact is the fight didnt end and isseis bombardment was negated prior to vali attempting the chant, so he no longer had an edge at the end whether vali uses jug or not.

The only reason it didn't land was because Bikou interfered. And Issei hit him with divide and then smashed his face in with a dragon slaying holy sword. Albion makes it clear Vali is about to put himself at the mercy of Albion's power.

His "bombardment"? Ise wasn't bombarding him, he was punching his face in. And the only thing negated was Ise being able to use divide on Vali. You seriously didn't read this at all, did you?

Vali gets knocked to the ground, bleeding.

He decides to use JD.

Albion says "No, you'll be consumed"

Vali starts chanting anyway.

He was backed into a corner and chose a rampage over admitting defeat. That is the literal progression of events in the novel.

Your entire response to this is effectively "Well if he'd used JD at the very beginning he'd have won so obviously he could have just done it later despite it being stated multiple times he couldn't have".

It's ridiculous and borderline troll behavior.

[DragonOsman]

@kidstandoout: When did any of us ever say Vali wouldn't be able to use it at all? I only said he wouldn't be able to hold back the negative effects as long as he'd normally be able to. And also, don't forge that Albion said that Ddraig's curse would be released if Vali went into Juggernaut Drive. Translation: Ise's Juggernaut Drive would be triggered. Even if Vali had a minute, with Ise's Juggernaut Drive already activated, the fight would've been dragged out longer than a minute and Vali would've been consumed by his own Juggernaut Drive anyway.

[Lucidrago]

But what makes you think he was low on demonic power? I never said anything about 'stolen power being returned.' Just made a note about how Vali has very high demonic powers and halving it a few times would probably do nothing to Vali.

It seems like some of you are creating your own headcanon just to make Issei look better than he actually is.

[Gaizafaiz]

Just reread volume 7, Vali was able to put on JD even after taking a bite from Fenrir. So this at least confirms that he is able to use JD during his fight with Issei.

[Lucidrago]

Let's move on.

We didn't get to see much of Deethelm, but Nero and Milana were pretty impressive. No wonder why they were chosen to be Brave Saints and Uriel's Ace and Gabriel's Ace. Those two are as strong as the members of the Gremory group. I just wish Ishibumi went into some more details like about Kiyotora's blades and him fighting. Not anything big. But like a paragraph dedicated to each of them fighting and describing how they fought and their record within the Church.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

But what makes you think he was low on demonic power? I never said anything about 'stolen power being returned.' Just made a note about how Vali has very high demonic powers and halving it a few times would probably do nothing to Vali.

It seems like some of you are creating your own headcanon just to make Issei look better than he actually is.

Albion says he would be consumed by JD. Azazel notes that Albion acting like that is unusual since Vali should be able to control it with his demonic power. Ergo, he was not able to do so at the time. So either he used it up in the fight or he completely forgot about it.

And then you're going to ignore what multiple characters state in the novel in favor of your own interpretation of the character you like, and then accuse others of creating headcanon.

Do I actually need to point out how much is wrong with this?

Seriously, everytime you or kidstandout makes a post it's either based entirely off of how you think things should have gone instead of how they actually did in the novel, or it's misquoting the novel to say the opposite of what it actually says.

This isn't even a debate anymore, its literally you two arguing against the actual story itself not saying what you want.

Originally Posted by Gaizafaiz

Just reread volume 7, Vali was able to put on JD even after taking a bite from Fenrir. So this at least confirms that he is able to use JD during his fight with Issei.

No one said he couldn't use it, but Albion said he couldn't control it against Ise.

And he went into the fight with Fenrir planning to set up that exact scenario, he prepared for it ahead of time. And he deliberately dumped himself into a separate dimension so he didn't have to worry about going on a rampage.

[Lucidrago]

Vali gets consumed anyway if he goes past his time limit using Juggernaut Drive.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Vali gets consumed anyway if he goes past his time limit using Juggernaut Drive.

...........Yes?

The point was Albion was telling him he'd get consumed immediately because he'd lost so much energy.

If he just busts it out while still relatively full of power, he can use it and turn back before he starts to burn out, i.e. what he did to hold down Fenrir.

Vali being able to use JD was never in question. Hell, if he had done so he'd have probably taken out everyone there, Ise included (or at least secured a mutual kill). But Vali would have died to because le rampage.

[B214]

If Vali lost too much energy then his bb would've been undone or the recovery would slow down. That wasn't the case. Albion was probably worried that Vali would become to engross in fighting Ise that he forgets his limit.

[DragonOsman]

The point is that Albion was worried that Vali would reach his limit sooner that he normally would have. That's what I'm trying to say, at least. Vali did have enough power left to stay in Balance Breaker and continue repairing his armor, but he still might have reached his limit sooner than normal in Juggernaut Drive, ending up being consumed by the power quicker than he normally would have. And then Vali entering Juggernaut Drive would've triggered Ise's, too. Mutual destruction.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

If Vali lost too much energy then his bb would've been undone or the recovery would slow down. That wasn't the case. Albion was probably worried that Vali would become to engross in fighting Ise that he forgets his limit.

No. Ise can't control it at all and can still keep BB up for a while. The cost of the two are massive different. He can keep BB up for months, but only a couple minutes for JD. He could have days left in him and its be a split second for JD.

[DragonOsman]

A few minutes at most when his Demonic Power tank is full. But at that time, he must've had less time that he could've been control for before going berserk.

[B214]

Originally Posted by XFire

No. Ise can't control it at all and can still keep BB up for a while. The cost of the two are massive different. He can keep BB up for months, but only a couple minutes for JD. He could have days left in him and its be a split second for JD.

Did you forget Ise's BB was due to Azazel's bracelet? In fact, the price of using that bracelet was a toll on Ise too. Ise back then was just randomly releasing power. If randomly releasing power counts as overwhelming, i guess if Vali continued after Ise's ring broke would be overkill 50 times then.

"Right now is for emergency-use! I was made a fool of by him! As if I’ll let him get away!"

…Suddenly, I was seized by intense fatigue…I couldn’t put any strength into my feet. I couldn’t grasp my fist either.

“If you explosively emit that much power in an instant, your stamina will become empty. As you are now, what you are able to store is limited and long battles are impossible.”

For starters, overwhelm usually applies to situation like Saitama. Ise doesn't fit that category, at most is he overpowered Vali. If Ise overwhelm Vali, then Ise should be the victor but Ise didn't win.

Besides, even Ise himself pointed it out:

[Vali, I finished analysing his halving power. When compared with the control method of your power, you can handle it.]

“I see. I’m not afraid of him with this.”

No way. It’s not showing any effect anymore! Even though I thought I delivered that much pain!

“Albion, do you think he’s worthy enough to show the Hakuryuukou’s [Juggernaut Drive] if it’s the current Hyoudou Issei?”

[Vali, it’s not a good choice in this place. If you recklessly enter “Juggernaut Drive”, Ddraig’s curse may be removed.]

Ise's attack lost it's effect after a while.

[DragonOsman]

Yes, that's indeed an issue. But does that apply to Juggernaut Drive?

Again, if Vali had used Juggernaut Drive that time, Ise's would have been triggered and it'd have been really bad (you should know why).

[Lucidrago]

Can we please move on from this and talk more about the match that just finished?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by B214

Did you forget Ise's BB was due to Azazel's bracelet? In fact, the price of using that bracelet was a toll on Ise too. Ise back then was just randomly releasing power. If randomly releasing power counts as overwhelming, i guess if Vali continued after Ise's ring broke would be overkill 50 times then.

The heck are you talking about? The bracelet subs in for Ise needing to sacrifice a body part to use BB. He wasn't randomly releasing anything.

Vali was down in the dirt bleeding and about to burn himself up with JD, and Issei says he was about to deliver a finishing blow to stop him. Bikou jumped in to interrupt the fight specifically to save Vali's ass.

Originally Posted by B214

For starters, overwhelm usually applies to situation like Saitama. Ise doesn't fit that category, at most is he overpowered Vali. If Ise overwhelm Vali, then Ise should be the victor but Ise didn't win.

Buddy, the literal definition of the word has been quoted half a dozen times over the past couple days in this thread.

Ise beat Vali. He cornered him to the point that Vali's only option was to flee of use JD, which would have killed him.

And he did so through the use of superior force. He literally punched his face in till Vali fell out of the sky.

Originally Posted by B214

Besides, even Ise himself pointed it out:

Ise's attack lost it's effect after a while.

Aaaaand you haven't been paying attention at all.

Not only has that been addressed repeatedly in the thread, your own quote blatantly contradicts you. They're talking about the halving power Ise just stole, not all the damage he's taken so far.

[Gaizafaiz]

Cornered? Like seriously man? Can you quote where you think he was cornered by Issei. I really want to see it. Bikou didn't interrupt the fight to save Vali's ass. He came to interrupt because Cattleya failed to assassinate Azazel, Michael and Lucifer. Vali's task is to observe the situation. That's all. If you still want to say that Bikou interrupt the fight to save Vali, then please quote it. I really want to see where you get it from.