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Old 2011-04-25, 13:32   Link #2521
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
Well, I simply don't estimate the Puella Magi system high enough to consider it a universal law. Otherwise than changing it, the only serious impact Madoka had on the universe is creating the final timeline, but like I said earlier, that was pretty much the effect of her wish rather than free application of her powers.
Erasing out witches wouldn't have created the new system. I'm talking about how Majuus are created.

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Going by QB's explanations, the history might have drastically changed if Madoka erased magical girls themselves, together with the wishes they make. Which she didn't. The history-shaping wishes and their impact remained; the girls who made them were known to have died/disappeared which they actually did, only without becoming witches now. And Homura's example makes it quite clear that you don't need to be a goddess to rewrite history. A Puella Magi is enough.
No if the history of incubators and humans started a long time ago just eliminating witches would create a huge difference. Just think about the effects it would have over time especially when people who should have died to witches back then would create a difference at how history progresses.

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She didn't change universal laws per se. She put herself into a position to interrupt it. As an example: Imagine scientists have mathematically shown that the speed of light is not the absolute speed limit in the universe, but for some reason nothing in the unverse goes any faster naturally and any attempt to do so artifically just stops going faster at light speed. It would seem that the math is wrong, but what if that's because someone is everywhere and everywhen and simply stops anything before it goes faster than light? That's what Madoka did. It looks like a universal law because it applies everywhere at all times. That's a shortcoming of the scientific method. Because there's no way of directly accessing the lawbook of the universe, the only way to find those laws is to experiment with things under their influence. It can't tell you if someone is interfering with the law universally.
That's probably what happened to the Incubators in the new timeline. They had theorized that a shattering soul gem would release tremendous amounts of the magical energy they wanted, but the soul gem simply vanished as it broke in all their experiments thanks to the Pink Reaper they couldn't detect. Eventually, they chalk it up to a universal law they can't comprehend and look for other means to tap the energy they want.
But would the Incubators take Homura's words seriously enough to begin experiments to try and find Madoka and "deal" with her?
Ah I understand that part regarding the soul gems however what I'm talking about is the change on how grief and despair turns into curses. Witches used to come from the grief of an MG while Majuus come from grief and despair from the overall populace. That's entirely different no?

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Madoka's wish was NOT about becoming god. It was simply preventing mahou shoujos of past, present and future from becoming witch, by 'HERSELF'. That's why it is important. Madoka was the 'center' of the time and space due to Homura's repeated loop, thus she was able to achieve power to manipulate time, space and entire rule of Kyuube's business. She became 'EXCEPTION' of universal law, thus referred as god by Kyuube.

But that's it. Madoka became a 'RULE', 'CONCEPT'. That's why she exists in everywhere, at anytime. By becoming a rule by herself, she can prevent occurrence of witches with her own hand, thus wish is granted.
I'm well aware she didn't wish to be a god but the magnitude of her wish granted her godlike powers. Remember the power they receive is different from their wish itself. QB knew that if her wish is fulfilled she will attain that much power because her wish itself transcends time and space.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-04-25, 13:43   Link #2522
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@Applejuice: 1 there. But that is the core of my doubts about whether she could change fate for Sayaka directly or not. I agree with the word "concept": it may seem akward in the sense that we've never heard of SENTIENT concepts, but that definition coming from Kyuubey seems more appropriate. "God" initially seems to be the closest he can describe Madoka's wish as, and there is no other term he can use until he actually sees the results - he's not omniscient himself, and he deals with powers that - as he puts it in ep 9 - defy reason. From this point of view, in theory one could call every Puella Magi a goddess; Madoka just snatches the flag by the aforementioned acquired features (omnipresence, independence on time, immortality and lack of physical body). In this point she really does LOOK god-like, and Shaft (being Shaft) happily plays with this impression - cue Michael Angelo's picture in the bar Junko and Kazuko meet, Madoka's white dress and wings, her hand petting an Anthony (good luck guessing what HE does there practically, above symbolism purposes ). But come on, do we believe in Madokami because Shaft succesfully trolled us into it? Some symbols should be approached carefully, or we'll repeat the whole blakck cat story.

And before assuming that Madoka is goddess able to rewrite reality as she likes (I assume this is the keypoint of our debates), we should question if she has such powers and WHERE she might get them from. Those of her features we discussed stem directly from her wish and the process of carrying it out. So far I can't find anything that would point at her ability to rewrite history/universe DIRECTLY, change someone's fate and such. I repeat, directly is the keyword. She didn't ask for tht specific ability, and the realisation of her wish doesn't seem to have required it. On the other hand, I don't question things that were changed indirectly, via her influence. That would be another thing (like, say, Kyuubey stopping enthropy issue with his own will would make him nothing short of a deity, but countering it with the help of the Puella Magi system and human contractors hardly does).
The correction of GG subs may be relevant in other aspects, but it doesn't quite change the gist: this timeline will be negated as a result of the only possible way to save Sayaka from witchhood. It's fair to ask: why can't Madokami-sama leave this universe be, resurrect her friend, redirect Hitomi's feelings at some random guy... All instead of giving her friend a choice like "Do you prefer him healed but with another girl and you dead again, or do youprefer not to have contracted and keep the status quo?" And hey, skip Sayaka - how about creating a world where Mami is alive with her parents, and where Kyouko sees her family alive and well-to-do? Neither would mind, and neither would have to sacrifice their lives in the first place. Once we assume Madoka has full set of godlike powers like shaping up the universe, there's no more telling where the limit to these powers lies. Hence many of Madoka's actions after the contract would become rather headscratching.

That is why I interpret the audition scene not as Madoka giving free choices, but as her apologizing to Sayaka for causing the events like Kyousuke's ailment and the price she'll have to pay to heal him repeat. She adds that she doesn't see Sayaka's decision to contract as meaningless, even despite the outcome and this Sayaka seems to agree with. IMHO the only condition that would give Sayaka a free choice is her somehow retaining the memories of a previous timeline. Otherwise, we play out the third timeline minus witchhood issues and minus Madoka.
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Old 2011-04-25, 13:54   Link #2523
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
Erasing out witches wouldn't have created the new system. I'm talking about how Majuus are created.
That's pretty simple. In episode 11 QB explain to Madoka he didn't betray the magical girls, their own wished betrayed them. When a wish it's outside the bounds of logic, it creates distortions, which is the cause of the wishes' drawbacks, and what leads to despair.

Now, in one the last scene of episode 12, Homura says, that even though there's not more witches in this world, curses still exist, because the distortions in this world takes form of Majuus.

There you have it. It's a no brainer. Madoka's wish was way outside the bounds of logic too, so it created distortions in the world as a counter-effect, and the result are the Majuus.

I mean, you didn't seriously think that because it was Madoka who was wishing, her wish wasn't going to have its drawback, do you?


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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
I'm well aware she didn't wish to be a god but the magnitude of her wish granted her godlike powers. Remember the power they receive is different from their wish itself. QB knew that if her wish is fulfilled she will attain that much power because her wish itself transcends time and space.
No, QB didn't say godlike powers. What he did say is that after Madoka fulfilled her wish, she would become an existence removed from this plane of existence. So she can't really interact with this universe, and so has no powers over this universe (so no godlike powers) except for the effect of her wish, the new rule that she added to the system: that all witches would be erased.

So, rather than godlike powers, Madoka became an idea of hope. Not a presence, not existence, just a concept, as QB explained.
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Old 2011-04-25, 14:06   Link #2524
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Concerning demons. All we know about them is that they are born from despair and negative emotions, and they attack people in pretty much the same way witches did. And since emotions, despair included, existed since prehistoric times (the reason why Incubators visited Earth), is it too far-fetched to assume demons could have existed originally? For all we know, the first magical girls could be told to hunt demons; but since witches started appearing, they fed on all the despair and curses (always craving for more) and demons practically became extinct. Now imagine the world without withes - and all people who had fallen prey to them could just easily fall prey to demons.
The scope of powers the wish gives may vary indeed, but it should revolve around the wish. And Madoka's god-like powers are not the question as much as the actual scope of powers we're trying to ascribe to her. If she's not omnipotent (and that would really change the way she did many things), or her powers are limited with the only bonus of being omnipresent and immaterial not unlike a deity. Apart from that, rewinding time and branching timelines, healing people and having extra fast recovery, influencing people's minds and being relatively immortal by human standards - it all may count as god-like powers. Shall we start a pantheon?
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Old 2011-04-25, 14:12   Link #2525
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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
The scope of powers the wish gives may vary indeed, but it should revolve around the wish. And Madoka's god-like powers are not the question as much as the actual scope of powers we're trying to ascribe to her. If she's not omnipotent (and that would really change the way she did many things), or her powers are limited with the only bonus of being omnipresent and immaterial not unlike a deity. Apart from that, rewinding time and branching timelines, healing people and having extra fast recovery, influencing people's minds and being relatively immortal by human standards - it all may count as god-like powers. Shall we start a pantheon?
But Madoka became a witch, and her wish then kicked in and erased her too, so that's why she became a concept, a non-existence. That's why whatever power she could have as a magical girl is no more, and if she still has some power her non-existence state prevents her from interacting with this universe anyway, so there's not way she could use said power (if she actually has those powers, which I don't think it's possible in her non-existence, concept like state).
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Old 2011-04-25, 14:58   Link #2526
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But Madoka became a witch, and her wish then kicked in and erased her too, so that's why she became a concept, a non-existence. That's why whatever power she could have as a magical girl is no more, and if she still has some power her non-existence state prevents her from interacting with this universe anyway, so there's not way she could use said power (if she actually has those powers, which I don't think it's possible in her non-existence, concept like state).
Hold on, when did Madoka become a witch? She turned into a mahou shoujo, defeated the Walpurgis Night, helped all of the puella magis in different times and prevented them from turning into witches by taking their grief on her shoulders, then she discarded the grief she had accumulated and used up her powers and that's the reason she disappeared and became a kind of a concept as her wish had influenced the world in its entirety and in every age. She didn't turn into a witch. She was erased without becoming one.
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:01   Link #2527
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That's pretty simple. In episode 11 QB explain to Madoka he didn't betray the magical girls, their own wished betrayed them. When a wish it's outside the bounds of logic, it creates distortions, which is the cause of the wishes' drawbacks, and what leads to despair.

Now, in one the last scene of episode 12, Homura says, that even though there's not more witches in this world, curses still exist, because the distortions in this world takes form of Majuus.

There you have it. It's a no brainer. Madoka's wish was way outside the bounds of logic too, so it created distortions in the world as a counter-effect, and the result are the Majuus.
I was under the impression that majuus were distortions from the despair and grief from the normal populace not the wish itself. But thanks for pointing that out I just checked the conversation and yes that explanation fits.

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I mean, you didn't seriously think that because it was Madoka who was wishing, her wish wasn't going to have its drawback, do you?
Oh I do know that Madoka is not an exception hence the need to kill herself.

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No, QB didn't say godlike powers. What he did say is that after Madoka fulfilled her wish, she would become an existence removed from this plane of existence. So she can't really interact with this universe, and so has no powers over this universe (so no godlike powers) except for the effect of her wish, the new rule that she added to the system: that all witches would be erased.

So, rather than godlike powers, Madoka became an idea of hope. Not a presence, not existence, just a concept, as QB explained.
I was referring to QB's line during the wishmaking actually. QB clearly said that she would become a god with a wish like that to which Madoka retorted that she didn't care.
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The scope of powers the wish gives may vary indeed, but it should revolve around the wish. And Madoka's god-like powers are not the question as much as the actual scope of powers we're trying to ascribe to her. If she's not omnipotent (and that would really change the way she did many things), or her powers are limited with the only bonus of being omnipresent and immaterial not unlike a deity. Apart from that, rewinding time and branching timelines, healing people and having extra fast recovery, influencing people's minds and being relatively immortal by human standards - it all may count as god-like powers. Shall we start a pantheon?
Quote:
But Madoka became a witch, and her wish then kicked in and erased her too, so that's why she became a concept, a non-existence. That's why whatever power she could have as a magical girl is no more, and if she still has some power her non-existence state prevents her from interacting with this universe anyway, so there's not way she could use said power (if she actually has those powers, which I don't think it's possible in her non-existence, concept like state).
Since Madoka's wish will automatically make her omnipresent I could only imagine that the real power she gains from that wish is of the same magnitude. Now whether she can use said powers due to her lack of physical form is something that can't really be proven but I'd like to believe that she can given my stance on this matter.
__________________
Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:17   Link #2528
Kazu-kun
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Hold on, when did Madoka become a witch? She turned into a mahou shoujo, defeated the Walpurgis Night, helped all of the puella magis in different times and prevented them from turning into witches by taking their grief on her shoulders, then she discarded the grief she had accumulated and used up her powers and that's the reason she disappeared and became a kind of a concept as her wish had influenced the world in its entirety and in every age. She didn't turn into a witch. She was erased without becoming one.
No. QB explained her soul gem absorbed all the despair of the magical girls of the universe, despair equivalent to the amount of hope granted by her wish, so her soul gem becomes a witch capable of the destroying the whole universe, as QB explained.

But then Madoka's wish kicks in. Her line here is figurative speak: "my wish has been granted, so there's no need for me to despair."

And so, she erases her own witch. Because the witch is herself, she can't exist anymore, so her existence is erased from the universe.

And that's how she becomes and "being" who has no existence in this universe, a "non-being" so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
Since Madoka's wish will automatically make her omnipresent I could only imagine that the real power she gains from that wish is of the same magnitude. Now whether she can use said powers due to her lack of physical form is something that can't really be proven but I'd like to believe that she can given my stance on this matter.
Well, if we talking about what we believe or not without any prof then there's no much topic of conversation. For me, I take it as it was explained. QB said "concept", no existence is this universe. That's clear enough for me.
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:24   Link #2529
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I think that Gen left the ending somewhat open-ended.

This is why we have Puella Magis that now "disappear".

Where do they disappear to? Who knows. Each viewer will have to interpret that for himself or herself. I have my own interpretation here that I'm comfortable with, and will stick to unless a sequel or some statement from Gen contradicts it, but other viewers are free to have their interpretation too.


Likewise, "What is the exact nature of Madoka post-wish Timeline 5?" That too is left at least somewhat up to debate, and different people are able to interpret it differently.

I think that Gen left these things a little bit vague and open-ended so that most viewers would feel free to filter the narrative's core ideas through the prism of his or her own personal worldview and/or belief system.


So while it is interesting to debate over who/what exactly Madoka is now, I don't necessarily think that there's one definitive and comprehensive "right" answer to that question. And perhaps that's for the best.


I will say, though, that I myself an inclined to view Madoka has now being as close to God as a being can be without actually being God.
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:40   Link #2530
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Before this discussion I'm pretty sure that Madoka's existence is close to God but after reading various plausible interpretations and misinterpretations on my part... yeah, I'd agree that Madoka's current existence is now up to you on how you interpret some of the loose ends in the show.

Ah I really love this show. Been reading various blogs all day regarding the finale and it's really fun to read up on the different interpretations regarding the ending and the symbolisms the finale gave us.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:03   Link #2531
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Well, there was a witch... Maybe from outer perspective there's a delay? Come to think of it, WN had her while giggling and trying to ram into Madoka, although she should have disappeared immediately.
Erasing one's witch form doesn't exclude a magical girl from existence (otherwise... "Who's Cleopatra? Is she an anime character?"). And it seems to me that Madoka neatly bypassed the system, since only the current Madoka turned into a witch. And then she didn't - due to her own interference. If she did become a witch in all timelines and worlds (through equally absorbing despair in all of them), her wish would end in a massive paradox-driven SNAFU - omnipresent puella magi becomes omnipresent witch, now WHERE do you get her very self to erase that witch? May be too idealistic on my side, but I don't see her disappearing, just incompatible with physical exsistece anymore, again because of her omnipresence. God or not, omnipresence is something a physical being can hardly pull off.
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:07   Link #2532
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I already said in the episodes thread, but for me there's little to interpret/analyze. It's left to the spectator imagination, hence there's little to discuss IMO, as any view can be considered correct. Also, for this particular case I'd say it wasn't really meant to give something deeper to discuss (it's first and foremost entertainment after all)....
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:30   Link #2533
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Madoka got amnesia and became Haruhi.
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:49   Link #2534
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One who exists but at the same time does not!

One who sees and influences the multiverse!

Sounds like God to me! >>
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Old 2011-04-25, 17:50   Link #2535
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Kinda hard to see and influence the multiverse if you don't exist
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Old 2011-04-25, 18:28   Link #2536
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She does exist, its just that she doesn't exist in our plane of existence, but rather another plane.
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Old 2011-04-25, 18:38   Link #2537
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The curses take form in the new world because humanity is not free from grief or despair. All grief was originally gathered within a Soul Gem, but Madoka prevents it from happening.

Madoka's wish does not remove misfortune from the world -- she just removes the attachment to Puella Magi. Now, the curses are not fallen Puella Magi, but the exact things Mami and Madoka believed them to be back when they didn't know the truth: despair taken form for Puella Magi, the heroes of hope, to vanquish.

The new system is the the very system that both Madoka and Mami believed in at the very beginning.
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Old 2011-04-25, 18:50   Link #2538
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Not to mention she already influenced every universe/time line as she reversed every puella turned witch's time backwards to before they turned into witch to save them!

If gods that have never done anything or little to nothing for humanity (I'm looking at you Norse gods) can be called a god, and if the god of the bible created this fucked up world we live in then forgot about it, why can't Madoka who saved the future of her people be a God?!!!

Like Haruhi as God? What did she do except create (LOL) amoeba monsters that destroy all in their path because she is jealous or pissed? Are we sure she isn't the Devil?

Lain...Exactly what did Lain do for the world?

I'm sure there are other Godly beings in anime but I will bet none of them are are beneficial to and selfless towards humanity as Madoka is!

And really, no one knows what God is actually capable of, I know I don't but I have seen what Madoka did and I love her God-like actions towards the people more than the others!
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Old 2011-04-25, 19:08   Link #2539
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Not to mention she already influenced every universe/time line as she reversed every puella turned witch's time backwards to before they turned into witch to save them!

If gods that have never done anything or little to nothing for humanity (I'm looking at you Norse gods) can be called a god, and if the god of the bible created this fucked up world we live in then forgot about it, why can't Madoka who saved the future of her people be a God?!!!
Going by The Bible itself, the God of The Bible did not create our world and then simply "forget about it".

Let's not turn this into a serious religious debate, Ok?


You can think of Madoka however you want. So can the rest of us.
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Old 2011-04-25, 19:32   Link #2540
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Going by The Bible itself, the God of The Bible did not create our world and then simply "forget about it".

Let's not turn this into a serious religious debate, Ok?


You can think of Madoka however you want. So can the rest of us.
If you read around here, some people have compared the ending with other faiths as well (Buddhism).

As a fruit of thought - good writing and story telling includes opening the reader/viewer for different interpretations. The fact that folks are debating "What the heck Urobuchi means?" is an evidence of the awesomeness of the series.
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