Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid Manga Discussion

[4th Dimension]

Had Vivid done things properly then Sieg would have been Vivio's last challenge before getting to face off against Nanoha, since for all intents and purposes Sieg should have even more combat expirience than Nanoha, allthough most of it might be from old Belkan Civil War battlefield, the nature of which ALSO pisses me off, but that is a rant for a different time.

But since Vivid didn't do the required effort to set things up, I'm just calling the finale BS despite any last minute justifications writter might pull.
Then again I think the format of the finale will be competitors competing for right to fight Nanoha. Soo we might get to see Vivio going against veterans?

Nanoha vs Signum: Yes in primary continuity we only know of two. But, if secondary sources carry any weight, according to Movie 2nd commentary Signum vs Nanoha exibition matches happened quite a few times and Nanoha NEVER won, and in fact no longer wants to fight Signum because she considers it futile or something. Which kinda doesn't sound like her.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

But, if secondary sources carry any weight, according to Movie 2nd commentary Signum vs Nanoha exibition matches happened quite a few times and Nanoha NEVER won, and in fact no longer wants to fight Signum because she considers it futile or something.

I only listened to to it in Japanese, but I don't remember hearing that in the commentary track, I can check the translated script if I find it in my computer. Also movie 1st and movie 2nd commentary tracks and drama cds are canon, calling them secondary sources is inaccurate.

[alex_drian]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Why in the world wasn't she sent against the Huckebein? She can take down elite mages with her fists. She's clearly a pretty damn good asset.

The Huckebein are in entirely another level.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

And now I have the fun conclusion that Vivio might be able to beat Signum. Why in the world wasn't she sent against the Huckebein? She can take down elite mages with her fists. She's clearly a pretty damn good asset.

Because Force is not canon anymore?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Roxis

Because Force is not canon anymore?

I was about to rebate that but after getting to know more about REFLECTIONS plot I'm finally convinced Tsuzki buried FORCE six feet under and doesn't plan to look back.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

I only listened to to it in Japanese, but I don't remember hearing that in the commentary track, I can check the translated script if I find it in my computer. Also movie 1st and movie 2nd commentary tracks and drama cds are canon, calling them secondary sources is inaccurate.

Eh. Movie commentary is kinda of dubious main universe cannonicity considering they are happening in a AU where the characters are aware of the movie. Based just on that I would rank them along with those magazine CDs. The events in them didn't actually happen in main nor movie continuity, but character opinions expressed in them and events refferenced depict real things, or things that might have happened with no change to characters.
As for this specific thing, sometime during Movie 2nd, during downtime wolkies and Nanoha and Fate get talking about having a rematch and Signum is all for it (battle maniac) and of all Nanoha is most hesitant since she was never able to win vs Signum in one of these apparently. In the end tgey decide over Nanoha's protests to volunteer her.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I was about to rebate that but after getting to know more about REFLECTIONS plot I'm finally convinced Tsuzki buried FORCE six feet under and doesn't plan to look back.

Well it was dead for a long time, but pretty much UTTERLY dead ever since the mangaka doing it, that supposedly was just on a break to do manga retelling of TOS jumped ship after finishing that manga.
Which kinda is a shame coz, despite MASSIVE FLAWS Force had, it was more Nanoha tgan Vivid IMO.
And those designs happen when you rehire the guy who did Force designs and does mecha designs mostly (did Knights' & Magic)

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Eh. Movie commentary is kinda of dubious main universe cannonicity considering they are happening in a AU where the characters are aware of the movie. Based just on that I would rank them along with those magazine CDs. The events in them didn't actually happen in main nor movie continuity, but character opinions expressed in them and events refferenced depict real things, or things that might have happened with no change to characters.

The movies are an AU, but the movies also exist as part of the Nanoha canon as real movies based on real events (at least movie 1 and 2), in that context the movie commentary tracks fit fine with the canon. The Megami sound stages are different, those are au because they break the fourth wall and partially contradict the main canon.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Well it was dead for a long time, but pretty much UTTERLY dead ever since the mangaka doing it, that supposedly was just on a break to do manga retelling of TOS jumped ship after finishing that manga.
Which kinda is a shame coz, despite MASSIVE FLAWS Force had, it was more Nanoha tgan Vivid IMO.
And those designs happen when you rehire the guy who did Force designs and does mecha designs mostly (did Knights' & Magic)

What bugs me more is that where Force actually had a plot going for it, Vivid just seems to meander about. It started out great with ancient emperors haunted by their past, then seemed to dig into that even deeper when Vivio started experiencing flashbacks as well, and then it just... petered out and did nothing with it.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Keroko

What bugs me more is that where Force actually had a plot going for it, Vivid just seems to meander about. It started out great with ancient emperors haunted by their past, then seemed to dig into that even deeper when Vivio started experiencing flashbacks as well, and then it just... petered out and did nothing with it.

That because Vivid was meant to be side story and Force was the main story.
I was certain Tsuzuki was planning to connected Vivid to Force at some point but with unforeseen bad reception toward force. Tsuzuki probably has no choice but to reshuffle his story will all new brand story with Vivid as main story replaced Force which explain the stagnating story in Vivid because Tsuzuki has no idea how continued it.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

The movies are an AU, but the movies also exist as part of the Nanoha canon as real movies based on real events (at least movie 1 and 2), in that context the movie commentary tracks fit fine with the canon. The Megami sound stages are different, those are au because they break the fourth wall and partially contradict the main canon.

Ehh, pretty sure the movies are not a thing in the main coninuity but in a parallel one that follows the main one but has movies. Mostly to explain how NOONE raises an eyebrow at Vivio's surname and everyone acts surprised at who her mom is, not that her mom is Nanoha but that her mom is so strong as if Nanoha is an utter unknown.
And if we had to rule out every piece of content based on continuity errors we might as well rule out most of the franchise including big ones like Vivid or anime seasons. Since pretty much al of them at some point make changes to continuity.

Originally Posted by Keroko

What bugs me more is that where Force actually had a plot going for it, Vivid just seems to meander about. It started out great with ancient emperors haunted by their past, then seemed to dig into that even deeper when Vivio started experiencing flashbacks as well, and then it just... petered out and did nothing with it.

Well the idea was interesting to contrast the past with the present and possibly contrast that with the specter of chaos Hucks are bringing, but I pretty much HATED what they did tech wise to the Belkans. From a nation of star/dimensional conquerors with God damned starships, they reduced them to techno barbarians fighting on horseback with the most advanced ranged weapon in their employ being crossbows. THAT can get bent too. Oh and the whole moving Olivie's time from ~300 years ago to pretty much recent history of what 100-150 years ago.

Originally Posted by Roxis

That because Vivid was meant to be side story and Force was the main story.
I was certain Tsuzuki was planning to connected Vivid to Force at some point but with unforeseen bad reception toward force. Tsuzuki probably has no choice but to reshuffle his story will all new brand story with Vivid as main story replaced Force which explain the stagnating story in Vivid because Tsuzuki has no idea how continued it.

Well yeah Vivid was from start moe about cuteness and fanservice than anything else if the number of prepubescent girls pantyshots is anything to go by. Hell before I knew better I thought two groups were in charge of writting Nanoha and up untill post StrikerS they had to work together and keep each other in check. But after they split the cuteness/fanservice group gave us Vivid and darkness/military SciFi group made Force.

[vic-vic]

I agree, the downgrade of Belka Empire into pseuo-medieval fantasy setting irked me to no end too.

And for all it flaws I still like Force the most of all current Nanoha instalments

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Ehh, pretty sure the movies are not a thing in the main coninuity but in a parallel one that follows the main one but has movies. Mostly to explain how NOONE raises an eyebrow at Vivio's surname and everyone acts surprised at who her mom is, not that her mom is Nanoha but that her mom is so strong as if Nanoha is an utter unknown.

That's a fallacy, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Not that it matters but I think your assertion was inaccurate either way, in Vivid I'm pretty sure at least a couple of Vivio's friend knew about her and her mothers, and in Vivid Strike at least Rinne did.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

And if we had to rule out every piece of content based on continuity errors we might as well rule out most of the franchise including big ones like Vivid or anime seasons. Since pretty much al of them at some point make changes to continuity.

Small mistakes are normal in big properties like Nanoha, but if I remember correctly those sound stages have some tracks telling a completely different story about events that didn't fit with Strikers, Vivid and Force but the breaking point is that their structure breaks the fourth wall.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

in Vivid Strike at least Rinne did.

IIRC it was sort of a plot point that Rinne knew nothing about Vivio's background and just assumed things.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

IIRC it was sort of a plot point that Rinne knew nothing about Vivio's background and just assumed things.

In her fight with Vivio she says that she knows that girl's story: that "(Vivio) was raised by elite government officials", and the famous photo of Vivio with her two mothers' faces obscured by the sun is shown. I suppose you can still make the argument that Rinne didn't know who Vivio's mothers really were because their faces weren't visible in the image, the only thing we know for sure is that Fuuka was going to meet them and Vivio to eat together (from the Vivid Strike manga episode 3.5), but that has nothing to do with Nanoha and Fate having a level of fame.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

That's a fallacy, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Not that it matters but I think your assertion was inaccurate either way, in Vivid I'm pretty sure at least a couple of Vivio's friend knew about her and her mothers, and in Vivid Strike at least Rinne did.

Her friends know about her mom, mostly from what Vivio herself tells them.
Einhard, the battle maniac Einhard, that is OBSESSED with finding strong opponents and proving the strength of her style made for COMBAT, for some reason was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with who the Ace of Aces of TSAB was.
You are also factually wrong about Vivid Strike. The entire bit about her parents, was not about how good they were, but about how weak Vivio is and about how her life was all sunshine and rainbows. Among other points in her rant she remarks on how her parents are government officials and in a way one might assume she is talking about couple of pencil pushers, and not about Ace of the Navy and Ace of Aces. And this is all part and parcel of the whole spiel that Rinne side drops on how Vivio should not be fighting and how she is hopeless and such.
That does not sound AT ALL like something you might say about the parents and daughter of mages that saved worlds multiple times and have even blockbusters made about their exploits.
What it does seem to me is that they just skimmed her report. And at no point did any one of them remember who Nanoha Takamachi is.

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

Small mistakes are normal in big properties like Nanoha, but if I remember correctly those sound stages have some tracks telling a completely different story about events that didn't fit with Strikers, Vivid and Force but the breaking point is that their structure breaks the fourth wall.

Eh, that is why I say they are happening in an AU where the fourth wall breaking is the norm.
But that should not invalidate their answers. So if someone asked Nanoha in one of those CDs what is her favorite color, and like she said blue, I would pretty much assume that is the de-facto canonical favorite color of hers until it's overridden by main verse cannon.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Her friends know about her mom, mostly from what Vivio herself tells them.

We don't know that for certain, but it's also part of the main canon that Vivio's friends have watched her mothers' movie(s).

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Einhard, the battle maniac Einhard, that is OBSESSED with finding strong opponents and proving the strength of her style made for COMBAT, for some reason was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with who the Ace of Aces of TSAB was.

The Movie 1st came out in-universe during the events of Vivid, after Einhart was befriended, but even if that wasn't the case your argument is still constructed as a fallacy.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

You are also factually wrong about Vivid Strike. The entire bit about her parents, was not about how good they were, but about how weak Vivio is and about how her life was all sunshine and rainbows. Among other points in her rant she remarks on how her parents are government officials and in a way one might assume she is talking about couple of pencil pushers, and not about Ace of the Navy and Ace of Aces.

A lot of that are assumptions, and is a valid interpretation, but I don't think you have the evidence to call your assertion a fact and call other people "factually wrong", and again the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so this argument will get us nowhere if your intention is to prove that nobody watched the movies in-universe (outside of the Drama CDs, the commentary tracks and Vivid Life).
Leaving that aside, I think it's very likely public knowledge that many top military officers are S+ ranked mages, many events have involved them in public areas, I don't think most citizens of Mid Childa think of them as pencil pushers.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

We don't know that for certain, but it's also part of the main canon that Vivio's friends have watched her mothers' movie(s).

No, it's not. Given that the same is referenced nowhere back in the Vivid proper, and above mentioned seemingly UTTER ignorance on the part of characters on who Vivio's mom really is, its cannonicity in the terms of being part of the main verse is highly suspect.

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

The Movie 1st came out in-universe during the events of Vivid, after Einhart was befriended, but even if that wasn't the case your argument is still constructed as a fallacy.

The movie shouldn't even enter into the Einhard's obliviousness, since even without a movie one might expect her to be interested in facing strong combatants, and where might one find them? Among amateur sportsists like Nove is at start of Vivid? Orrr among actual combat veterans of TSAB. Sane person would assume the later. Yet despite it all we find her stalking at that time person of not much importance, Nove.

Originally Posted by NiwaDaisuke

A lot of that are assumptions, and is a valid interpretation, but I don't think you have the evidence to call your assertion a fact and call other people "factually wrong", and again the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence so this argument will get us nowhere if your intention is to prove that nobody watched the movies in-universe (outside of the Drama CDs, the commentary tracks and Vivid Life).
Leaving that aside, I think it's very likely public knowledge that many top military officers are S+ ranked mages, many events have involved them in public areas, I don't think most citizens of Mid Childa think of them as pencil pushers.

And yet people one might assume are most likely to be interested in it, DO consider them just random public officials of no consequence and hence think of Vivio as just another kid, and not Kid of the Ace of Aces and kid of the major member of the TSAB instructor corps.
Hell she could be physically terrible at anything, and just that fact alone would make her someone to at least pay some attention to. But no, she is just some kid from some government officials who don't even get the courtesy of being shown faces of, since they are seemingly so irrelevant.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

No, it's not. Given that the same is referenced nowhere back in the Vivid proper. Given that the same is referenced nowhere back in the Vivid proper

Sorry but I believe what you're suggesting is arbitrary and not very reasonable. Cross references are not a requirement for events in a story to be considered a part of its narrative or to be canon, regardless of the official work they come from. If you still stand by that last statement I'll ask you to give sources that support the premise of "multi work series need to cross reference (all the plot points) to belong to the same canon/universe".

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

and above mentioned seemingly UTTER ignorance on the part of characters on who Vivio's mom really is, its cannonicity in the terms of being part of the main verse is highly suspect.

The movie shouldn't even enter into the Einhard's obliviousness, since even without a movie one might expect her to be interested in facing strong combatants, and where might one find them? Among amateur sportsists like Nove is at start of Vivid? Orrr among actual combat veterans of TSAB. Sane person would assume the later. Yet despite it all we find her stalking at that time person of not much importance, Nove.

You're using the same faulty argument again, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you don't know how arguments and fallacies work you can search in Google for some free resources. Not trying to be offensive, I just want to help.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

And yet people one might assume are most likely to be interested in it, DO consider them just random public officials of no consequence and hence think of Vivio as just another kid, and not Kid of the Ace of Aces and kid of the major member of the TSAB instructor corps.

That's a generalization. We know both of friends of Vivio that know who she and her mothers are and of friends who don't. We also still know for certain that some of her friends watched the movies in the main canon, which was the initial argument that still hasn't been proven wrong.

[4th Dimension]

PrimeSonic - Today at 9:01 PM
Our usual artists are pressed for time in the coming days (weeks).
We need extra help on redraws (the hardest part of the process).
Think you might be able to track down some people capable and interested in working in Nanoha ViVid?
You're more active in the community than I am. :sweat_smile:

VividTranslation will need some help with the redrawing of the pages.
So anyone willing to help can contact them either at their discord or via the site.

[Random Wanderer]

Just caught up on this, after having not read it for the better part of a year. My conclusion remains much the same: this series feels like it lost its way after the Infinity Library arc and Vivio/Einhart's fight afterwards. Up until then it felt like it worked, at least for me, but afterwards it just felt like it lost its focus, and just flailed around, tossing in random ideas that the author thought were cool without much thought for plot coherence.