All Spoilers OK F/SN UBW TV - Episode 3 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

I wonder why Archer never tried to kill Illya? If he could save Rin, then he should have been able to hit Illya as well since she was standing just a few metres in front of Rin.

Archer has no intention to hurt Ilya.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Before talking about Shirou, you guys should admit that ufotable did a great job on altering his character, and pretty much on other characters like Taiga too. Noticed that he's not holding an idiot ball like he did in DEEN version, as he seemed more instinctive than before.

I think it's not just a better portrayal by ufotable, Nasu wrote Shirou as a more reasonable character in UBW in general.

[BloodyKitty]

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

I wonder why Archer never tried to kill Illya? If he could save Rin, then he should have been able to hit Illya as well since she was standing just a few metres in front of Rin.

He said he couldn't sense other Masters beside Rin very well (though there is reason to doubt whatever he says at some points this time).

Also he would never want to hurt Illya. His past says everything.

[ninja_pintu]

Originally Posted by BloodyKitty

He said he couldn't sense other Masters beside Rin very well (though there is reason to doubt whatever he says at some points this time).

Also he would never want to hurt Illya. His past says everything.

Not sensing her is not an excuse. He knew Illya was attacking Rin so at the very least he could have bombarded Rin's surroundings with arrows.

His past could be the reason but does he remember everything at this point?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

Not sensing her is not an excuse. He knew Illya was attacking Rin so at the very least he could have bombarded Rin's surroundings with arrows.

His past could be the reason but does he remember everything at this point?

He has lost parts of his memory, but he definitely remembers Rin, Saber and Ilya (although everything about Rin came back when she introduced herself). Of course he remembers Kiritsugu and how he saved him from the fire, too. He knew from the beginning where and who he was, he simply lied to Rin.

[Kanon]

That was really amazing. Berserker's fighting style was depicted correctly for the first time. He might be a giant mass of muscle, but he's still incredibly agile (A rank in fact). That was never really conveyed in DEEN's adaptations.

Archer shooting Caladbolg 2 was marvelously animated. I know many people dislike the overuse of special effects, but I love them. Makes everything look much more impressive. And that explosion, holy shit. A shame the anime made it look like Berserker wasn't even scratched when this has most definitely taken one of his life. It made it look like this was all show. They should have used this scene to portray God Hand, instead of using Saber to do so.

The Rin and Illya original scene was great. After ten long years, we finally get to see what Illya's magic is like. We were told she had an incredible number of magic circuits but she never used them other than to command Berserker, so she never seemed like that much of a threat on her own. Now we know she's a truly deadly loli. Having her use the same magic as her mother is a nice touch.

Kirei and Gil's scene was cool too. To me, it made it clear that this adaptation isn't meant for total newbies. You need to have watched Zero or Fate to get the most of it. Otherwise, this scene casually spoils Kirei is the main villain.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Before talking about Shirou, you guys should admit that ufotable did a great job on altering his character, and pretty much on other characters like Taiga too. Noticed that he's not holding an idiot ball like he did in DEEN version, as he seemed more instinctive than before

Honestly, this was the best thing about the episode. I have seen Shirou haters convert in this one. Probably because Shirou was actively made to understand he is of no help at the moment (Heck, Rin says "the three of us" not counting Shirou and I liked that) while not overbearing it to make him like a real unlikable character. The body language, and the directing emphasized his weakness. Then instead of moaning about it for a while, he picks himself up regardless and heads straight. He is given a legitimate reason of being a broken person due to the fire and overpraising Kiritsugu rather than his default personality being a whinny little teen or "girls can't fight". Heck, he's not even given a superpower that's normally granted on the protag's first fight. All what he did was sense Archer's backstabbing attack and haphazardly warn Saber by running up to her rather than calling to her because he has no sense of self.

All that, fixes the notion of Shirou being a shit protagonist. All what was needed was careful use of his character. Sasuga ufotable.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Kirei and Gil's scene was cool too. To me, it made it clear that this adaptation isn't meant for total newbies. You need to have watched Zero or Fate to get the most of it. Otherwise, this scene casually spoils Kirei is the main villain.

I wouldn't say that it spelt everything out. Just that there was something more sinister to Kirei than meets the eye. And plus Rin and Saber had already given out unfriendly vibes to Kirei in the previous episodes, so nothing new in this episode other than more hinting in that direction.

Fate/Zero people will be able to know what's going on, but to inexperience F/Z watchers they still won't know anything about these characters. They havn't spelt what the connections are between Gil and Kirei yet. They havn't even properly intro'd Gil yet either nor do they know the entire history behind Kirei.

There's no way any first time viewers will be able to make any concrete deductions, so in that sense the big mystery/bombshell is still in tact.

Not everything needs to be understood straight away. Otherwise foreshadowing wouldn't be a thing.

[ththth13]

The fight was awesome, especially when you compare it at the old one made by Deen. There the might of the servants was left to your imagination and hype from characters, but here you can actually see their strengh. 'Heroes' in that version were mostly disappointment, but here you can see they really deserve their title of hero.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by BloodyKitty

He said he couldn't sense other Masters beside Rin very well (though there is reason to doubt whatever he says at some points this time).

Also he would never want to hurt Illya. His past says everything.

Then, thinking the other way around...why isn't Ilya worried about being killed by Archer? Does she know about him somehow, or is she really confident in her magic?

I guess it's possible that she knows a Tohsaka magus to fight chivalrously...?

[Random14]

Would a Tohsaka mage fight chivalrously? Rin is far less amoral than most mages, though she tries not to show that side of herself, but her father wasn't exactly honorable. Not a monster like Kirei, but still far less fair than Rin, who basically grew up on her own. Well, and partially raised by Kotomine, but she can barely stand him, so he's not really a role model.

I'm only vaguely familiar with Fate and UBW, from glancing through wiki, tropes and the Deen movie/compilation, but that last attack with the Broken Phantasm was meant to kill Shiro too, right? And it did take out one of Berserker's lives? In this episode it looked like it didn't work at all, but with all the smoke, hard to tell if Berserker just regenerated really fast.

Another great episode, nice to see Rin try to get around the unstoppable Berserker by attacking Illya, only for that to fail too. So that scene was anime original? I figured that Archer would have been sniping Berserker in between attacks by Saber rather than helping Rin.

Though I can see Archer not attacking Illya directly, in other routes Shiro ends up close with Illya, but she never lasts long, even if she does survive the Grail War, so Archer retains that sentiment for her.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by brocko

I wouldn't say that it spelt everything out. Just that there was something more sinister to Kirei than meets the eye. And plus Rin and Saber had already given out unfriendly vibes to Kirei in the previous episodes, so nothing new in this episode other than more hinting in that direction.

Fate/Zero people will be able to know what's going on, but to inexperience F/Z watchers they still won't know anything about these characters. They havn't spelt what the connections are between Gil and Kirei yet. They havn't even properly intro'd Gil yet either nor do they know the entire history behind Kirei.

There's no way any first time viewers will be able to make any concrete deductions, so in that sense the big mystery/bombshell is still in tact.

Not everything needs to be understood straight away. Otherwise foreshadowing wouldn't be a thing.

The connection between Gil and Kirei is still unclear, but this scene is more than enough to tell Kirei is evil. Of course, it's not like he was ever portrayed as a good guy to begin with, but he seemed much more ambiguous at first. His smile alone says everything you need to know here.

More importantly, this scene clearly wasn't added to provide more foreshadowing IMO. Their conversation is a follow-up to Fate/Zero. It felt like it came right out of it. I really hope we'll get more Kirei x Gil moments, because they were my favorite parts of Zero. I always found it lame they almost never interacted together in F/SN despite hanging together for ten years.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Probably because Berserker could've easily blocked any attempt, just like we saw Saber easily block that Berserker's attempt on Shirou's life.

I don't think he could, he was too busy with and distracted by Saber.

In fact, I think the whole reason Illya left was because she realized Archer could easily kill her from afar with one of his nukes. That's why she never steps outside her castle anymore in UBW, unlike in Fate and HF, where she often makes trips to the city by herself.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Then, thinking the other way around...why isn't Ilya worried about being killed by Archer? Does she know about him somehow, or is she really confident in her magic?

Why do you think she said she was impressed by him and left immediately after seeing what destruction he was capable of? I think that's a sign that she did become very much worried about being killed by Archer (especially since he showed no regard for the safety of Shirou and Saber who had appeared to be his allies).

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Because for her, it's personal. She doesn't know the full story of the Fourth Grail War, and only sees Shirou as the boy her father abandoned her for. She's very, very upset and bitter and wants him dead as a result. I dunno if it'll be explored in this anime--IIRC it's not a subject that comes up in UBW, given what happens to Ilya, but given the new scenes we're supposed to get of her...

I would say that while outwardly Illya may want to kill Shirou, deep down she wants to bond with him, only Acht's brainwashing of her to make her hate Kiritsugu makes her act out that desire in a twisted manner. But IIRC she rarely outright kills him in bad ends in the VN, and generally tries to keep him around somehow, even if also in a twisted manner like turning him into one of her dolls or whatever.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Before talking about Shirou, you guys should admit that ufotable did a great job on altering his character, and pretty much on other characters like Taiga too. Noticed that he's not holding an idiot ball like he did in DEEN version, as he seemed more instinctive than before.

I wouldn't say they're altering his character so much as they're accurately portraying him as he is in the original. DEEN just failed to do that (although they did have the disadvantage of Fate Shirou being worse than UBW Shirou).

Originally Posted by Kanon

That was really amazing. Berserker's fighting style was depicted correctly for the first time. He might be a giant mass of muscle, but he's still incredibly agile (A rank in fact). That was never really conveyed in DEEN's adaptations.

Yeah, that was nice, but I was very much surprised by the whole "he can still fight perfectly skilfully despite being a Berserker!" I really don't remember that from the VN, and more importantly I thought that was supposed to be Zero Berserker's thing: "Eternal Arms Mastership - Flawless display of fighting skills is possible despite mental hindrance."

I don't recall this Berserker having a similar ability at all (in fact I often hear people say how he would have been so much stronger under a different Servant class), so maybe Nasu just liked what Urobuchi gave Lancelot and decided what the hell let's give it to Herakles as well?

Originally Posted by Kanon

Archer shooting Caladbolg 2 was marvelously animated. I know many people dislike the overuse of special effects, but I love them. Makes everything look much more impressive. And that explosion, holy shit. A shame the anime made it look like Berserker wasn't even scratched when this has most definitely taken one of his life. It made it look like this was all show. They should have used this scene to portray God Hand, instead of using Saber to do so.

Yeah, that was the only thing that was a bit disappointing about the fight. They made such a big deal out of the shooting sequence and made it look so awesome and powerful, but then they show Berserker perfectly unfazed immediately after Archer's grin. It would have been nice if they had at least showed him regenerating (maybe they will in the BDs? I certainly hope so).

Originally Posted by Random14

I'm only vaguely familiar with Fate and UBW, from glancing through wiki, tropes and the Deen movie/compilation, but that last attack with the Broken Phantasm was meant to kill Shiro too, right?

Yes. In fact I'm pretty sure that was the reason for Archer's grin. It wasn't about the damage he did Berserker, but rather that he almost got Shirou and made him piss in his pants a little.

Originally Posted by Kanon

More importantly, this scene clearly wasn't added to provide more foreshadowing IMO. Their conversation is a follow-up to Fate/Zero. It felt like it came right out of it. I really hope we'll get more Kirei x Gil moments, because they were my favorite parts of Zero. I always found it lame they almost never interacted together in F/SN despite hanging together for ten years.

Same, but while I was excited to see them together in a new scene, their interaction in this episode turned out to be not terribly interesting IMO. Other than a bit of vague foreshadowing, it didn't seem to have much of a point to be honest, and felt more like fanservice to Zero fans (also why is Kirei reading scriptures aloud to himself at two in the morning? ). Still, I'll take what I can get.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I don't think he could, he was too busy with and distracted by Saber.

In fact, I think the whole reason Illya left was because she realized Archer could easily kill her from afar with one of his nukes. That's why she never steps outside her castle anymore in UBW, unlike in Fate and HF, where she often makes trips to the city by herself.

Doesn't she have a Super Command Spell though? I wouldn't put it past it to be able to command Berserker to protect her the moment she feels something was going to snipe her.

[Lorhand]

Retroactively giving Herakles an Eternal Arms Mastership like skill makes in my opinion sense, when you already say that he can be summoned into any other class besides Assassin and Caster.

[Fellen]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Doesn't she have a Super Command Spell though? I wouldn't put it past it to be able to command Berserker to protect her the moment she feels something was going to snipe her.

I don't think it's a good idea to waste it when using it could be avoided.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Doesn't she have a Super Command Spell though? I wouldn't put it past it to be able to command Berserker to protect her the moment she feels something was going to snipe her.

Who says she'd have time to sense it and react? She seemed caught off guard enough when he used his arrows to deflect her attacks on Rin.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Fellen

I don't think it's a good idea to waste it when using it could be avoided.

Is wasting it really a problem for her? She seems to have more than three spells and more than Kirei in FZ.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Who says she'd have time to sense it and react? She seemed caught off guard enough when he used his arrows to deflect her attacks on Rin.

I think it would be easier for a magician to sense something coming at her than something coming at an alchemical bird away from her.

In general, Illya is not worried about a Servant attacking her. It is not just Archer: Rider, Lancer, Saber, Caster and especially Assassin (does she even know that this one can't move from the Temple?) could all theoretically ambush her and kill her before Berserker has time to come or for her to summon him. Yet, she walks around Fuyuki without a care in the world and I don't buy that she honestly thinks that all Masters would follow the rules and not attack the master of such an OP Servant in the daylight.
Something DOES keep her safe.

[JZangetsu]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I don't recall this Berserker having a similar ability at all (in fact I often hear people say how he would have been so much stronger under a different Servant class), so maybe Nasu just liked what Urobuchi gave Lancelot and decided what the hell let's give it to Herakles as well?
.

Its because Berserker mastered various types of combat, yes, its similar to Eternal Arms Mastership, but this is not a skill, its rather something to do with his Heroic Spirit itself, that was a master regards combat, as he is the hero of heroes.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

I think it would be easier for a magician to sense something coming at her than something coming at an alchemical bird away from her.

The birds are basically parts of herself (they're made from her hair, for Christ's sake) and they were like 3 feet away from her:

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And her reaction clearly showed she did not see Archer's attacks coming at all:

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Originally Posted by Nayrael

In general, Illya is not worried about a Servant attacking her. It is not just Archer: Rider, Lancer, Saber, Caster and especially Assassin (does she even know that this one can't move from the Temple?) could all theoretically ambush her and kill her before Berserker has time to come or for her to summon him.

We don't even see her and Berserker fight any of those Servants, except for Saber who is obviously the chivalrous type and would never go for underhanded tactics such as ambushing like Archer, so we don't know how careful she may or may have not been while facing them.

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Yet, she walks around Fuyuki without a care in the world.

She's confident in her abilities (and her Servant's), just like Rin who still merrily goes to school when the war's already started. But I think it's clear the threat of Archer unsettled her, which is why she goes hikikomori in this route and never leaves the castle, unlike in Fate and HF where she's constantly strolling around town. That can't have been a mere coincidence.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The connection between Gil and Kirei is still unclear, but this scene is more than enough to tell Kirei is evil. Of course, it's not like he was ever portrayed as a good guy to begin with, but he seemed much more ambiguous at first. His smile alone says everything you need to know here.

The smile can mean many things. Those who've seen F/Z may have a better understanding behind it, but those that havn't have only what's been shown and said so far to go off (i.e. he feels happy as though he's been reunited with an old acquaintance, or the fact that the grail war is under-way again, or whatever else that may've been suggested).

Originally Posted by Kanon

More importantly, this scene clearly wasn't added to provide more foreshadowing IMO. Their conversation is a follow-up to Fate/Zero. It felt like it came right out of it. I really hope we'll get more Kirei x Gil moments, because they were my favorite parts of Zero. I always found it lame they almost never interacted together in F/SN despite hanging together for ten years.

It goes both ways. To people who've seen F/Z, it's a continuation like you said. To those that havn't, it's foreshadowing since it can't really continue off anything because they have no prior knowledge for it to do so. They pretty much have no idea what the conversation is really about, so it's just more guessing for them.