2010-07-22, 17:59 | Link #8341 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
You infer way to much...
Do yourself a favor and just read what people write rather than trying to read their minds. You aren't very good at it. Not many people are. As far as me saying a lot of things not understanding nuances of the times....umm I don't say much of anything around here... so what are you talking about?
__________________
|
2010-07-22, 18:04 | Link #8342 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-22, 18:18 | Link #8343 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
That's why I said you should just read what I wrote and stop trying to infer things.
I never said the entire North was against slavery. If you have read any of the personal writings of many of the founding fathers (most being from the north, which is what I was talking about when I said Northern politicians) you would see a great deal of them had personal moral qualms against the idea of slavery. I was never talking about Lincoln or any other mid 1800's politician. It's so hard to speak with you because you are always trying to infer some cynical slight. You think I was calling you smarmy when in fact I was referencing the general population of internet readers who make comments on American history without even trying to gain context. Inferred insult. That said. I should probably make a change in my original post in that I made it seem like the 3/5's issue isn't debatable, because it certainly still is, in that we can never truly know for what reason it was put in there. There is evidence to support an optimistic viewpoint about some of our founding fathers, I mainly just wanted to put that out there. Your cynical outlook is certainly not illogical but considering it is the commonly held belief by many I always wish that both sides could be presented.
__________________
|
2010-07-22, 18:23 | Link #8344 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-22, 18:32 | Link #8345 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Nosauz is correct, the 3/5 compromise was simply put as is because the North didn't want the South to hold so much power and the South wanted more... It did not slow down slavery whatsoever. And btw, the North didn't even like African Americans either, and not even that much when the civil war began.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-22, 18:34 | Link #8346 | |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
Let me ask you to consider this, and this is the last time I'll post on this subject unless you really come up with something good (and please don't infer that to mean I think you should be trying to impress me because I'm superior or something (oops there I go trying to read your mind)) or a new thread is started. Do you think that things would have been better, worse, or not much different if slave states were allowed to claim their slaves as citizens?
It seems to me it's not impossible to envision slaves being granted the right to vote only that vote being the actual property of the slave owner. Instead of one vote to a slave owner try that type of person able to bring hundreds or more votes to the table. Are you at all able to consider where that might have led things? Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-22, 18:44 | Link #8347 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
If Southerners had given slaves citizenship and suffrage slavery would have ended much earlier, you'd see the power shift between the North and South invert when the Southerners removed tarrifs between England and Europe but eventually much like the civil rights movement this temporary power grab would result in the Northerners organizing slaves to vote for their independence. Also eventually the dissonance between slave citizens would grow so strong that it would naturally have to either create an amendment that said coloreds were consider men or all men in the constitution only refers to whites which is another possiblity that could have lengthened slavery. In the end the notion that just because something limited Congressional power of the South does not make it beneficial for the slaves. Your whole argument has no basis in facts or reality. @toopurepureboy How is not possible to see that the Founders were flawed beings like you and me. They weren't even close to Jesus yet people seemed to have a harder time criticizing the Founders than they do Jesus. Jefferson had slaves, does it make me respect him less? Not really the fact was Slavery was a way of life during that time, it was a god given truth that White's were superior to blacks, and that Blacks had inherited the curse of Ham. I mean that's just the way the times were, let's not elevate these men of flesh to some super deity power which they did not possess. I mean you basically are saying that although the fathers themselves owned slaves they crafted a 3/5th's compromise out of their love for their slaves as citizens? All this is is apologist talk and unwilling to recognize the conventional wisdom of the times. |
|
2010-07-22, 18:45 | Link #8348 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
|
Quote:
Slaves never could "vote." They were simply counted as bodies for a state's population. This way, the South held much more power in congress, since they had more representatives in the house. If they were counted as full bodies, this wouldn't change. They'd just have even more people in the house, which would have aggravated the North and probably would have led both sides to war even sooner (Assuming that the two sides would have miraculously agreed to come together to form the union in the first place). And it would've been even worst if the slave's votes were given to the Southern plantation owners (Which would have never flied in the first place. In the end, it would have been worst, and if such a war was fought earlier, it could've ended up much worst.... The south's power diddled as time went on, if they fought the North earlier, before all the industrialization took place... The south could have won. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Reckoner; 2010-07-22 at 18:56. |
||
2010-07-22, 18:47 | Link #8349 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
|
I think you've misinterpreted the motive behind the North not liking the 3/5th's compromise. Most people in the North didn't really care about the state that Southern slaves were in. In many cases they had the same racist views about blacks that the South did.
It was simply a matter that the South gained more political power by owning a large amount of a certain kind of property. When Northerners questioned why they couldn't count their donkey's for representative purposes, they were likely not entirely being facetious. That's such a huge departure from the original timeline that it's really hard to say. That kind of thing could effect so many different things. Things would have been more difficult for the North, since the South would be even more disproportionately powerful politically than they were. |
2010-07-22, 19:02 | Link #8350 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
I'm not going to keep this going in this thread. If a new thread starts I will try to untie some of the knots people seem to be tying my words into. Since he is new to the conversation I will just say this.
@Roger Rambo To your first part; I know this was how it was presented but there is evidence in the personal writings of more than a few founding fathers that morality also played a part in the 3/5's clause. This is not my personal idea this is a debated position in historical study....at least it was to the Proff I had back when I was in college and cared about history. Once again I never claimed normal norther citizens "cared" one way or the other about slaves. They didn't write the 3/5's clause. To your second part....I'm sure that had a lot to do with it but there is also evidence that morality mattered to some early politicians. It's not proof, but I thought it an interesting enough point to bring up that I actually made a few posts (huzzah). I'm not married to this concept or anything but I think it's silly for people to claim there is only one side to this story. @Reckoner I'm not here to debate or prove anything to you I was merely pointing out to whoever happens to have read my post that there is another side to the story of the 3/5's clause. Also it is certainly not accepted that the 3/5's clause is an accurate way to infer the morality of the founding fathers...which was kinda my point. It's not an important subject, i'm not some nut about the founding fathers despite one of them being in my sig. It's actually my least favorite area of study. I just happened to recall discussing it in some of the required American studies courses I had to take. I always thought it was an interesting point about how things can be misconstrued over time and accepted by the majority.
__________________
|
2010-07-22, 19:13 | Link #8351 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Hypocrisy thine name is Toopurepureboy. |
|
2010-07-22, 19:21 | Link #8352 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
Seriously, why are you so incapable of discussing rationally. I never said facts. I said things "can" be misconstrued not were. I never claimed any belief in facts. Belief takes faith, and I have none. Especially when it comes to the morals and intentions of men who lived hundreds of years ago. If you really are this heated over the subject why not do a google search for some of the personal writings of some of those men instead of calling me a hypocrite. I still don't even think you ever even got my original point.
__________________
|
2010-07-22, 19:32 | Link #8353 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Actually this is the reason why we can't talk about race in this country, we are too deathly afraid to admit that people of the past are flawed and make mistakes. Look at the South Carolina politicians calling for Confederate Veterans month with out referring to slavery at all. If we were honest about the past and the current racial tensions there would be a lot less of this denialist bullshit. Last edited by Nosauz; 2010-07-22 at 19:48. |
|
2010-07-22, 19:36 | Link #8354 | ||
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
Quote:
Your constant need to take a hard line stance on everything stops you from actually getting my point almost every time. Not sure what this is about. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by TooPurePureBoy; 2010-07-22 at 19:48. |
||
2010-07-22, 19:41 | Link #8355 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-07-22, 19:58 | Link #8356 | |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
|
Quote:
P.S. I "better" back it up ? Get over yourself.
__________________
|
|
2010-07-22, 20:08 | Link #8357 |
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 36
|
Nobody reads the astrology thread anymore, so I guess I'll post this here:
Most Massive Star Discovered—Shatters Record This hyper giant star, R136a1, or perhaps an entirely new class of star, is 265- 320 times the mass of our sun, which is around 100 more solar masses than previously known heaviest stars. Its not confirmed whether its the largest star by volume yet though, it will have to beat Canis Majoris which is around 2000 times larger than our sun in volume, but only 40 solar masses.
__________________
|
2010-07-22, 20:39 | Link #8358 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-22, 20:58 | Link #8359 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-07-22, 21:39 | Link #8360 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Hypocrisy thine name is TooPurePureBoy. |
|
Tags |
current affairs, discussion, international |
|
|