Missing and Hunter Ninjas

[Yakushi-san]

Good thing it was Jiraiya that went after Oro... He's the peeping Jutsu's master.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Konoha didn't even know that the Sound was under Oro's command and they had no idea of the location of Itachi either.

true

They just didn't know where they were except for Jiraiya who was following Oro.And 5 ninjas mean absolutely nothing against this kind of opponent, just look at what the they could do during the war against the kind of gigantic snakes that Oro can summon easily or how the fight turned in few second for Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi whereas Itachi didn't even seem to try and just wanted to leave because they weren't here to be wounded.

Perhaps I was unclear,
First of all, during episode 81-82 Kisame was involved wich means they could not concentrate on Itachi alone. I'm talking about 5 jounins or so vs. Itachi.
Secondly, If we take Gai, Kakashi, Kurenai, Asuma and Shizune you could say you have Konoha's best right?
now take these jounin who are informed about his ability(experieced it first hand)
set up a nice ambush, train them to fight against Sharingan users and it would't be impossible to think Itachi loses.

The 81-82 fight had a lot of factors involved, 3 jounins not 5 and Kisame was involved.

Note that things would be entirely different if they didn't have any information beforehand (so before episode 81-82)

Sure they could launch a really huge amount of Jounin on their trails to hunt them down hoping that some of them would return alive.
And they could also forget to have clients given that they wouldn't have enough Jounins to accomplish missions anymore.

I fully agree, I don't see how that missed my post since im pretty sure I typed it but remember im just talking if's here . Offcourse it would be silly to sends the village's top jounins on a potential suicide mission.

[Nine Devil]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

The Itachi case doens't make sense to me either. I fully agree with The small one.
Sure Itachi is on of the strongest ninja's at the moment. but with 5 jounin's or so and a good plan of attack even he would crumble.

No, he won't

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Nine Devil

No, he won't

I can see this becoming a nice discussion, try to put up some arguments sherlock.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

Perhaps I was unclear,
First of all, during episode 81-82 Kisame was involved wich means they could not concentrate on Itachi alone. I'm talking about 5 jounins or so vs. Itachi.
Secondly, If we take Gai, Kakashi, Kurenai, Asuma and Shizune you could say you have Konoha's best right?
now take these jounin who are informed about his ability(experieced it first hand)
set up a nice ambush, train them to fight against Sharingan users and it would't be impossible to think Itachi loses.

The 81-82 fight had a lot of factors involved, 3 jounins not 5 and Kisame was involved.

No you were clear enough, it's just that Kisame's actions weren't determinant at all.
At the point Gai arrived saying that reinforcements were coming in the way, Asuma and Kurenai were simply defenceless because of Itachi, unable to open their eyes and wondering what was going on and what they could do.

Fighting without looking at all at the eyes of the opponent isn't as simple than you seem to think and by whatever way.
Zabuza could do that because he was the specialist of silent killing, able to fight while closing his eyes, Gai can fight while looking at the feet only because he trained specificaly for that as the rival of Kakashi during years.
As Asuma said, Gai is probably the only one who can do that because he's the best Taijutsu specialist we have seen so far.

To develop a capacity to fight an opponent without looking at his eyes isn't something that you can learn like that just because you want to, as Zabuza and Gai you need to be a huge specialist in your field and this field must be related to this kind of fighting.
Kurenai is basically useless, the Sharingan at the level of Itachi is simply the worst match for her Genjutsy abilities.
Shizune may be good but she's nowhere the level of Kakashi/Gai/Kabuto for exemple, she didn't show anything which could worry Itachi.
From Asuma own words, he's not good enough in Taijutsu to fight as Gai while close combat seems to be his main style.
You saw what happened to Kakashi, he's without a doubt among the strongest Jounin of Konoha and was praised... to be able to survive against Itachi during what? 30s? In fact without the chit-chat during barely 10s.

And even without the Sharingan special Genjutsu, it remains all the jutsu (without speaking of the mysterious Amaterasu) and strength of Itachi.
Let's not forget also that Itachi is supposed to have slaughtered the Uchiha clan, ie way more than 5 ninjas even if Jounins level ninjas are obviously something rare and that should be the case too even among the famous Uchiha clan.

And that's basically the same with the Sannin, the 3rd or the Kage in general.

Besides I would say that even in the worst case, these kind of ninja seems to be able to flee whenever they want from their opponents

I fully agree, I don't see how that missed my post since im pretty sure I typed it but remember im just talking if's here . Offcourse it would be silly to sends the village's top jounins on a potential suicide mission.

If is the only word longer than a thousand sentences and yours is a pretty big if

[UchihaNick]

any ninja can be taken down; remember itachi can only use his special abilitys about 3 times a day tops ( he said this himself ) so keep them coming and he's done for. gai could easily keep up with him with speed and strength ( if not own him ) so thats itachi

then we have kisame; well.. up until now i think he's weak; look at what asuma was able to do all by himself ( alright surprised him; nonetheless he wounded him; would those hand weapons be poisoned kisame would have been dead )

as for oro.. kurenai; with her genjutsu skills she would be able to freak him of and then kakashi with his sharingan to see through it all ( and being able to foresee things ) and then finally the hyuuga master; hizashji ( or the other one ) with the kaiten kenbu he's practically invincible.

as for the one who said oro is capable of taking konoha down on his own.. newey. oro's "army" can do the job; what he meant was if oro would have been defeated the army would be like DAMN there goes our great leader ! let's get our asses out of here before we'd be killed as well!

anyways; everyone can be taken down; some kid in my class said it to me. ( he doesnt even watch naruto ) "just react good to the opponents mistakes; perhaps there arent much but it can be done" and with that i give him creds ( after typing this reply i understood him ) ; strength is not all that great; one kunai hitting your neck its over; dont forget they are all humans! ( alright gaara would be harder LoL )

meh done

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No you were clear enough, it's just that Kisame's actions weren't determinant at all.
At the point Gai arrived saying that reinforcements were coming in the way, Asuma and Kurenai were simply defenceless because of Itachi, unable to open their eyes and wondering what was going on and what they could do.

Kisame was certainly a factor. He attacked first and made Asuma focus on him. Secondly he made Kakashi focus on him because Kakashi had to stop the suikodan.
Regardless that Asume and Kurenai would have been owned beyond recognition Kisame DID make things harder. You should know that.

Fighting without looking at all at the eyes of the opponent isn't as simple than you seem to think and by whatever way.
Zabuza could do that because he was the specialist of silent killing, able to fight while closing his eyes, Gai can fight while looking at the feet only because he trained specificaly for that as the rival of Kakashi during years.
As Asuma said, Gai is probably the only one who can do that because he's the best Taijutsu specialist we have seen so far.

To develop a capacity to fight an opponent without looking at his eyes isn't something that you can learn like that just because you want to, as Zabuza and Gai you need to be a huge specialist in your field and this field must be related to this kind of fighting.
Kurenai is basically useless, the Sharingan at the level of Itachi is simply the worst match for her Genjutsy abilities.
Shizune may be good but she's nowhere the level of Kakashi/Gai/Kabuto for exemple, she didn't show anything which could worry Itachi.
From Asuma own words, he's not good enough in Taijutsu to fight as Gai while close combat seems to be his main style.
You saw what happened to Kakashi, he's without a doubt among the strongest Jounin of Konoha and was praised... to be able to survive against Itachi during what? 30s? In fact without the chit-chat during barely 10s.

All true all true, but just picture 5 jounin's. Like i said, with a plan of attack, an ambush or whatever things start out way different. Hey may be fast he may be strong but 5 opponents it's always hard. Gai and Asuma could be using Taijutsu on him with Kakashi and kurenai using ninpou and Shizuno using whatever(she's a healer thank god) He'd have to think quite fast to be able to counter 5 consecutive attacks. And in case of an ambush it's even harder. Traps could be layed out summons could be everywhere. It's a lot to cope with for just one guy. Im sure you can get you imagination flowing on this.

And even without the Sharingan special Genjutsu, it remains all the jutsu (without speaking of the mysterious Amaterasu) and strength of Itachi.
Let's not forget also that Itachi is supposed to have slaughtered the Uchiha clan, ie way more than 5 ninjas.

Spoiler:

You don't seriously suppose that was a fair and square fight do you? He murdered his familiy/clan members during the night. It's not like they were expecting to get slaughtered that night and were all geared up and bit the dust in a incredible powershowdown by itachi.

Altho he did say he wanted to "measure his capacity" , the way his father and mother were lying on top of each other makes me think otherwise. more like they were suprised and he tried to protect her...

You're free to disagree tho

even if Jounins level ninjas are obviously something rare and that should be the case too even among the famous Uchiha clan
And that's basically the same with the Sannin, the 3rd or the Kage in general.

Im not sure Im following you. care to elaborate?

Besides I would say that even in the worst case, these kind of ninja seems to be able to flee whenever they want from their opponents

That always get's my goose. Oro just sunk into the ground and Kabuto and Kakashi poof away on multiple occasions. I'd be pretty fucking strange they can use Instant teleportation and don't use it in a ninja battle.

They could learn from Goku tbh

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by UchihaNick

any ninja can be taken down; remember itachi can only use his special abilitys about 3 times a day tops ( he said this himself ) so keep them coming and he's done for. gai could easily keep up with him with speed and strength ( if not own him ) so thats itachi

Gai's speed and Taijutsu skills make him "only" the equal of Kakashi whereas Itachi is simply way better than Kakashi in every regard.

Besides and even with the very few jutsu we saw from Itachi there is one which would put Gai (or any ninja using mainly Taijutsu btw) in serious trouble easily : the Explosive Kage Bunshin.
How Gai could deal with an Explosive Kage Bunshin which would explode instead of disappearing with his speed and Taijutsu?

then we have kisame; well.. up until now i think he's weak; look at what asuma was able to do all by himself ( alright surprised him; nonetheless he wounded him; would those hand weapons be poisoned kisame would have been dead )

What Asuma was able to do? Nothing but a little scratch.
And Kisame was scratched by the chakra blade around the knife, difficult to poison that.

And Kurenai being able to freak out Oro? Come on...

Originally Posted by Animizzle

Kisame was certainly a factor. He attacked first and made Asuma focus on him. Secondly he made Kakashi focus on him because Kakashi had to stop the suikodan.
Regardless that Asume and Kurenai would have been owned beyond recognition Kisame DID make things harder. You should know that.

Not really, Kakashi wasn't focused at all on Kisame, he only countered one of his attack before he even started to try to stop Itachi.
And Kisame didn't even hold Asuma much, barely few second actually.
The time for Itachi to make one water attack and explode his Kage Bunshin, the whole thing was extremely fast, Kurenai didn't even have the time to do anything.
And then it's not that they would have been owned but that they were owned.
The three of them were in front of Itachi completely defenceless and Kisame wasn't a factor at all in this situation, it's just that they couldn't do anything because they couldn't open their eyes due to Itachi.
The presence of Kisame had nohing to do with that.

All true all true, but just picture 5 jounin's. Like i said, with a plan of attack, an ambush or whatever things start out way different. Hey may be fast he may be strong but 5 opponents it's always hard. Gai and Asuma could be using Taijutsu on him with Kakashi and kurenai using ninpou and Shizuno using whatever(she's a healer thank god) He'd have to think quite fast to be able to counter 5 consecutive attacks. And in case of an ambush it's even harder. Traps could be layed out summons could be everywhere. It's a lot to cope with for just one guy. Im sure you can get you imagination flowing on this.

That's precisely why I said that your if was to big, you can indeed imagine anything from that.
But not only to ambush Itachi seems to be incredibly difficult

Spoiler:

His ability to feel the presence of people around him seems to be more than excelent as when he felt the presence of Sasuke in the last flashback or during their last meet

especially when you don't know where he is in the first place

But like I said above, just his explosive Kage Bunshin make any form of close combat extremely dangerous, you can't even know if you're fighting him or a true bomb which could explode at any time if you get close to him if you want to attack it.
And yeah Itachi should be fast to counter a surprise attack from 5 ninjas, about as fast as someone able to cast jutsu so fast than even the Sharingan of Kakashi couldn't grap the hand seals
It's like when the 3rd and the 2 Anbu found Oro experiencing on human body.
They were 3 vs.1 but that didn't matter at all because the two Anbu were wasted instantaneously by the first attack of Oro simply because Oro is at a whole different level.

It's a Shonen world and skill matters way much than number, that's why Naruto can't win against skilled ninja with just Kage Bunshin even when he creates dozens or hundreds of them.

You don't seriously suppose that was a fair and square fight do you? He murdered his familiy/clan members during the night. It's not like they were expecting to get slaughtered that night and were all geared up and bit the dust in a incredible powershowdown by itachi.

Altho he did say he wanted to "measure his capacity" , the way his father and mother were lying on top of each other makes me think otherwise. more like they were suprised and he tried to protect her...

You're free to disagree tho

Why do you use spoiler tag? You're speaking of events already showed

And I don't know how Itachi slaughtered the whole clan but there were numerous bloody corpses laying on the streets with trace of fighting everywhere.
We talk of a ninja clan here, not mere civilian, fair and square has no meaning and I would that even if Itachi would have killed them all without their awareness (even if that doesn't really stick with what we saw) it's still more than insanely impressive.

Im not sure Im following you. care to elaborate?

The two sentence were not working with each other
I was saying that Jounins level ninja are rare so there probably weren't too much of them even in the famous Uchiha clan.

And then because I was speaking mostly of Itachi I said that it was the same for the Sannin and the Kage, ie that they can handle a fight against 5 jounins.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Not really, Kakashi wasn't focused at all on Kisame, he only countered one of his attack before he even started to try to stop Itachi.
And Kisame didn't even hold Asuma much, barely few second actually.
The time for Itachi to make one water attack and explode his Kage Bunshin, the whole thing was extremely fast, Kurenai didn't even have the time to do anything.
And then it's not that they would have been owned but that they were owned.
The three of them were in front of Itachi completely defenceless and Kisame wasn't a factor at all in this situation, it's just that they couldn't do anything because they couldn't open their eyes due to Itachi.
The presence of Kisame had nohing to do with that.

My dear Hunter, The fact that Asuma attacked Kisame and had to defend himself from Kisame's samehada means that he could't fight Itachi at that point
So why could't he fight Itachi wich would increase their chances however slim they were, it's still an increase..?Because Asuma was occupied with Kisame

Why do you use spoiler tag? You're speaking of events already showed

er, no....Read chapter 224 again and watch episode 85 again.
his little quote has yet to be revealed :] so i suggest you put it in spoiler tags just to make sure.

The two sentence were not working with each other
I was saying that Jounins level ninja are rare so there probably weren't too much of them even in the famous Uchiha clan.

And then because I was speaking mostly of Itachi I said that it was the same for the Sannin and the Kage, ie that they can handle a fight against 5 jounins.

Ah i see, good point.

Your points are good, and more importantly better then mine. Still im not completely convinced. I don't think we should take Jounins too lightly, That day (ep 82) they were shite, and a 2nd encounter with Itachi probably won't end in the same way. But ah wel..Itachi is just a damn strong bastard. sheehz..

last resort:
5 summons + 5 jounin make 10 -2 (if Itachi summons) ;]

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

My dear Hunter, The fact that Asuma attacked Kisame and had to defend himself from Kisame's samehada means that he could't fight Itachi at that point
So why could't he fight Itachi wich would increase their chances however slim they were, it's still an increase..?Because Asuma was occupied with Kisame

I don't see how it counters what I said in any ways.
The only moment where Asuma isn't with Kakashi and Kurenai lasts barely few second, ie the moment where Kakashi defends hymself against the attacks of Itachi.
Asuma then immediately jumped towards Kakashi and Kurenai to help them but they were completely powerless because of the Mangekyo, so I repeat : Kisame wasn't a factor to this 3 vs. 1.
They couldn't do anything because of Itachi's eyes at this point, Itachi could have had none or 30 subordinates that would have been the same, the situation was only due to Itachi, Kisame's presence didn't change anything to that.

his little quote has yet to be revealed :] so i suggest you put it in spoiler tags just to make sure.

I don't have the anime neither the manga except the last chapters but I do have a good memory and Itachi already said he did that to as a mesuring stick to test himself at the beginning of the volume 17.

Your points are good, and more importantly better then mine. Still im not completely convinced. I don't think we should take Jounins too lightly, That day (ep 82) they were shite, and a 2nd encounter with Itachi probably won't end in the same way. But ah wel..Itachi is just a damn strong bastard. sheehz..

I don't mean it's impossible for 5 Jounins (especially such elite jounins like Gai, Kakashi, etc.) to put a good combat against a ninja with the kind of level as Itachi, Oro, Jiraiya, etc. in a particular situation, in a particular place, with greater knowledge of the opponent, etc.
I mean it's only up to Kishimoto anyways.

But that's not particulary probable, frankly I think a larger number of people would be needed to take the risk to try to overwhelm this kind of opponent.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't see how it counters what I said in any ways.
The only moment where Asuma isn't with Kakashi and Kurenai lasts barely few second, ie the moment where Kakashi defends hymself against the attacks of Itachi.
Asuma then immediately jumped towards Kakashi and Kurenai to help them but they were completely powerless because of the Mangekyo, so I repeat : Kisame wasn't a factor to this 3 vs. 1.
They couldn't do anything because of Itachi's eyes at this point, Itachi could have had none or 30 subordinates that would have been the same, the situation was only due to Itachi, Kisame's presence didn't change anything to that.

I can't phrase it more simple then this:
If Kisame wasn't there, they could have instantly fought Itachi with the 3 of them and later on 4 for that matter.

Even if it's about split seconds, that's beside the point here.

I don't have the anime neither the manga except the last chapters but I do have a good memory and Itachi already said he did that to as a mesuring stick to test himself at the beginning of the volume 17.

Not really...he never mentions it in either 145 or 147...

I don't mean it's impossible for 5 Jounins (especially such elite jounins like Gai, Kakashi, etc.) to put a good combat against a ninja with the kind of level as Itachi, Oro, Jiraiya, etc. in a particular situation, in a particular place, with greater knowledge of the opponent, etc.
I mean it's only up to Kishimoto anyways.

But that's not particulary probable, frankly I think a larger number of people would be needed to take the risk to try to overwhelm this kind of opponent.

So true, I love it if a discussion ends in: "it's up to Kishimoto anyway" cos in the end..it always is

[raijin]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

Not really...he never mentions it in either 145 or 147...

Hmmm... maybe you should have checked chapter 146.

Itachi: "己の器を量るためだ"
or
Itachi: "It was to measure my capacity"

This was stated in both chapter 146 and 224. The earlier translation by Inane of a "measuring stick" was incorrect, they corrected it in the later chapter.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by raijin

Hmmm... maybe you should have checked chapter 146.

Itachi: "己の器を量るためだ"
or
Itachi: "It was to measure my capacity"

This was stated in both chapter 146 and 224. The earlier translation by Inane of a "measuring stick" was incorrect, they corrected it in the later chapter.

I stand corrected, Hunters Memory is indeed a fearsome one.

The 224 chapter was the supossed spoiler but it was mentioned already...

apologies

[UchihaNick]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Gai's speed and Taijutsu skills make him "only" the equal of Kakashi whereas Itachi is simply way better than Kakashi in every regard.

Besides and even with the very few jutsu we saw from Itachi there is one which would put Gai (or any ninja using mainly Taijutsu btw) in serious trouble easily : the Explosive Kage Bunshin.
How Gai could deal with an Explosive Kage Bunshin which would explode instead of disappearing with his speed and Taijutsu?


What Asuma was able to do? Nothing but a little scratch.
And Kisame was scratched by the chakra blade around the knife, difficult to poison that.

And Kurenai being able to freak out Oro? Come on...


Not really, Kakashi wasn't focused at all on Kisame, he only countered one of his attack before he even started to try to stop Itachi.
And Kisame didn't even hold Asuma much, barely few second actually.
The time for Itachi to make one water attack and explode his Kage Bunshin, the whole thing was extremely fast, Kurenai didn't even have the time to do anything.
And then it's not that they would have been owned but that they were owned.
The three of them were in front of Itachi completely defenceless and Kisame wasn't a factor at all in this situation, it's just that they couldn't do anything because they couldn't open their eyes due to Itachi.
The presence of Kisame had nohing to do with that.


That's precisely why I said that your if was to big, you can indeed imagine anything from that.
But not only to ambush Itachi seems to be incredibly difficult

Spoiler:

His ability to feel the presence of people around him seems to be more than excelent as when he felt the presence of Sasuke in the last flashback or during their last meet

especially when you don't know where he is in the first place

But like I said above, just his explosive Kage Bunshin make any form of close combat extremely dangerous, you can't even know if you're fighting him or a true bomb which could explode at any time if you get close to him if you want to attack it.
And yeah Itachi should be fast to counter a surprise attack from 5 ninjas, about as fast as someone able to cast jutsu so fast than even the Sharingan of Kakashi couldn't grap the hand seals
It's like when the 3rd and the 2 Anbu found Oro experiencing on human body.
They were 3 vs.1 but that didn't matter at all because the two Anbu were wasted instantaneously by the first attack of Oro simply because Oro is at a whole different level.

It's a Shonen world and skill matters way much than number, that's why Naruto can't win against skilled ninja with just Kage Bunshin even when he creates dozens or hundreds of them.


Why do you use spoiler tag? You're speaking of events already showed

And I don't know how Itachi slaughtered the whole clan but there were numerous bloody corpses laying on the streets with trace of fighting everywhere.
We talk of a ninja clan here, not mere civilian, fair and square has no meaning and I would that even if Itachi would have killed them all without their awareness (even if that doesn't really stick with what we saw) it's still more than insanely impressive.


The two sentence were not working with each other
I was saying that Jounins level ninja are rare so there probably weren't too much of them even in the famous Uchiha clan.

And then because I was speaking mostly of Itachi I said that it was the same for the Sannin and the Kage, ie that they can handle a fight against 5 jounins.

im pretty sure kakashi gets owned at speed and strength; all i meant was itachi's chakra supply is fast depleted cuz itachi mostly uses tsukiyomi and ameterasu; and he can do 3 of those techniqeus a day after that he's screwed. gai can always look at his feet ( with some difficulty ) cuz he trained years for it so no tsukiyomi; about the ameterasu; im as clueless as you guys are cuz we never saw what it is exactly; and on the other hand none of us have ever seen gai fighting at his ultimate strength and im sure thats something that has to be considered as well


about asuma.. well he was capable of holding back kisame's sword; at least for a while. but he wounded kisame thanks to surprise; and a shinobi "is" meant to be surprising; remember this isnt dbz guys ( although it is starting to look like it lately ) the element of surprise speaks for itself; one simple kunai in the back of his neck and he's done for

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

I can't phrase it more simple then this:
If Kisame wasn't there, they could have instantly fought Itachi with the 3 of them and later on 4 for that matter.

Even if it's about split seconds, that's beside the point here.

And like I said, it doesn't matter : Itachi just had to do the same thing as he did : Oooh! look at my beautiful eyes! And as it happened in the story they're then all screwed.
Once again, the presence of Kisame didn't change that, the Mangekyo put an end to their fight.
They had still stamina (though Kakashi seemed already tired from his intensive use of the Sharingan) , power, ect.
But they simply couldn't do anything but closing their eyes.

stand corrected, Hunters Memory is indeed a fearsome one.

Fear the dreaded spoon :P

The *** chapter was the supossed spoiler but it was mentioned already...

Notice that the number of the chapter was the only part I whiped off out of your quote