Madoka Magica - Movie Discussion (& Speculation) Thread

[andyjay729]

Yeah, considering that the TV series is almost half a decade old now (seriously?), Movies 1 and 2 are now past the three-year zeitgeist threshold, and Rebellion will be there next year, I kinda think that the show is over, what can I say? The show is over, yesterday...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5PQppudHc

(God is a concept by which we measure our pain...this would make a good Rebellion AMV)

[Vegard Aune]

Yeah, a sequel is starting to look less likely by the day... Although of course, to me this basically just translates to "Rebellion was a complete waste of time what the actual hell people." I mean, I know I'm far from the only one who thought that taken on its own, that thing does not even remotely work as an ending. I mean the ideas behind it are not bad, or rather the ideas it implies for future content aren't... But if that was meant to be the final ending to the entire franchise, then the way it was presented makes absolutely no sense at all.

...Then again, my theory is more that they did intend to continue the story only to then realize after the fact that, for as inconclusive as Rebellion's ending is... it really doesn't lend itself very well to another full-length movie or TV-series. I mean, I've been thinking a lot lately about how I would conclude the story... and I can really only imagine an ending. An ending that, theoretically, could happen immediately following the events we saw in Rebellion. And which probably wouldn't take more than 30 to 45 minutes to play out on screen at most. And ending it all with a >1hour movie... would probably seem like a bit of an anti-climax.

[andyjay729]

I still wonder somewhat if Gen and Shinbo had a similar mentality behind Rebellion as Anno did with EoE; that maybe Aniplex wanted a continuation that they didn't want to do, and so they produced a middle finger.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by andyjay729

I still wonder somewhat if Gen and Shinbo had a similar mentality behind Rebellion as Anno did with EoE; that maybe Aniplex wanted a continuation that they didn't want to do, and so they produced a middle finger.

Well I seem to distinctly remember that Urobuchi, at least, claimed that when he was first approached about making a sequel, he thought they were joking.

But nah, much as the ending completely rubs me the wrong way, I think Rebellion clearly had way too much time, effort and thought put into it for just a massive middle finger aimed at the executives. Besides, if that was their intent, you'd think they'd make the ending a bit more conclusive... and a bit more "F you"-ish. They probably wouldn't end it with a twist that is seemingly ripe with potential (even if I've since come to realize it's actually a bit of a narrative dead-end that is hard to make a full new story based off) and the entire cast alive and well.

[Kazu-kun]

^ I think it works as a "middle finger" exactly because at first it looks like an ending with a lot of potential for continuation, but it actually pushes the story into a corner and it's not easy to write a continuation for it at all.

I also get the feelings Urobuchi likes this ending as the overall ending for the franchise. I think a sort of twisted ending like this might actually suit his taste.

[Sackett]

I don't think continuation would be that hard.

It's a pretty clear setup. Pick one of the girls (most likely Sayaka or Mami, Hitomi as a wildcard) as the heroine that starts to figure out that something is wrong with this world. Possibly as a gambit by the incubators to try and recover from what Homura has done to them.

The end goal, that they probably don't even know right now, is to reawaken Madoka to godhood. Homura of course is the antagonist trying to block them, and takes on a role similar to Queen Beryl almost. So you'd need to give Homura some minions so the heroine can win some battles while not making any real progress.

If the incubators are involved, expect some double cross from them as they want to undo Homura's world, but also don't want to return to Madoka's either.

The problem isn't the continuation. The problem is the ending.

The TV series (and first 2 movies) was clearly a "Passion of the Christ" based story, with heavy Faust overtones.

Rebellion was a "Paradise Lost" story, with Homura in the position of Lucifer.

Continuing on, the only natural ending to the continuation is either "Restoration" or "Apocalypse."

"Restoration" would be open ended, and basically be restoration of Madoka to Godhood, but with Homura still free as an opposing Devil. Thus opening up direct conflict between them, and a hardening into enmity. This could then be followed later by an "Apocalypse" style ending.

"Apocalypse" would be the end end- Homura is defeated and banished to hell for her sins for all eternity, and Madoka re-establishes her reign as the Law of Cycles.

Notice that both of them result in a miserable ending for Homura.

That's the difficulty here. The only "corner" that the authors have been written into is that Homura has openly rebelled against salvation. Therefor, how can she ever benefit from it again? That was the entire power of the Rebellion movie, that's why it was a good movie.

It's also why I hated Rebellion. I like Homura, and I don't want her to be damned, but as Homura clearly already knows at the end of Rebellion, it's too late for her now.

Thus fans of Homura (which make up the majority of the fanbase) are going to hate whatever new story comes out. It's not that there is no good story left to tell, just that it's going to be unpopular.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Thus fans of Homura (which make up the majority of the fanbase) are going to hate whatever new story comes out. It's not that there is no good story left to tell, just that it's going to be unpopular.

This is probably the core issue with trying to continue the canon narrative. Any continuation of the canon narrative would almost have to place Homura into a pretty clear-cut antagonist role. Would most of the Madoka Magica fanbase accept that? From a marketing standpoint, it's probably a serious concern.

My gut feeling is that Madoka Magica will probably get a NGE-esque reboot at some point in the future. I think its popularity and legacy is as such that somebody will probably take a crack at that a few years to a decade down the line. But a direct continuation now seems very unlikely to me.

[Vegard Aune]

I don't really think a continuation where we focus on Mami or Sayaka or Kyouko uncovering the truth would work. Simply because, well, we the audience know the truth. It'd be all about characters uncovering what we the audience already know due to the end of Rebellion. Of course, if we're talking how to continue the story, I guess I can just say how I'd do it too. Mind you, the ending I came up with is admittedly a bit contrived, but I feel it mostly works in line with what we've been shown so far and would provide a fairly satisfying and unambiguously conclusive ending.

Spoiler for So basically what I'd have happen is...:

Okay so first off, Madoka dies in tragic and horribly ironic circumstances. Like, say, Madoka happens across a fight between Sayaka/Mami and some Wraiths, and this starts to trigger her memories again and so Homura intervenes to try and stop this from happening and then this directly leads to Madoka getting killed by the Wraiths or something. And then, (assuming here that the whole system Madoka established is still in place, which Rebellion seemed to imply, but that Madoka's own presence is required for it to remain) this causes the entire system to completely collapse and basically negates not only Rebellion's ending, but the show itself too. Witches are back, Homura no longer has universe-altering powers, and oh, Madoka is still dead. being meguca is suffering and all that.
Then it turns out that Homura, who has been conveniently depowered and turned back into a normal human (due to literally everything that ever caused her massive powers having been undone) now has the same kind of unfathomable potential that Madoka had in the show due to all the universe-rewriting shenanigans that she was directly responsible for in the now-retconned universes. And Kyubey, not knowing how badly this ended last time, is naturally interested in her for this reason. So Homura is basically faced with the choice of making a contract with him again, has a choice; Either she could try to bring Madoka back which would obviously be the first thing that comes to mind, or she could restore the system Madoka established that she herself completely ruined. And then, after everything that's happened and her experiencing time and time again how there seems to be absolutely no conceivable way to save Madoka, she chooses the second option. So Madoka's solution from the show is restored, but with nobody left to tell Kyubey that "by the way, in some other universe there was this other solution that would be much more efficient than what we have now," the plot of Rebellion will never happen again. And then just to further underline that this is definitely, unambiguously the final end of this story forever, I'd probably outright show Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami and Nagisa's deaths and ascensions into Magical Girl Heaven too. Just to make it absolutely clear that there would be no more stories with these particular characters and that any further sequels set in this universe would have to entail different characters entirely.

...What can I say, I felt that a perfect happy ending would be the greatest possible betrayal of what made the show great. I will admit there are several things that would need to be addressed for what I suggested to fully work, but then I'm not a professional writer.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Spoiler for So basically what I'd have happen is...:

Okay so first off, Madoka dies in tragic and horribly ironic circumstances. Like, say, Madoka happens across a fight between Sayaka/Mami and some Wraiths, and this starts to trigger her memories again and so Homura intervenes to try and stop this from happening and then this directly leads to Madoka getting killed by the Wraiths or something. And then, (assuming here that the whole system Madoka established is still in place, which Rebellion seemed to imply, but that Madoka's own presence is required for it to remain) this causes the entire system to completely collapse and basically negates not only Rebellion's ending, but the show itself too. Witches are back, Homura no longer has universe-altering powers, and oh, Madoka is still dead. being meguca is suffering and all that.
Then it turns out that Homura, who has been conveniently depowered and turned back into a normal human (due to literally everything that ever caused her massive powers having been undone) now has the same kind of unfathomable potential that Madoka had in the show due to all the universe-rewriting shenanigans that she was directly responsible for in the now-retconned universes. And Kyubey, not knowing how badly this ended last time, is naturally interested in her for this reason. So Homura is basically faced with the choice of making a contract with him again, has a choice; Either she could try to bring Madoka back which would obviously be the first thing that comes to mind, or she could restore the system Madoka established that she herself completely ruined. And then, after everything that's happened and her experiencing time and time again how there seems to be absolutely no conceivable way to save Madoka, she chooses the second option. So Madoka's solution from the show is restored, but with nobody left to tell Kyubey that "by the way, in some other universe there was this other solution that would be much more efficient than what we have now," the plot of Rebellion will never happen again. And then just to further underline that this is definitely, unambiguously the final end of this story forever, I'd probably outright show Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami and Nagisa's deaths and ascensions into Magical Girl Heaven too. Just to make it absolutely clear that there would be no more stories with these particular characters and that any further sequels set in this universe would have to entail different characters entirely.

To your credit, this is a pretty creative ending idea with a flash or two of brilliance to it.

However, I honestly prefer Rebellion's ending, even as a series ending, to what you've outlined here.

In my view, your proposed ending would undo what positives there are to the Rebellion ending, and without really gaining back the positives that were lost due to the Rebellion ending. Honestly, it almost has a "worst of both worlds" feeling to me. It would in fact be the least happy of the three endings in my mind (less happy than the TV series ending as well as Rebellion's ending).

What made the TV series ending great wasn't simply the system that Madoka set up, it was also Madokami herself. She was beautiful and glorious, and filled the ending with great hope and warmth.

For me, Rebellion's ending had two big negatives - Essentially undoing Madokami, and feeling less conclusive than the TV series ending felt to me. Your ending idea doesn't bring Madokami back, and in fact subjects Madoka to a worst ending than what she has in Rebellion's ending.

Your ending would be more conclusive than Rebellion's, I'll give you that. But in seeing a hypothetical conclusive ending that I don't like, I'm starting to have 2nd thoughts on PMMM having an open-ended ending in general. Maybe an open-ended ending isn't so bad after all. Maybe such uncertainty and world of unpredictable potentially double-edged magic is well in-keeping with the overall vibe and tone of Madoka Magica.

[Vegard Aune]

...Yeah, not gonna deny that. My mindset here was basically "How could I bring about an actual conclusive ending that doesn't just completely disregard what had come before it?" Simply restoring the TV-series ending as-is, (tempting though that may be being that I consider it to be one of the most perfect endings to anything I've ever seen) would just kill the whole point of a sequel in the first place, so I tried to think of a way to make something similar without actually being the exact same thing. And I wanted to bring some closure to Homura's character that wasn't just "I've set up this new system that is clearly not going to work in the long-term but whatever." Which is basically what Rebellion's ending was to me, I mean, what else can you take from that final scene beyond "this setup is unstable and is going to collapse on itself sooner or later?"

...But oh hey, just on this page we have three suggested outcomes that Rebellion's ending could lead to, and all of them have the problem that it would result in an utterly miserable outcome for Madoka and/or Homura. How about that... Now I'm just trying to think if there's any way one could give both of them a satisfying conclusion and still commit to all the plot-developments that had come before...

[AuraTwilight]

Honestly, I could be more satisfied with Rebellion as an ending if I knew what the fuck was going on. As things stand, the Homuverse's properties are so ambiguous that you can't make heads or tails of what's what or why Homura's set-up is a good thing or a bad thing.

Which might well be the point, but the moral ambiguity comes from "I don't know" rather than legitimate controversy.

[Kazu-kun]

I think making a continuation would be hard mainly for two reasons:

1) There's no mystery element after the conflict introduced by the ending of Rebellion. The characters might not know what's going on, but we the audience know, and that kills the mystery. This is a huge contrast to both the TV series and Rebellion itself. In both works the audience is completely ignorant about the real nature of the conflict until around episode 10 in the anime, and the moment Homura learns the truth of the dream world from Kyubey in Rebellion. A continuation would lack this mystery element and I think it would lose some of the charm from the previous works without it. I bet this is quite the concern for the staff and producers, who usually try to keep the same genre and tone in sequels (there's a reason the TV series and Rebellion are similar in their efforts to keep things from the audience during their first half).

2) How to end the continuation. Madoka's world is a thing of the past, so I think going back to it would feel like the story is going in circles (going nowhere). Rather, whatever happens in a continuation should lead to something new and better. A world that takes the best from everything that came before, the best from both Madoka and Homura. But that wouldn't be easy to write, especially with Homura in an antagonistic position.


My guess is that Urobuchi wrote Rebellion as the definitive ending of the franchise. A twisted ending that suits his taste. But he probably was told to leave sequel hooks by the producers, and so he did, but it's clear he didn't put a lot of effort into making things easy for a potential continuation to be made, and now the producers are probably having a lot of trouble trying to find a suitable storyline that can guarantee the same success of the previous works. This last point is most important: they don't want just any story; they want a sure success. And for that they need a story that can bring as much of the charm of the previous works as possible. In that respect, having Homura as antagonist is probably a problem too. She's the most popular character after all.

[AuraTwilight]

1) In fairness, they could always pull a fast one on the audience like they did with Rebellion. Everyone thought they'd know what was up in a Wraith World sequel.

2) If things DID go in a circle, it'd be hilariously poetic because Madoka's name literally means 'Circle'. Puella Magi Circle Magica.

[andyjay729]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

1) If things DID go in a circle, it'd be hilariously poetic because Madoka's name literally means 'Circle'. Puella Magi Circle Magica.

They did, kinda. One of the first scenes in the series is Madoka picking out her yellow hair ribbon; at the end of Rebellion Homura gives it back to her.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

1) In fairness, they could always pull a fast one on the audience like they did with Rebellion. Everyone thought they'd know what was up in a Wraith World sequel.

This is a good point. They could just fast-forward to a completely new situation, and fill us in on the details of how it happened later on. Just like Rebellion itself did.

Suppose the movie starts with Homura back to being Moemura, and Madoka back to being a magical girl. You could even have Madoka rescuing Homura all over again.

Woah, how did that happen?! Well, there's all sorts of ways this could happen. Maybe Homura gets depressed at seeing Madoka grow up and living a generally dissatisfying adult life, and decides to force the clocks back. Madoka is a very nice person, but she does have her failings and self-worth issues. It's quite possible that she doesn't grow up to be a happy adult in the life that Homura is forcing upon her.

[Kazu-kun]

Pulling a fast one on the audience is not as easy as it sounds though. The audience already had their expectations, and if you're going to betray them, you got to deliver something really good and interesting. In that respect, Rebellion barely succeeded. A sequel would need something even better, because everyone is looking forwards to what's going to happen between Homura and Madoka right after Rebellion. If you're not going to give them that, you better give them something REALLY good. Otherwise, don't even try.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If things DID go in a circle, it'd be hilariously poetic because Madoka's name literally means 'Circle'. Puella Magi Circle Magica.

It would be lame, and I'm convinced the staff are aware of that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Pulling a fast one on the audience it's not as easy as it sounds. The audience already had their expectations, and if you're going to betray them, you got to deliver something really good and interesting. In that respect, Rebellion barely succeeded. A sequel would need something even better, because everyone is stocked to see what's going to happen between Homura and Madoka right after Rebellion. If you're not going to give them that, you better give them something REALLY good. Otherwise, don't even try.

Honestly, I disagree pretty strongly with you here.

Ultimately, it just needs to be fun and entertaining. It just needs to play to what fans would like to see. Heck, shallow as it may sound, playing up some yuri subtext in the first quarter of a sequel would probably be enough to get most of the fanbase totally on-board. Have some nice HomuMado and KyouSaya scenes in the first quarter of the movie, and you'd already have the full support of the most of the audience. Yes, it's probably cynical, but I also honestly think it's true. Not only that, but given how HomuMado looks at the end of Rebellion, I'd say that a lot of people would feel a huge wave of relief at seeing the two in happy blissful friendship scenes again. I daresay that this might even apply to you personally, Kazu-kun. I'll admit it would probably apply to me.

Also, defying expectations can in fact be a positive. Showing scenes that people aren't expecting, but are like dream scenarios to them, can be tremendously effective. And frankly, I think that's a big part of the reason why Rebellion was largely well-received. Whatever one thinks of its finale, it's still an excellent piece of entertainment overall. With excellent visuals, interesting character interactions, fun new scenarios that are different from what we've seen before (Puella Magi Holy Quintet!), and one of the best fight scenes in all of anime (Homura vs. Mami).

Matching (or even surpassing) Homura vs. Mami would in fact be one of the biggest challenges facing a sequel, in my opinion, as people looking for flashy magical girl action would certainly be hoping for that.

We here on this thread can maybe get a little too caught up on plot and theme and world building and stuff like that. That's all important, but at the end of the day, this is entertainment. Manage to be entertaining, and showcase the characters in ways that fans of the characters will like, and fans will forgive a lot if needbe.

[Solace]

I think it's far more likely that none of the creative parties involved see a point in pushing to make a continuation when they have other projects competing for their attention. There is no demand from their employers because Madoka franchising revenue is still good enough and the next big hit could be whatever projects they currently have in the pipeline. In terms of ending the main story, Rebellion could easily be continued but the ending is pretty simple: "Homura wins, the end". There's no burning need for Gen to "fix" that ending and Shinbo would rather just slice of life the whole thing.

So yeah....if this is the end of Madoka, I'm okay with what we got, and to be honest it's probably better that they just stop here rather than milking it to death.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I disagree pretty strongly with you here.

Making anime isn't cheap. They're not going to make a sequel if they're not sure it's going to work, specially for such a hit franchise like Madoka.

If they did, we would have our sequel already.

And Solace is right that Shinbo would probably prefer a slice of life spinoff rather than a sequel anyway.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

So yeah....if this is the end of Madoka, I'm okay with what we got, and to be honest it's probably better that they just stop here rather than milking it to death.

I have to admit I get some considerable cognitive dissonance as I read that, and then look over at your avatar...

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Making anime isn't cheap.

Which if anything, should support relatively safe properties that already have a strong fanbase.

Also, you never addressed most of my argument there. Or even the crux of it, really.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And Solace is right that Shinbo would probably prefer a slice of life spinoff rather than a sequel anyway.

So why don't we have one yet? Or even the slightest hinting of one? It's been over two years...