2011-02-18, 05:54
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Link #61 |
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Ojou-sama Familiar!!!!!!!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: God knows where I am now....
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lulz, Cross Game almost dominate the awards, just like KnK dominate last year xD
I haven't watch Cross Game so I don't have anything to say about it but FMA winning best storyline and fighting is nice, considering they are actually awesome in those category.
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2011-02-18, 09:42
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Link #62 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
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 What part of that quote are you referring to? Cross Game would still be eligible to sweep the awards if such a group of people decided it had a broad range of categories and allowed nominations in all those categories. Or perhaps you mean it's easy to categorize Cross Game and that it wouldn't take very long to categorize it?
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2011-02-18, 10:12
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Link #63 | |
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Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Spoiler for 2010 Anime List::
As for preventing bullshit nominations. Honestly I think most of the voters themselves are just as "qualified" as we are in deciding what counts and what doesn't. I'm just not sure we can reasonably apply a system that deals with such things without letting bias getting in the way of our judgement.
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2011-02-18, 10:26
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Link #65 | |
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Home of Silent Prayer
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Regarding the genre/theme discussion, I'm not fully in support of determining beforehand what genre a show is eligible for. I think James0246 puts it nicely here:
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For a more extreme example, take Neon Genesis Evangelion, believed by many to be the top anime. Now, among its many things, at one point Shinji is living with two hot single women, and there's also Rei, which can be counted as a harem if we're stretching it. Of course, even if you see it that way it's a very minor theme, but IF there's a harem category, what if NGE is nominated simply because many thinks that it's the number one anime, who happen to have a minor harem aspect as well? Or if I find the girls in plug suits as a sign of fanservice, for it to be nominated in that category? Now to combat that, I see two options: first, discussing beforehand what genres should apply to each series, which means that the series can only be nominated on the agreed-upon genres determined beforehand, or simply clarifying what each categories means and having the best faith that the voters would know better. Perhaps I'm being too naive, but I personally opt for the latter, as I believe that the voters will try to take this seriously, even if I don't agree with what they genuinely vote. What do the rest of you think?
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2011-02-18, 10:52
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Link #67 | |
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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If you want, we can do it like this: you can only nominate a series in one genre. If people are so called "angels" then there's no problem right? My only concern with such a system is that it is highly costly to maintain; I'd rather we just have pruning rules based on majority consensus, which we can determine objectively by looking at which genre the series got the most nominations in.
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2011-02-18, 11:44
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Link #69 | ||
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Che! Che! Che!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brazil
Age: 34
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People are a bit too worried over Cross Game having won "4" different awards, but see it this way: One of them is the "Best Overall", it's something that will most likely be won alongside another "genre" category. Now, romance and drama are usually two genres that do go along quite nicely and can co-exist. Just like it does in Cross Game. It might not be a series that dwells into angst all of the time, so I'd say that also helps into making the people forget the suffering that a lot of those characters undergo throughout the series. And then, finally, it got the sports one, which despite what people may or may not think, was clearly one of the series focus during lots and lots of episodes. Overall, I still don't agree with limiting something. If people did find Cross Game to be the series that delivered the best drama for them in a year as well as the best sports show, why is it that the AnimeSuki Choice Awards shouldn't allow them to vote Cross Game on both categories? That's like telling people they can pick their favourite show -- but only once, it can't be great at two things at the same time.
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2011-02-18, 13:29
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Link #70 | ||
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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As per the discussion above, we're either switching everything to purely decorative themes, or we figure out a way to make sure things actually get placed in their proper genre. Lady Gaga and Biber music can "fit" every music genre, and probably have a million idiots to support this if it ever came to a "community vote," that doesn't make it right! Genre's are mutually exclusive, when something comes out that doesn't fit into a specific genre, it doesn't just get put into every other genre that "fits"; instead a new genre is created/defined for it. If Cross Game is really this "heavy-light hearted romantic-baseball" (which it's not) and there are more like it then we just need to define a genre for it. If you're going to bring up the Choice part, fine by me. There were countless people who mentioned they didn't feel they had anything to actually choose from. Also, we're looking at a abnormally high number of abstained votes for the categories. If anythings people's choice isn't that well respected. Anyway, I think we should just drop the CG debate, it seems to just draw out purely defensive comments from everyone. Proposal #A: We can have a separate parallel contest that just works with genres and turn all the so-called genre categories in this one into "themes". That would mean fewer categories; sort of. It would also make everyone happy. or Proposal #B: You nominate by giving a series one genre and up to five major themes; you decide which. For example: "Giant Killing (Sport): psychological, teamplay." Everything is aggregated, and taken as nominations. You can nominate in this system as many as you like, but each genre has to be unique (and valid). Categories such as "Best Tv" or "Best Character" or "Best Visuals" don't have a nominations phase; in the voting phase you simply name the most worthy one you can think of. Looking back at the counts for the nomination phase, I really think we can just drop the voting phase, or rework it so the two phases aren't so mirrored in one another; like in #B above.
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2011-02-18, 13:42
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Link #71 |
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Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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A big problem is people are confusing the overall quality of a series with how well it exemplifies the qualities of the respective genres its winning.
For example, Cross Game on an outward appearance is a sports anime, but that's not the primary focus of the show. I'm sure shows like Giant Killing were equally as good at portraying sports, what the category is meant for. Not that Giant Killing was an overall better anime, that's where the overall series categories comes into play. ---------- Anyhow I implore the people running this contest to reinstate a best overall anime category. Why isn't there one?
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2011-02-18, 13:50
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Link #72 | |
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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2011-02-18, 13:52
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Link #73 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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What needs work is the nomination phase. The threshold needs to be set lower so we could get more options next time. I know it's partially my (or anyone else's) fault because I didn't participate in the nomination phase, but I figured it would work out somehow.
Everything else was fine. This whole "<anime series> shouldn't win so many" happens quite frequently at various voting competitions, and you can't really do anything about it if you want to guarantee that all titles will be given a fair shot. Setting up nominees by arbitraty standards or a popular decision of select few would ruin it for others. So for better or worse, it was a community decision, the popular vote won, and that's that. I didn't vote Cross Game, I don't like many of the winners, but what can you do--this is AnimeSuki, it has its own identity. Thinking this competition is anything more than just a popularity contest of a small part of fandom is surely gonna feel disappointing. |
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2011-02-18, 14:32
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Link #75 | ||
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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Proposal: To avoid people just injecting their favorite show into everything, nobody is allowed to vote/nominate just one series. You can vote/nominate 0, 2, or 3. All your choices count the same. It doesn't matter what the difference between the shows is, you have to show you know what you're talking about by voting more then one. We can ditch the "registered since X date" if we do it like this as well, so all members can vote. @Reckoner It's unfeasible to measure Tv series with Movies. Even if there may be some Tv series that are "better" then some Movies, it's still overall unfair. Tv series are long, Movies have more attention to detail. We might as well insert Anime/Manga inspired Live Action; it's not like we don't have other categories with so called "small fanbase". Overall, I'm neutral on having this extra "Best out of Everything" category, but feel the criteria for it are so flimsy it's yet another way of just creating some "series penis". Say a series Z won this category, does that make it better then everything?
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2011-02-18, 15:38
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Link #76 | |||
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Che! Che! Che!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brazil
Age: 34
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I'm growing tired of this, really. It's just going around in circles. So, to avoid debating any further, I'll just try to sum up my feelings and let the argument continue. You, or anybody else, for that matter, would have to prove (isn't this a strong word!) that Cross Game (or any other show, I could come out here now and say that Haruhi isn't the best animated show of the year and make a fuss about it) doesn't have dramatic moments that are meant to be taken seriously and also that people who have watched a couple of shows cannot prefer that to something which focused on drama more often but hardly ever delivered the same experience. If you could do that, awesome. But since you most likely can't really prove anything regarding other people's taste, I'd say it's better if we just accept what cyth said and what I've been saying for the last couple pages as well. AnimeSuki Choice Awards isn't the "Academy Awards" nor is it trying to pick the objectively best show of each category. In something where the whole community is called to vote you can't expect the result to be unbiased, people will vote on what their favourite is, not the" best objectively speaking show of category x". The point of these awards has always been to illustrate the AnimeSuki readers/posters preferences regarding anime of <year>. The moment we start limiting people regarding what they can or can not vote as their favourites there are two three things that might happen: 1) If the people organizing the awards pick the shows which are eligible for nomination in the first place you're applying your own bias to this process. You're obviously not unbiased, no one is, so it strikes me as something as "I'm more qualified to decide what is eligible or not in a certain category". Can't agree with this, obviously. 2) If you limit people to nominate a show only once, then you're doing what I said on my last post. "Here, it's okay to vote on your favourite. But only once. Even if you think it should win two or three different categories, you can't because we say so". That's also wrong and it'd end up altering the awards and having people voting on stuff that might not have been their actual favourite for the year simply because there's a rule preventing them to. So what if in the end there are 15 different series that get an award as opposed to 6 if, the next time someone here asks for help finding a series with "drama" from 2010, people will go and say that Cross Game was their favourite, even though it'd never even have been nominated for the category in the first place. 3) Having to make people 'prove' that they understand what they're talking about is just another elitist idea that will simply scare people away from the awards. Personally, I think most of the voters aren't really well versed regarding animation and are not in tune with what most of the hardcore japanese animation fans who study this thing up and down think. Does that make them unworthy of voting in this category? Also, the people who voted Angel Beats! for best soundtrack shouldn't be allowed to vote even though quite a few of them said they voted it because of the OP/ED? Hey, it's not like I agree with it, either, but I'm able to respect whatever other people may have picked no matter how strange the concept of picking the best soundtrack of the year through two songs might be. After all, my main fun in this little voting process we host here is seeing what other people considered to be their favourite show of a certain year. If I wanted to just have what I think should win in the top, then there'd be no need to call everyone and tell them to vote on their favourites. Quote:
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Overall, that's it. I feel it's wrong to have a small number of people deciding what's right or wrong in a voting that's supposed to reflect the favourite shows from a whole community. Still, that's just me and my own opinion, and if the majority of the users does decide that they want a major overhaul of the voting system, complete with limitations et all, then there's nothing I can do aside from going along with it. Cheers.
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Last edited by Blue-kun; 2011-02-18 at 16:36. |
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2011-02-18, 16:48
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Link #77 | |
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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@Blue, I've already dropped the useless Cross Game debate. I'm also going to ignore any other direct reference to a series in this contest; no contest looks back, given the results are final any cyclic debate is not only endless but also pointless. ¶ You're not proving nothing to me by raising some wall around Cross Game. I'm also not arguing about turning this into some academy award, just how the categories need to be more truthful. I'll take a non-existent category as a example to avoid cyclic debates like with CG: we're awarding "Best Tragedy of the Year" to what is really "Animesuki Award for favorite Anime with a Tragedy theme/motif". I feel like we're petting our hybris a little much. The contest should be more honest and humble, so I agree with Haak's suggestion of giving descriptions and changing genres to themes, however there's still the option of pushing so it lives up to it's name (it's full name! AnimeSuki in the title doesn't just excuse everything).
Anyway, according to every reliable dictionary in reach (and they all give almost identical definition) Theme A unifying or dominant idea, motif, etc. In the visual arts, a theme is a broad idea or a message conveyed by a work. Themes are usually implied rather than explicitly stated. A theme is not the same as the subject of a work. For example, the subject of Star Wars is "the battle for control of the galaxy between the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance". The themes explored in the films might be "moral ambiguity" or "the conflict between technology and nature".Genre A class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like. Genre defines individuals' interactions with and within their environments. In order to be recognized as genre these interactions and environments must be recurring.Clannad is not part of the Action genre. Some fighting happening here and there, and someone getting a bloody nose isn't exactly cutting it. The fighting is merely a motif (a recurring pattern), the environment, context, and interactions are all completely off. For it to be part of the action genre it would require the main characters to run all over the place picking fights and fighting for supremacy, control or/and some ultimate "series goal." There would also have to be a lot of training, preparing, strategizing, and possibly the characters rematching and rampaging all over the place…among a half a dozen other patterns for form, content and technique. And all of this needs to happen from series start to series end (and not just be a theme of one arc) or a stylistic choice of the series (motif). Additionally any other subplot needs to be embedded into this form, not just tangent to it. A series like Akagi belongs in the Sports genre, because it's plot depicts the fine details of mahjong, the people who play it, the rules who govern it and every other defining traits in the form. The story on the other hand follows the struggles, successes, failures and risks of the protagonist and every side character involved purely in the context of the game, the psychological effect of the game, the relationships built around the game, and the enemies to the game (largely portraied with the antagonist(s)). Quote:
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2011-02-18, 17:19
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Link #78 |
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Nope.
Fansubber
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Elsewhere
Age: 31
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I'm starting to agree with not touching the award-sweeping "issue" now.
Look at the 2008 awards. Why were they so awesome? Why did so many people vote? Why is it that the only show that actually had the opportunity to get multiple genre category awards was Natsume Yuujinchou (which ended up not winning any)? I'm pretty sure nothing different was happening with the voting/nomination process. Maybe there was more advertising so people actually knew about it, but other than that, nothing. I think the only issues are the amount of voters and the amount of high-quality shows. Let's face it: these past few years have been pretty weak in producing a nice amount of good shows in some of these genres. It's only natural that things like Kara no Kyoukai, Bakemonogatari and Cross Game would be used to fill holes. Have the mods make an announcement or two for the next awards but otherwise leave it be. It'll fix itself. It'll also break itself again later, but oh well.
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2011-02-18, 17:37
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Link #79 | ||
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Che! Che! Che!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brazil
Age: 34
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Now the case with Cross Game, however, if you have watched the series I find it hard for you to dismiss completely that it does give a major role to the tragedy and the rest of the series shows particularly well what the results of it were, having some characters undergo huge changes and and unable to let go of it for the longest time. It's implied there, everyone can see, frustrated relationships, doubts... all of this to me would classify as drama. It's not because the series can be funny and/or witty at times that it does not have a very present drama vertent that's constantly explored. Because really, it's the result of that tragedy that gives meaning to Cross Game and what makes the rest of the show go on, and molds the characters into what they are. Now if you think that's on the same level as "some bloody noses" and comedy relief deaths as previously stated... well, I'm afraid we won't, ever, agree on this matter. I'm not really sure what to say anymore, really. I think we're not even in the same page, because if I just look at the big picture, then I have no problems agreeing with you. What irks me is how you end up comparing "characters getting killed as a joke in a comedy show" and "character kicking people and bloody noses in a show with a very strong comedy component" with the drama in Cross Game-esque series. In the end, each example, or, in this case, series, is unique and when it's not that obvious where the line should be drawn, generalizing is just a bad idea. And even if you were to decide what can and can not be classified as a <genre>, in cases where it's not that clear, arguments like these will take place. Quote:
 Oh well, here's hoping you'll actually find this more productive than me tapping on the same key over and over again, I'm finding hard to continue this line of argument when I feel I'm not quite being understood, so!
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2011-02-18, 18:09
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sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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There's no reason to have a nomination phase if we aren't going to make use of it to get proper refined nominations.
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Ok, try doing it for cross game…
