High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[DragonOsman]

@B214: Yeah, I know he was telling Ddraig to come to his Artificial Sacred Gear and leave Ise's Sacred Gear. We don't know for sure what mastery means here, just that he'd be able to use it better than Vali or Ise.

@Darksider555: Thanks for posting that here.

[Lucidrago]

Well just that he would be able to use it better than Issei. Nothing was ever mentioned about Vali.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@Norn: Why would the Holy Nail have the form of a sword when it's a nail? What I'm thinking of is that thing that's shaped kind of like a screw except instead of using a screwdriver, you have to hammer it in.

I was thinking something like a very long nail, long enough to deeply stab a hand and thick wood yet stick out like a huge sore thumb.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Well just that he would be able to use it better than Issei. Nothing was ever mentioned about Vali.

In hindsight it doesn't matter because Euclid got wasted and both Ise and Vali have more than proven being the best hosts for the Heavenly Dragons in history. No need to put much value into the words of someone who was at the top of his potential about those who have yet to show any ceiling in growth. And again, he got wasted.

[Darksider555]

Originally Posted by Norn

I was thinking something like a very long nail, long enough to deeply stab a hand and thick wood yet stick out like a huge sore thumb.


In hindsight it doesn't matter because Euclid got wasted and both Ise and Vali have more than proven being the best hosts for the Heavenly Dragons in history. No need to put much value into the words of someone who was at the top of his potential about those who have yet to show any ceiling in growth. And again, he got wasted.

Maybe something like a holy dagger? I think that it could also be used as a holy sealing Sacred Gear, since it was used to bind Christ.

[DragonOsman]

@Lucidrago: Euclid's base is better than both Vali's and Ise's. After all it's Maou-class. Should mean he has Maou-class Demonic Power. Vali uses his Demonic Power to use Juggernaut Drive for a few minutes, so Euclid should be able to use it for longer, and Ddraig did say that Euclid would be able to bring out more than Ddraig's full power. Vali also still can't bring out Albion's full power yet. That's how we can say that Euclid would be able to use Juggernaut Drive better than Vali.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by Darksider555

Maybe something like a holy dagger? I think that it could also be used as a holy sealing Sacred Gear, since it was used to bind Christ.

I would really love to say with confidence that the SG's will sometimes choose in what form they will appear (usually in accordance with their host), but we don't have any info on that. And the ones that do adapt to their host are usually Balance Breakers, specifically sub types.


On a similar note, could someone explain to me what exactly the Abyss Side is? And how many people besides Tobio have actually reached it?

[Lucidrago]

@Osman When was it said that Euclid's base was better than Vali's and when was it said that Euclid had Maou-class demonic powers?

Abyss-side is basically just honing your Sacred Gear to its limits and utmost perfection and basically achieving a new state which transcends even that. Vali's EJOD is Abyss-side I believe. And Issei, Gasper, and Saji had reached the Abyss-side although their forms are way too irregular to be solely classified as the Abyss-side.

Subspecies are ones that adapt to their possessor's desires and takes a form suited to them. Like the possessor customized the Sacred Gear to suit them specifically.

[DragonOsman]

Euclid said he's equal to Grayfia. Grayfia is Maou-class.

Also, please get it: Ddraig said Euclid would be able to bring out more than his full power. Vali still can't bring out Albion's full power, let alone more than that, right? And it's because his base isn't strong enough yet. That's why I said that Euclid's base is better than Vali's. Why do you need everything spelled out for you?

Edit:
@Norn: There's a part in the LNs (I forget which Volume) where Azazel talks about Abyss-side, Ickx-side, and Crescent-side Balance Breakers and who has which. The third is the normal kind. Ise, Saji, and Tobio have reached the Abyss-side, but Ise also has Ickx-side (one of his is Ickx-side). I don't remember what it means for a Balance Breaker to Abyss-side, exactly, though. IIRC, DxD G mode is Abyss-side and Triaina and True Queen are Ickx-side. Boosted Gear Scale-Mail is Crescent-side.

[Lucidrago]

That's because Vali is still young. It's not like people automatically become stronger with things in just a day.

Euclid said he never felt inferior to Grayfia. That doesn't automatically equate to him being Maou-class. And while Issei had to use the Wyverns to overwhelm him still doesn't make Euclid Maou-class in base.

While he definitely had a lot of demonic powers and was able to surpass Issei in his Crimson armor while just using a replica, Issei really has an incredibly weak base.

You would think for such a strong opponent he wouldn't have gotten beaten to such an extent.

[XFire]

Elucid is stated more than once to be Maou-class and equal to Grayfia before using the BG. His base form is above both Issei and Vali's respective base's.

Its not like he could beat EJOD in a head-on fight, and he can't do shit against Issei's multiple abilities (and Longinus Smasher) but as far as raw power goes his BxB was far stronger than either of theirs.

[Lucidrago]

Euclid said that he never felt inferior to Grayfia and Issei just automatically took that as meaning he was Maou-class like Grayfia. Doesn't mean he was Maou-class in base.

[Superbia]

Was it ever said by anyone other than Euclid that he wasn't inferior to Grayfia? I know he's really strong, but I can't remember anyone else confirming that they have similar strength.

Depending on how long it's been since he's seen his sister's full strength and his own arrogance, he might not be a reliable source. I could even see Grayfia purposely matching her strength to his level when sparring in the past causing him to think this.

[Parry999]

Originally Posted by Superbia

Was it ever said by anyone other than Euclid that he wasn't inferior to Grayfia? I know he's really strong, but I can't remember anyone else confirming that they have similar strength.

Depending on how long it's been since he's seen his sister's full strength and his own arrogance, he might not be a reliable source. I could even see Grayfia purposely matching her strength to his level when sparring in the past causing him to think this.

His aura was similar to Grayfia that magic couldn't tell the difference and Azazel said he was strong enough to lead the chaos brigade by himself. Meaning without the fake boosted gear he was above Shalba and Coa coa however issei believed in the last battle he was inferior to Grayfia. Oh and he beat Balance breaker Vali in Volume 16.

[Lucidrago]

His aura was similar to hers in the sense that they were siblings. Like they had similar aura readings. Not the same amount.

When did he beat Vali in Balance Breaker? He fought Vali in Balance Breaker in Volume 16. He never defeated him.

I'm not denying that Euclid's a powerful devil but saying he's Maou-class in his base is what I'm skeptical of. Maybe Euclid was overconfident and simply wanted to believe that he was as strong as Grayfia.

[EternalDragonGod Ise]

Pfft please...as if that Idiot has more Potential to bring Ddraigs true Power out than Ise. Ise is the fucking forbidden Excistence, that even Shiva finds interesting, hell even Trihexa did find Ise charismatic I mean that Sentence said everything :"A serious Great Red and Ophis in her prime would be roughly equivalent, or perhaps even superior than this. You can understand the abnormality of Ise who has inherited the power of both those Dragon Gods."

I mean i would be even more scared of Ise than of anyone in the Top 10 Strongest Beings. I mean that Guy is only a little over a Year in the Supernatrual, unlike this Guys who are thousand of Years old, hell even is his whole Life in the Supernatrual World and Ise is most likely equal to him (vol 25 +).

[Darksider555]

@Norn

Here is the explanation in regards to the Abyss, Crest & Ex Balance Breakers. Crest is most BxB including subspecies. Abyss is BxB that is reached by mastering their original BxB in which Abyss BxB combines with it user to produce a more powerful form. And EX is those who cannot be properly categories due to abnormalities. For instace, Ise's evil pieces combine with his Sacred Gear power or Saji using for Sacred Gears which he fuses into one to form a new BxB. Ise's CCQ could be considered as a Abyss along with DxD G since he had to overcome JD to unlock CCQ. And DxD is simply CCQ enhanced with power of infinity.

Each faction had their own hypotheses regarding Longinus. The hypothesis that the most knowledgeable Azazel proposed was [Longinus are highly scalable and expandable Sacred Gears]. Especially after attaining the Balance Breaker, their power would significantly increase, and the abilities that they could manipulate also increased. Longinus were the kinds of Sacred Gears that greatly transcended other Sacred Gears. Azazel had said before that Longinus absorbed their wielder’s abilities and creativity, and then became a vessel for their realisation.

—The original meaning of Balance Breaker referred to a forbidden move of the Longinus. Azazel proposed that the possibilities of a Balance Breaker could be roughly divided into three types. The majority of Balance Breakers, including subspecies, could be classified as strengthening, evolving to a point of transformation. By pursuing the arrogance of themselves and the Sacred Gear, one would fuse together with their Sacred Gear to produce the Abyss Side. This was the type that Vali and Ikuse Tobio belonged to. Finally, there were those that couldn’t be categorised by this system due to their sudden variation, and those were the exceptions among exceptions. This was Hyoudou Issei, Kiba Yuuto’s Holy-Demonic Sword, Gasper Vladi, and Saji Genshirou; something had happened in relation to the Gremory peerage. In particular, Hyoudou Issei, Gasper Vladi and Saji Genshirou had also reached the Abyss Side. It could be described as an extremely abnormal generation. The phenomenon that was originally impossible began to occur frequently around Hyoudou Issei. Azazel was also quite intrigued by this.

[DragonOsman]

@Eternal: Ddraig himself said in Volume 17 that if it were Euclid, he'd be able to bring out more than Ddraig's full power. Ise has the potential to be more powerful than that, but right now he isn't strong enough. Do you understand that? Do you understand the difference between potential and current power?

@Lucidrago: It's also been said that Grayfia is above Maou-class (above original Maou) but still falls within the range of Maou-class. So with Ise saying that he is inferior to Grayfia, it could mean that Euclid is "normal" Maou-class. And again, notice what Ddraig said. Neither Ise nor Vali can bring out even exactly Ddraig or Albion's full power at this point, and yet according to Ddraig, Euclid could bring out more if it were him. And we know that the Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing depend on base stats. Do you need me to say more?

[EternalDragonGod Ise]

@Osman I am not dumb. I know what it means. But we are not at vol 17 anymore! We are know at vol 25 +, do YOU understand what that means.

[Parry999]

Issei was only above maou class in True Queen in volumes 22-24. Similarly Vali only reach god class in EJOD. Where are you getting that their bases are above Euclid?

[DragonOsman]

Yes. Exactly. Their base stats are still below Euclid's, otherwise they'd already be able to bring out more than the Two Heavenly Dragons' full power. Remember that the Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing depend on the user's base stats.