[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

The thing is... would there be any reason for George and Jessica to work together in such a way?

Anyway, I don't think either can really be the main culprit, since they spend too much time around Battler when murders happen (for instance: episode 1 - 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th twilight). Wouldn't be surprised if they lent a hand to one of their parents or their lover though.

Y'know, the process of elimination thing I did before was wrong - I forgot to include The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered (referring to the episode 2 first twilight). In other words... if there is no personality death, noone can be the culprit.

[Renall]

They need not work together. It's entirely possible for there to be competing killers. Van Dyne might frown upon it but of course there could always be a final mastermind outta nowhere (Hideyoshi out of left field, working both George and Jessica into a righteous fervor, but he too is manipulated by Gohda's delicious fondue!).

[Judoh]

I believe Battler noted that a lot of people tend to loaf around the hallways at night. Nobody really has an alibi for the first twilight if that's true.

EDIT: BTW the red in one or two games doesn't eliminate a culprit. Kyrie is dead in the first two games, but that doesn't kill the suspicions about her or her motive to kill. Even if there is red against it in one or two games we still haven't seen the real Rokkenjima yet so process of elimination doesn't work when the stories are fictions.

We should be focusing more on what the story says about the characters that hints toward them then what the red says.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

They need not work together. It's entirely possible for there to be competing killers. Van Dyne might frown upon it but of course there could always be a final mastermind outta nowhere (Hideyoshi out of left field, working both George and Jessica into a righteous fervor, but he too is manipulated by Gohda's delicious fondue!).

Actually, that's more or less something along the lines of what I assumed. George, having the strongest motivation for it (a personal one) could convince the Shannon personality to help him set it up. This satisfies the "Condition under which Battler can forgive Beatrice", as she's being manipulated by George, as well as Battler's rendition of him in Episode 6 as a sincere, but ruthless bastard.

Let's say that Jessica catches wind of the situation her parents are in, as well as the possibility of her aunts and uncles deciding to extort her father. Kanon could potentially be aware of George's planned serial murders, and somehow tips her off that there's a chance it could turn to murder during the family conference.

All of a sudden, Jessica is filled with some kind of psychotic burst of filial piety, and prepares her counterattack against Eva and Hideyoshi (mostly Hideyoshi), then carries it out after the first twilight. This interpretation could work in any game aside from Episode 2, due to the fact that Hideyoshi, Eva, Krauss, and Natsuhi are all taken out right from the start. But then again, we could just leave this possible contradiction up to Jessica being offed as she indulges Kanon in her plan to counterattack, upon which Shannon asserts dominance, killing both Jessica and Kanon for the second twilight.

We're given the impression throughout that Hideyoshi would have been fine with George marrying Shannon, so there's really no clear or foreshadowed motive for George to off him (presumably). And there's plenty of indication that Hideyoshi wouldn't have objected to George marrying Shannon just because Eva did, he's shown standing up to her pretty often, his death in Episode 3 being a striking example of this.

But if it's a revenge killing, then there's certainly room for it to happen. So by this interpretation, we have George as the Mastermind, Shkannon as the accomplice, and Jessica playing the bitter, vengeful survivor with a huge chip on her shoulder? It would explain why Battler went out of his way to show them as straight up, brutal killers under the right circumstances in Episode 6.

Edit: This is also foreshadowed pretty heavily throughout each episode by having Jessica swear to kill whomever she assumes to be the culprit after she sees her parents dead.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

They need not work together. It's entirely possible for there to be competing killers. Van Dyne might frown upon it but of course there could always be a final mastermind outta nowhere (Hideyoshi out of left field, working both George and Jessica into a righteous fervor, but he too is manipulated by Gohda's delicious fondue!).

I know competing killers is possible, but I seriously dislike it as a theory. I mean, if people just turned up dead randomly it could work, but why would a killer follow their rival's epitaph? Indeed, why would they not just kill their rival ASAP?

Originally Posted by Judoh

I believe Battler noted that a lot of people tend to loaf around the hallways at night. Nobody really has an alibi for the first twilight if that's true.

...Except red confirmed victims.

Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Kyrie were all confirmed to have been killed by other people in episode 2.

Kinzo, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Shannon and Kanon were all confirmed dead in episode 3... and none of them commited suicide.

Jessica, George, Genji, Krauss, Maria and Rosa were all confirmed to be homicide victims in episode 5.

Nanjo isn't a murderer.

...Which leaves Battler. And Battler only. In other words, it's not even possible for there to be a mastermind unless it's... Nanjo.

The only weak link in the chain I see is episode 3. Since Kumasawa and Genji aren't murderers, and Kinzo is already dead... I'd say Shannon, Kanon or Gohda must be able to personality die. Take your pick.

EDIT: Actually, as I'm sure Renall will point out, I guess Kinzo could've personality died too. And Kumasawa and Genji could have non murderous personalities. Eh. Is interesting how Shannon and Kanon are never red confirmed to have been "murdered" or "killed by other people", though.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I know competing killers is possible, but I seriously dislike it as a theory. I mean, if people just turned up dead randomly it could work, but why would a killer follow their rival's epitaph? Indeed, why would they not just kill their rival ASAP?


...Except red confirmed victims.

Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Kyrie were all confirmed to have been killed by other people in episode 2.

Kinzo, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Shannon and Kanon were all confirmed dead in episode 3... and none of them commited suicide.

Jessica, George, Genji, Krauss, Maria and Rosa were all confirmed to be homicide victims in episode 5.

Nanjo isn't a murderer.

...Which leaves Battler. And Battler only. In other words, it's not even possible for there to be a mastermind unless it's... Nanjo.

The only weak link in the chain I see is episode 3. Since Kumasawa and Genji aren't murderers, and Kinzo is already dead... I'd say Shannon, Kanon or Gohda must be able to personality die. Take your pick.

If you could take a look at my post right above yours, thats a scenario that could work.

[Judoh]

Like I said the games are fictions and we haven't seen the real Rokkenjima yet so we can't automatically dismiss a character from being the culprit by them being a victim in one or two games if they have hints that say they could be capable of murder.

Besides this game especially shows that quite a lot of people are capable of faking their deaths.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Like I said the games are fictions and we haven't seen the real Rokkenjima yet so we can't automatically dismiss a character from being the culprit by them being a victim in one or two games if they have hints that say they could be capable of murder.

I wouldnt put it past Kin...Er I mean Ryukishi to sprinkle a bunch of too-good-to-be-true red herrings in these later arcs.

[Disz]

My process of elimination says Jessica is Beatrice.

Also,my process of elimination says even is Shkannontrice was true,Jessica either

1.Is involved

or

2.Shannon is lucky.


Battler didn't really want to squeeze Shannons tit's,but they didn't know that.

Shannon was going to let him.So I have to assume those are real.

If you believe in Shkannon,then Jessica is a accomplice no questions asked.

If Shkannon is real Shannon would not let Battler touch her fake goodies,but if Shkannontrice & Jaap(guess who) is real,Jessica stopped Battler so he wouldn't know since Shannon can't deliberately tell him no.




And why I thought of fatman?
He knows as much Maria when it comes to magic and fails to give a reason why.
He can kill his family for love.
He has ''sources''.
He want's a castle.
He can read minds(He somehow knew exactly what Battler was thinking when he saw a plane).
His character song has an evil laugh.
His glasses shine in the light in an evil way.
He was jealous of every dude and detested women(Kinzo).
He probably looks nice in a cape.
In EP2 the servants called him Master.
He suggested leaving the rose garden so that Maria could receive the umbrella.
He kept a candy rapper when he was on a plane for special purposes.

And much more.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by TehChron

I wouldnt put it past Kin...Er I mean Ryukishi to sprinkle a bunch of too-good-to-be-true red herrings in these later arcs.

I'm talking about hints in the first 6 games as a whole. Not just the chiru arcs.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by TehChron

If you could take a look at my post right above yours, thats a scenario that could work.

So... who killed both of them in episode 5, then? Indeed, who performed all non-FT killings in episode 1, considering that both George and Jessica stuck with Battler for basically the entire time? I guess you'd say Shkannon... but then Shkannon killed her "mastermind"?

Originally Posted by Judoh

Besides this game especially shows that quite a lot of people are capable of faking their deaths.

No good - everyone has had a red confirmed non suicide death. No exceptions. And all have had a "killed by other people" except Shannon, Kanon, Kinzo and Gohda (hey, I forgot to post that theory about Gohda being a corpse on wheels).

I guess you could have a different culprit and a massively different setup each time... but, to be honest, that seems ridiculous. Why would they all follow the epitaph?

[Disz]

:< You can stop asking that question now.


Honestly,why would ANYONE go with the epitaph.It makes no sense no matter WHO'S doing it.It's insane.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I'm talking about hints in the first 6 games as a whole. Not just the chiru arcs.

The thing is, we have several characters with completely opposing standpoints and possible motives being shown as capable of murder. Not all of them are culprits. If all of them dying, and being confirmed as dying in red in several games, then, relative to the game board (which is what we're playing on) it's logical to deduce that they could not themselves be the culprit. Since they are in a situation where it would be impossible to achieve whatever their objective may be.

Kraus dies pretty consistently. Usually a lame, off-screen death. But each of his deaths is confirmed with the red, and he's the most logical victim, because his entire situation is to be on the defensive. He also happens to have a stunningly effective defense against his siblings united front efforts, even considering the epitaph being solved.

He therefore can be considered illogical to be the culprit. Not just because he dies, but because it's logical for him to be a victim relative to the circumstances. With using a characters death as a basis, we can then extrapolate what they would have gained by surviving, and using that to determine whether or not they could be the culprit in each Episode.

I agree that eliminating possible suspects based on their death being proclaimed alone is illogical. But to dismiss those eliminations out of hand because "the cat box still has yet to be opened" is simply lazy. At least from my perspective, no offense meant if that isnt what you were implying.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

So... who killed both of them in episode 5, then? Indeed, who performed all non-FT killings in episode 1, considering that both George and Jessica stuck with Battler for basically the entire time? I guess you'd say Shkannon... but then Shkannon killed her "mastermind"?

Well, everyone dies. That's confirmed. And she may have become Beatrice at that point, and decided to off everyone except Battler then for the reasons given in the Episode 1 Tea Party.

The point is, someone arranges for everyone to be offed in the end. Most likely via explosion. Someone had to set that up. Since that's a given, there is therefore a "Motive X" to ensure that there are no survivors.

Oh right, about Episode 5. Well...Knife fight. George kills Maria and Jessica, then Rosa comes in as hes about to off Battler, the two fight to the death, and George gets slashed by Rosa in her World's Best Mom grizzly mode. Battler observes this happening, screams, and mentally suppresses the event while making them all look asleep by covering them with blankets.

Battler isn't the detective in Episode 5, so his viewpoint is not guaranteed to be a factual perspective of events.

[TehChron]

Edit: Please delete

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Disz

:< You can stop asking that question now.


Honestly,why would ANYONE go with the epitaph.It makes no sense no matter WHO'S doing it.It's insane.

Sure it is. But, if it's one culprit, at least there COULD be a plan and a reason for them doing it, even if the reason is difficult to work out. If it's different people... what, they all just happened to have exactly the same plan? Or someone took out the killer, and decided to keep following the same plan the killer was?

Originally Posted by TehChron

Edit: Well, everyone dies. That's confirmed. And she may have become Beatrice at that point, and decided to off everyone except Battler then for the reasons given in the Episode 1 Tea Party.

The point is, someone arranges for everyone to be offed in the end. Most likely via explosion. Someone had to set that up. Since that's a given, there is therefore a "Motive X" to ensure that there are no survivors.

I suppose... although I'd say that'd make Shkannon the culprit overall. Or George is just a really, really crappy mastermind.

Originally Posted by TehChron

Oh right, about Episode 5. Well...Knife fight. George kills Maria and Jessica, then Rosa comes in as hes about to off Battler, the two fight to the death, and George gets slashed by Rosa in her World's Best Mom grizzly mode. Battler observes this happening, screams, and mentally suppresses the event while making them all look asleep by covering them with blankets.

Battler isn't the detective in Episode 5, so his viewpoint is not guaranteed to be a factual perspective of events.

Their corpses weren't moved, though... wasn't the whole point that they were faking their deaths when they were initially "discovered"? That'd be in addition to the problem of how a knife fight can end with perfectly clean throat cuts and no other injuries. And how you can do that while your own throat has been cut... and why Battler would dispose of all evidence of this?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Disz

Battler didn't really want to squeeze Shannons tit's,but they didn't know that.

Shannon was going to let him.So I have to assume those are real.

If you believe in Shkannon,then Jessica is a accomplice no questions asked.

If Shkannon is real Shannon would not let Battler touch her fake goodies,but if Shkannontrice & Jaap(guess who) is real,Jessica stopped Battler so he wouldn't know since Shannon can't deliberately tell him no.

I disagree. First off Battler usually expects the girls to refuse and yell at him. When Shannon didn't say a thing Battler really was torn apart from a "no I must not do it!" and a "why not!". Jessica realized that and hit him in the head before he could violate Shannon's boobs. Especially considering that George was there and Jessica knew well about their relationship this is simply the most probable scenario.

Second Beatrice believes in fate. It is in her nature to accept a sound defeat if something happens to go wrong. Battler touching her fake breast was one of the things Beatrice could accept as fate.
Funny enough it is possible that this tragedy could be avoided if Jessica didn't prevent Battler from touching Shannon's breast.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I guess you could have a different culprit and a massively different setup each time... but, to be honest, that seems ridiculous. Why would they all follow the epitaph?

Why can't we have the same culprit each time and just have one or two episodes where the twilights don't represent that culprit very well?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Sure it is. But, if it's one culprit, at least there COULD be a plan and a reason for them doing it, even if the reason is difficult to work out. If it's different people... what, they all just happened to have exactly the same plan? Or someone took out the killer, and decided to keep following the same plan the killer was?

If there are competing culprits, its reasonable to assume that the second one is establishing a blatant connection between the kill order and the epitaph by the second twilight.

Probably to intentionally screw with the mind of the original culprit.

I suppose... although I'd say that'd make Shkannon the culprit overall. Or George is just a really, really crappy mastermind.

No one ever said George was a genius. I think.

Their corpses weren't moved, though... wasn't the whole point that they were faking their deaths when they were initially "discovered"? That'd be in addition to the problem of how a knife fight can end with perfectly clean throat cuts and no other injuries. And how you can do that while your own throat has been cut... and why Battler would dispose of all evidence of this?

Ahhhh....I was hoping you'd ask that:

Rosa comes into the room to check on Maria, observes George with his evil face preparing to filet Battler. Rosa looks around, and sees Maria's corpse, she goes apeshit.

George, of course, will win the fight. He's trained, a man, and has the knife in the first place. But Rosa is a tenacious, fearless, and damn frightening woman. It's possible that George got the first clean slash in, then Rosa dropped back, and George assumed he was finished with her.

He was wrong.

Rosa, hyped on adrenaline and pure badassery, was still going. The reason she wasn't yelling, and hence why Erika couldnt hear her, was because her vocal cords had been slashed. But that wouldn't stop her.

George, having naively put the knife down for whatever reason, while sitting on the bed, is shocked to see Rosa with her neck slashed open grabbing the knife he loosened his grip upon a mere second ago.

She slashes him back across the neck, creating a mirror wound of her own, probably intentionally.

George, being a lame individual in general, of course goes into shock and then dies. Battler begins to stir from the tussle (it's already implied that Battler slept through the murders if they didnt happen before he went to bed), and sees George, in shock, dead or dying.

Rosa, in her final moments, decides to stay next to Maria and also dies.

Battler screams, goes into mental shock, covers both bodies up with the blankets and accidentally winds up pocketing the knife or something. He suppresses this in his shock.

Everyone comes in to see what the commotion is about, and the game begins. Shannon decides to avenge her beloved George, and goes out of her way to make it look like a magical murder.

[Leafsnail]

Rosa... came in before Battler, though, didn't she? And if Erika could hear if Battler did anything other than sleep, how could she not hear a full knife fight? And how does this solve the problem of the corpses not being moved, considering they're shown to not be there later? And why would Shannon "avenge" George by killing Krauss and Genji, who have nothing to do with it?

EDIT: Rereading the ep4 red text, it turns out that the ep3 first twilight victims (other than Kinzo) were all confirmed murder victims too. Argh.

[Volcanic]

Tangent. A quick, random thought on the whole "Hideyoshi culprit" thing you guys have been mentioning off and on for awhile in this thread.

Think about Hideyoshi's role in the story so far. At best, he's been a Satellite Character for Eva- a character that exists to support her, to show her soft side and prove she's, well, human before we really get proof of it. He barely ever survives long enough to do something without her, and the one time he does he spends the rest of the game either 1. mourning her or 2. trying to find who killed her.

In other words, narrative-wise, he exists to love Eva. Without love, the truth cannot be seen.

Obviously the reason for the murders is related to Battler and his return. But if Hideyoshi is the back-up culprit, there may be a chance that it's related to Eva, just because his interaction with her is literally the only thing building his character.