Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That's why using friends for every one of the officer posts, especially in your first independent command, may not be such a swell idea.

Rein II isn't really in a position to advise Hayate either, let alone saying no to her. Personally, I pretty much gave them a bye on all of that, given the nature of the show, as long as the results were there.

If we assume that Hayate was a good commander, then the difference is that last time, she wasn't in command of friends that she may privately feel an inferiority complex (see Ep14 or thereabouts) towards.

Just so we're clear, which last time are you referring to? Do you mean the airport fire? I'm getting kind of hazy on what evidence there was that Hayate was a good commander after watching so much of Strikers. You did make a pretty good list of what there was to substantiate that in Strikers.

The passages on 'umpiring' seemed like a pretty apt description of what Hayate has been doing since the middle of Strikers. The writers have been pretty consistent in their treatment of her since then.

[Avatar_notADV]

I realized what's really informing Hayate's (and Nanoha's and Fate's) planning.

They really, genuinely, don't believe they can lose.

Oh, they know it's an intellectual possibility. After all, Nanoha can't get a little emo over "maybe I won't come home one day" with Vivio if she doesn't have any idea of her own mortality. But at the end of the day, the three of them have essentially unlimited faith in their own and each others' abilities. When Nanoha makes a crack about being an invincible ace, or tells Hayate that if it comes to it, the three of them will just have to win alone, -she wasn't kidding-.

From that perspective, their deployment in 21+ makes sense. You put Nanoha on one objective, Fate on one objective, Hayate on one objective, and every last other person you have on the least important one. (If anything, why take Vita along? I'll go along with the "umpiring" comment.)

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

If anything, why take Vita along?

Someone has to deal with the reactor while Nanoha is saving Vivio.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

Rein II isn't really in a position to advise Hayate either, let alone saying no to her.

Well, to be fair, she isn't an advisor, deputy commander or chief of staff - the TSAB doesn't use any of these equivalents. From what can be seen, a commander in the TSAB has aides (several ranks lower) and subordinate commanders. That's it.

Personally, I pretty much gave them a bye on all of that, given the nature of the show, as long as the results were there.

We all did. In retrospect, that made us not notice the problem until it was too late.

Just so we're clear, which last time are you referring to? Do you mean the airport fire?

You can use that. In a broader sense, there is a debate on how much command experience Hayate really has. It is more generous to say she has none, yet that practically seems unlikely (Nanoha and Fate were platoon commanders, or at least were qualified to be such).

I'm getting kind of hazy on what evidence there was that Hayate was a good commander after watching so much of Strikers. You did make a pretty good list of what there was to substantiate that in Strikers.

Reread my Aug 20 PM to you.

The passages on 'umpiring' seemed like a pretty apt description of what Hayate has been doing since the middle of Strikers. The writers have been pretty consistent in their treatment of her since then.

Now that I rethink the whole Hayate problem, I think that Hayate is an effective commander, unless it comes to commanding her friends.

Consider Ep2: Hayate was taking command of the firefighters. But if you look at the whole sequence, you'd notice that she does not give any orders to her friends.

Even in Ep21: You'd notice Hayate is directing the Aerial Mages (where is the Air Mage Unit's commander BTW), but she does not give any instructions to her own unit, even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find one incident when Hayate did anything more than assign missions, if that. The scene in Ep14 is almost like Hayate asking for permission to continue to command, with Nanoha and Fate granting it. I can just see some zampolit spitting out Nanoha and Fate's lines in Ep14. You know, "So far, the commander has not made any mistakes. So continue to command proudly!" (I instant-translated it from the original Japanese, so it is different from Yesy, but the gist is the same.)

I think that Avatar is correct in describing Nanoha and Fate's behavior as due to over-optimism (arrogance) regarding their own and each other's abilities. However, I believe that Hayate has faith with other people, yet feels a severe inferiority complex regarding herself in comparison to her friends. As long as she's commanding someone else she's fine, but when it comes to her friends...

Thus, for example in Ep16, Nanoha says she has a commander she can trust. She trusts that Hayate will lead them. However, due to the inferiority complex (which Nanoha and Fate do not see clearly), the truth is that Hayate will not feel up to commanding them when the time comes and so she won't command them effectively, and the house of cards fall down - she can barely umpire, let alone command them.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.

And what orders do you want her to give? Go to the Throne Room together? Go to the Reactor together? Wait for backup (40 mins) before splitting up while holding off hordes of drones and making no progress?
There is such a thing as trusting the person on site, there's also no point is giving orders when those orders could result in worse outcomes than not giving those orders in the first place.

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, to be fair, she isn't an advisor, deputy commander or chief of staff - the TSAB doesn't use any of these equivalents. From what can be seen, a commander in the TSAB has aides (several ranks lower) and subordinate commanders. That's it.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Hayate really could use some sound counsel. A chief of staff, who is a General Staff officer (along the lines of the German General Staff) would be ideal but no such body exists as far as we know. Before that could happen the TSAB would first need to develop sound and thorough doctrine and then train its officers to actually follow it.

We all did. In retrospect, that made us not notice the problem until it was too late.

Sometimes it seems like it would have been better not to have noticed it but even if you ignore that, the writing has far deeper problems like resorting to exposition instead of showing, unnecessary flashbacks and spending time to introduce new characters only to throw them away.

You can use that. In a broader sense, there is a debate on how much command experience Hayate really has. It is more generous to say she has none, yet that practically seems unlikely (Nanoha and Fate were platoon commanders, or at least were qualified to be such).

Does it really seem that unlikely unless we count the Wolkenritter? I don't really see the investigator division rotating its officers to line units unless Hayate requested that with her own initiative. Maybe the Vol.3 DVD ID cards will help clarify matters.

Reread my Aug 20 PM to you.

That's what I was alluding to. I started reading through it once I noticed how little I remembered

Now that I rethink the whole Hayate problem, I think that Hayate is an effective commander, unless it comes to commanding her friends.

Consider Ep2: Hayate was taking command of the firefighters. But if you look at the whole sequence, you'd notice that she does not give any orders to her friends.

In that case, the only direction Nanoha and Fate needed was to know likely places to look for people who needed to be rescued. What Hayate did need to make sure of was that the area was clear so she could put out the fire herself.

Even in Ep21: You'd notice Hayate is directing the Aerial Mages (where is the Air Mage Unit's commander BTW), but she does not give any instructions to her own unit, even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.

I noticed that too and found it very odd. She seemed to know exactly what she was doing with the Aerial Mages yet took the news that her subordinates were splitting up without any visible reaction. She did nothing to ensure that the objectives in the Cradle would be completed. She didn't even ask Nanoha for a situation report or ask whether Nanoha needed additional support. (She may not have been able to do that directly because of AMF but she could have relayed her comms through the fleet which did have two-way comms with Nanoha and Vita inside the ship).

Decentralization of command to speed up decision making with the belief that the officer on the spot probably best able to assess the situation is appropriate but if it becomes clear that a subordinate's actions are mistaken and threaten the success of the overall intent, the commander is required to intervene.

As commander, Hayate should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle.

At the same time though, she's fighting to the point that she's physically exhausted because she's also expected to provide so much of RF6's combat power.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find one incident when Hayate did anything more than assign missions, if that. The scene in Ep14 is almost like Hayate asking for permission to continue to command, with Nanoha and Fate granting it. I can just see some zampolit spitting out Nanoha and Fate's lines in Ep14. You know, "So far, the commander has not made any mistakes. So continue to command proudly!" (I instant-translated it from the original Japanese, so it is different from Yesy, but the gist is the same.)

Isn't it Carim asking on Hayate's behalf? Watching the scene in isolation, I would have difficulty figuring out that Nanoha and Fate are subordinates of Hayate.

I think that Avatar is correct in describing Nanoha and Fate's behavior as due to over-optimism (arrogance) regarding their own and each other's abilities. However, I believe that Hayate has faith with other people, yet feels a severe inferiority complex regarding herself in comparison to her friends. As long as she's commanding someone else she's fine, but when it comes to her friends...

Avatar's description seems kind of meta-, like it's breaking the fourth wall, but it does seem to fit. Belief their infallibility is over-optimistic at best and they've already had experiences to the contrary (even just taking into account the first season).

That said, Hayate should believe in her subordinates but she also needs to believe in herself. I'm not exactly sure why, but the writers seem content on feeding her inferiority complex so much so that, sadly enough, they even have acting inferior now (like choosing to avoid close combat training).

Thus, for example in Ep16, Nanoha says she has a commander she can trust. She trusts that Hayate will lead them. However, due to the inferiority complex (which Nanoha and Fate do not see clearly), the truth is that Hayate will not feel up to commanding them when the time comes and so she won't command them effectively, and the house of cards fall down - she can barely umpire, let alone command them.

Good, it seems like we can all agree with the umpiring terminology.

Originally Posted by Command or Control?

Unable to cope effectively with his responsibilities, the umpire withdraws from them. This may take the form of a retreat to the sidelines... form where the umpire may proffer advice to the sidelines... Alternatively, the umpire may revert to an earlier mode in which he felt more effective and ignore the chain of command.

The first part, Hayate has clearly taken to heart. The alternative clearly isn't happening as she has no problems taking responsibility after the fact and she doesn't micromanage her subordinates.

Yet the balance of that quote fits quite well:

The superior is such as case will be overwhelmed with the details of work that could be done equally well by subordinates, to the neglect of his own proper duties; the subordinate is alternatively idle and overworked, ceases to think how the business of his department might be improved, acquiesces in what he knows mistaken, and is only concerned with carrying on his duties sufficiently well not to get in trouble.

Hayate may very well not be umpired herself but she's acting as though she's both an umpire and the subordinate of one.

This fits even better:

With brigade pitted against brigade, the divisional commander had no opportunity to practice his craft; rather, he acted as a trainer to his subordinates. He would set the scenarios, oversee their course and make criticisms afterwards. In short, he was an umpire and his considerable practice of his role, rather than his short time as a commander, may well have predisposed him to confusing the two. Furthermore, he was not tested in these maneuvers, nor was he bonded to his formation through shared experience. The sense of separateness, an important aspect of umpiring, was deeply ingrained through theses exercises.

If you think about it, it describes what's happening with Nanoha and Fate pretty well too. Training is part of commanding a unit but it is not a commander's primary purpose. It is also important for the commander to have realistic training of their own.

Is RF6 fundamentally flawed? Its implementation is certainly so.

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

And what orders do you want her to give? Go to the Throne Room together? Go to the Reactor together? Wait for backup (40 mins) before splitting up while holding off hordes of drones and making no progress?

There is such a thing as trusting the person on site, there's also no point is giving orders when those orders could result in worse outcomes than not giving those orders in the first place.

I've answered what I expect Hayate to have done that in my reply to arkhangelsk. For convenience's sake, here it is (with a few alterations),

Decentralization of command to speed up decision making with the belief that the officer on the spot probably best able to assess the situation is appropriate but if it becomes clear that a subordinate's actions are mistaken and threaten the success of the overall intent, the commander is required to intervene. You can trust your subordinates but you shouldn't just have blind faith in them. The most certain thing of combat is that it will be uncertain.

Hayate has no real idea what is happening inside the Cradle and she hasn't done anything about that. As commander, she should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle. Hayate didn't even ask Nanoha for a situation report or ask if she needed additional support (Hayate may not have been able to do that directly because of AMF but she could have relayed her comms through the fleet which did have two-way comms with Nanoha and Vita inside the Cradle). Inaction to the contrary, having sent Nanoha and Vita into the Cradle didn't discharge Hayate of her responsibilities as a commander.

[Avatar_notADV]

Here's another facet of the relationship...

Hayate's in command of Nanoha and Fate because she has slightly superior power, and administrative skills, and her career path took her in a different direction. She's not operating under the illusion that she has any kind of moral "right" to tell them what to do. She's their superior officer, not their superior.

On top of that, you can make a very real argument that she's also their kouhai. Nanoha and Fate have been at it longer, and definitely have more combat experience, than Hayate. Socially, from a Japanese perspective, Hayate is supposed to be listening to Nanoha and Fate and doing what they say - even though she's technically their superior in a military system, they're her social superiors.

Normal militaries have this problem too. When a green lieutenant is assigned to a unit, one of the things that he has to learn is that he really does need to listen to his sergeants, and take their recommendations, and not overrule them unless he has a damned fine reason to do so. That doesn't mean to play doormat, but giving them free rein when their experience is applicable.

This is further complicated by the fact that Nanoha has a better decision-making record than Hayate and a much better one than Hayate's superiors. If Nanoha had not been prepared to tell TSAB command to piss up a rope, Fate would be dead. If Nanoha and Fate had not done essentially the same thing, Hayate would be dead, along with everything she knew/cared about, plus all of Tokyo would be a smoking crater. So not only does Hayate have subordinates who won't necessarily do what she tells them to do if they feel strongly about it, but ones who she knows are necessarily right to have done so in the past - i.e. she can't even make the claim that "oh, but following orders is the most important thing!" Not without becoming a total hypocrite and losing all their respect anyway, that is.

Ironically, Hayate's actually quite a good commander for Nanoha and Fate, simply because they weigh personal considerations so heavily; with their commander as their friend, they have to keep in mind that anything they do that's too out of line will splash on her too. Assigning them to a random CO would just mean that they'd go do what they want anyway. (In a conventional military, you'd drum an officer like that out of the service. But you can't do that with Nanoha or Fate, because then they're TOTALLY outside your chain of command and running around without a limiter - i.e. even more likely to turn up at an inconvenient moment and make you look really stupid.)

Overall this hasn't been too much of an issue in the series, because nobody's placed them in that kind of situation yet. But (by way of example) if Nanoha is just about to stop the Cradle and Chrono orders Hayate to order Nanoha out of there, Hayate's not going to give that order - and even if she did, Nanoha wouldn't follow it anyway. Of course, Chrono knows all that too, so HE wouldn't give the order, and I'm not sure exactly who's up from him that might give that order themselves (most of the "unfriendly" TSAB command is dead, huh?) Even though, from a purely analytical perspective, it would be the smart thing to do.

Of course, if Nanoha was about doing the smart thing, there'd be a little cross somewhere with "Fate Testarossa" on it instead of all these hot adult Nanoha/Fate pics floating around in the image thread. I'm happy with it this way. ;p

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Hayate really could use some sound counsel. A chief of staff, who is a General Staff officer (along the lines of the German General Staff) would be ideal but no such body exists as far as we know. Before that could happen the TSAB would first need to develop sound and thorough doctrine and then train its officers to actually follow it.

It is difficult having a General Staff in the Midchildran system. Never mind getting their officers to actually learn basic tactics, even after they revamp the education system, they face a great contradiction called "Magic".

Magic is highly correlated with intelligence, especially the parts regarding spatial, intelligence, creativity, multitasking ... crack mages thus have high probability of being good General Staff. Yet you'd basically pull them off the line once you send them to staff.

If you pick intelligent guys that are not crack mages, they won't have frontline Lost Logia experience. Without that, they'd have trouble having the legitimacy from experience to influence a frontline crack mage.

Second problem, the TSAB is more police than military, thus the levels of command to influence are squads and platoons, with anything higher being a real minority.

But back to the problem of Chief of Staff: Who could we send? Certainly not anyone we know - they have other duties. Random AAA-S vet mage ... maybe but I bet just the thoughts of limiters and serving under 19 year olds will put him off. Random <AA mage / non-mage = not enough practical experience on Lost Logia matters.

Does it really seem that unlikely unless we count the Wolkenritter? I don't really see the investigator division rotating its officers to line units unless Hayate requested that with her own initiative. Maybe the Vol.3 DVD ID cards will help clarify matters.

It is more like during investigation, they'd have to get a few grunts to help search buildings and the like.

In that case, the only direction Nanoha and Fate needed was to know likely places to look for people who needed to be rescued. What Hayate did need to make sure of was that the area was clear so she could put out the fire herself.

Well, that's why no one commented except in positive terms. However, when one looks back at it after everything, we start to see the seeds of another pattern. It is similar to how splitting up is not necessarily the wrong decision in various episodes, but when you see the sheer frequency of splitting, you start to realize the true pattern...

As commander, Hayate should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle.

To be fair, what personal resources. Nobody except Quattro knows what's happening in the Cradle...

If you think about it, it describes what's happening with Nanoha and Fate pretty well too. Training is part of commanding a unit but it is not a commander's primary purpose. It is also important for the commander to have realistic training of their own.

Is RF6 fundamentally flawed? Its implementation is certainly so.

Well, despite its flaws, it worked (Ep25-26). In the end, Hayate made at least one right decision. She included enough combat power (not to mention Divine Luck from 7Arcs) that even her complete disregard of correct deployments, the responsibilities of command ... etc couldn't sink the battle for her.

Well, maybe Season 4.

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It is difficult having a General Staff in the Midchildran system. Never mind getting their officers to actually learn basic tactics, even after they revamp the education system, they face a great contradiction called "Magic".

Magic is highly correlated with intelligence, especially the parts regarding spatial, intelligence, creativity, multitasking ... crack mages thus have high probability of being good General Staff. Yet you'd basically pull them off the line once you send them to staff.

If you pick intelligent guys that are not crack mages, they won't have frontline Lost Logia experience. Without that, they'd have trouble having the legitimacy from experience to influence a frontline crack mage.

Whatever the source of their mages, they would have to rotate between general staff and line positions. To do anything else would both alienate the general staff officers from the line officers to an unacceptable degree and leave the general staff officers without any real command experience.

A general staff wouldn't be of any real use until the TSAB has a sound body of doctrine to draw. For that to happen, the TSAB would need to be able to draw the right lessons from its experiences and train its forces properly so that it can test them and then learn from those.

Second problem, the TSAB is more police than military, thus the levels of command to influence are squads and platoons, with anything higher being a real minority.

No disagreement here.

But back to the problem of Chief of Staff: Who could we send? Certainly not anyone we know - they have other duties. Random AAA-S vet mage ... maybe but I bet just the thoughts of limiters and serving under 19 year olds will put him off. Random <AA mage / non-mage = not enough practical experience on Lost Logia matters.

If they don't trust Hayate, it would be all the more reason to have a general staff officer equivalent as chief of staff... that is... if they could find one

Well, that's why no one commented except in positive terms. However, when one looks back at it after everything, we start to see the seeds of another pattern. It is similar to how splitting up is not necessarily the wrong decision in various episodes, but when you see the sheer frequency of splitting, you start to realize the true pattern...

I don't quite follow exactly. Could you elaborate a bit?

To be fair, what personal resources. Nobody except Quattro knows what's happening in the Cradle...

That's the problem. She left herself with no credible reserve. She didn't have any uncommitted troops as far as she was aware of besides Shamal.

Vice and Zafira weren't even aware that they would be able to fight until half way through the episode, let alone Hayate. It might be nice to assign Shamal and Zafira's actions to Hayate taking advantage of a good opportunity by committing them at the right time in the right place once she was aware that they were available. However, we don't really know if their actions were independent or not and with the writers usual intent when it comes to Hayate...

Although I did kind of like how she just went in herself finally. Sometimes there's no replacement for personal observation. Once she was unisoned, she had no problems moving through the Cradle unescorted. Maybe she should have kept Rein closer at hand instead of sending her off to fail with Signum.

Well, despite its flaws, it worked (Ep25-26). In the end, Hayate made at least one right decision. She included enough combat power (not to mention Divine Luck from 7Arcs) that even her complete disregard of correct deployments, the responsibilities of command ... etc couldn't sink the battle for her.

Well, maybe Season 4.

Kind of hard for her to defy plot edict, isn't it? Yes, the battle was won, yet the victory feels tainted because the artifice of having Hayate's decisions working based not on their merit, but because the plot dictated that she should win, was all too apparent.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Mirificus

Kind of hard for her to defy plot edict, isn't it? Yes, the battle was won, yet the victory feels tainted because the artifice of having Hayate's decisions working based not on their merit, but because the plot dictated that she should win, was all too apparent.

To be really fair about all the Hayate shafting, I'm convinced that it is done after detailed research into not only the likings, but fan perception.

I mean, just go to FanFiction.net and let me know when you find one FanFic that portrayed Hayate in a truly positive light. Because I hadn't located it yet.

I remember her remaining at CP while Nanoha and Fate were beaten to near death by Scarlietti in Satashi's Fanfics, and then left out in their final confrontation with Scarlietti.

I remember her being beaten and nearly killed by some random guys with weapons that speak Spanish. Some random OC character that happened to be a family relation saved her there.

Or how about her being the only person to wimp out in PTSD against the French-speaking "Gospel" devices or whatever. Yes, I know the opposition was tough in that one, but PTSD?

I just read a recent FanFic-in-progress where she's beaten again by random mages from a random rival mage group.

And of course the others that treat Hayate as a cosplay queen and all that. The only one that comes close is Redemption.

The only possibility is the Academy Blues series, and that's because it hadn't caught my favor and thus I hadn't skimmed it, but even if it was, that only makes one.

Individually, the stories have reasons and needs to shaft Hayate (thus I can't really fault them on this basis). Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web, when they are taken in aggregate by a 7Arcs researching for ideas and views, what would they conclude?

Are you going to read that stuff and conclude fans think of Hayate as a great commander that heroically goes forward and fights on the front line? Doubt it. That's probably why they shafted her - they read this kind of FanFic and decided that's what the fans think of Hayate and altered their image of her to match...

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Or how about her being the only person to wimp out in PTSD against the French-speaking "Gospel" devices or whatever. Yes, I know the opposition was tough in that one, but PTSD?

WAIT! I have a share in that fic! And I know that that isn't the end!

While I didn't exactly agree with Saint X's portrayal if Hayate as such, he said that she'll grow from that experience, and become a leader from there. In a way, it was inspired by Simon of Gurren-Lagann's march to power. X convinced me that a sweet Kansai-ben girl is no warrior, but both of us agreed that Hayate had the strength to grow from it.

In fact, she's one of the key plot holders in the story. It's because of StrikerS' release that we had to HALT production of AlternateS so that we don't start stumbling over canon obstacles; if StrikerS NEVER existed, I'm sure we'll be seeing Hayate in a different light. We just need 3 more chapters to get to the part where she wakes up and "arrives".

Also, for my FileS series of mini-fics, I planned Hayate to be the planner and overseer, while still in keeping with her good nature. And I need more time to write my fics beyond mere prologues! Like X, I stopped the FileS once StrikerS came out.

She IS the de facto leader of the Aces and the Wolkies after all; there's no way I would've let Hayate remained a wimp!

Granted, there's no way 7Arcs would've known that. But I'm just a little peeved because X and I planned otherwise, but we ended up lumped with the other OOCers. We just needed time...

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

To be really fair about all the Hayate shafting, I'm convinced that it is done after detailed research into not only the likings, but fan perception.

I mean, just go to FanFiction.net and let me know when you find one FanFic that portrayed Hayate in a truly positive light. Because I hadn't located it yet.

they read this kind of FanFic and decided that's what the fans think of Hayate and altered their image of her to match...

I don't know about you, but I consider that opinion to be slightly naive. Throughout the production of StrikerS, the perception of fans putside Japan was irrelavant. The opinions of people on this forum are nothing to them, the potrayal of their characters in fanfics on Fanficion.net mean less than nothing to them. It has less than a hundred fics for a three year-old franchise. That you can say that the Japanese creators even bother to read english fanfics and consider it to be a reliable guage of fan perception boggles my mind.
If you have examples from Japanese fandom showing that this was what Japanese fans wanted and that 7arcs really was catering to it, you might have a case. But I think you don't now.
Furthermore, take a look at the dates of when those example fanfics of yours were uploaded. For most, it was after StrikerS had already shown how shafted Hayate was. The fanfic writers were reacting to what they saw, not the other way around. No amount of research by 7arcs could have uncovered anything like what you said when those very fics did not exist until after they were done shafting her.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I don't know about you, but I consider that opinion to be slightly naive. Throughout the production of StrikerS, the perception of fans putside Japan was irrelavant. The opinions of people on this forum are nothing to them, the potrayal of their characters in fanfics on Fanficion.net mean less than nothing to them. It has less than a hundred fics for a three year-old franchise. That you can say that the Japanese creators even bother to read english fanfics and consider it to be a reliable guage of fan perception boggles my mind.

I'd agree. But I also said:
Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web

From what little of what I've seen of Japanese fandom, it also isn't particularly flattering. And of course, if Japanese fandom really did the complete opposite, my theory falls. But I see little sign of it.

Furthermore, take a look at the dates of when those example fanfics of yours were uploaded. For most, it was after StrikerS had already shown how shafted Hayate was. The fanfic writers were reacting to what they saw, not the other way around. No amount of research by 7arcs could have uncovered anything like what you said when those very fics did not exist until after they were done shafting her.

Some are, I'd agree. But some, such as AlternateS, definitely are written before StrikerS. Some are also written around the middle, sometime before they started really shafting Hayate, such as Satashi's, which ended in June (that's about Ep12).

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kha

WAIT! I have a share in that fic! And I know that that isn't the end!

I didn't know that at first reading, but I can see that from the fact your Silvanus is in the story.

While I didn't exactly agree with Saint X's portrayal if Hayate as such, he said that she'll grow from that experience, and become a leader from there. In a way, it was inspired by Simon of Gurren-Lagann's march to power. X convinced me that a sweet Kansai-ben girl is no warrior, but both of us agreed that Hayate had the strength to grow from it.

As I've said before, each story probably has its own plot and character growth necessities, so it is not like I blame you or Saint X, or the other guys who wrote the other FanFics that got put up as examples in my previous post. Let's get this out of the way first - I enjoyed many of them.

Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.

And of course, as JimmyC said, all of us put together probably don't make up 1% of any influences that tipped StrikerS one way or another. If my theory is right, it is the much more prolific Japanese writers (however, I've yet to bump into a Japanese Nanoha Fanfic, even though I've seen a couple of Nanoha parody comics, none of which are all that flattering in this respect either - cosplay Hayate may be good for a few laughs but it won't make 7Arcs write her nicely), that made the difference, not really us.

But then, if Chaos2Frozen can blame our comments here for causing an overabundance of NxF, I can certainly point to the FanFiction made here... not so much because we made a difference ourselves, but that we are probably representative of those Japanese that made the difference

In fact, she's one of the key plot holders in the story. It's because of StrikerS' release that we had to HALT production of AlternateS so that we don't start stumbling over canon obstacles; if StrikerS NEVER existed, I'm sure we'll be seeing Hayate in a different light. We just need 3 more chapters to get to the part where she wakes up and "arrives".

I saw the hints of the next arc. But the next arc was never published.

There is always something called Alternate Universe (it is AlternateS after all), you know. Now that StrikerS is nearly done (and rather uh, sublime), you know which places you have to avoid, and can branch off. I for one would like to see an ending.

Granted, there's no way 7Arcs would've known that. But I'm just a little peeved because X and I planned otherwise, but we ended up lumped with the other OOCers. We just needed time...

Well, if you believe there's a 4th season, here's your chance to just be 0.01% of the force influenceing 7Arcs

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhanglesk

I'd agree. But I also said:
Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web

Forgive for not mentioning this clearly in my previous post. But I consider that assumption to be highly unwarranted. Which is why I wrote that. To extrapolate a global pattern based on less than 10 out of 80 fanfics on fanfiction.net seems to be the height of arrogance to me. To then consider that to be a majority fan desire is, well... beyond my ability to describe.

From what little of what I've seen of Japanese fandom, it also isn't particularly flattering. And of course, if Japanese fandom really did the complete opposite, my theory falls. But I see little sign of it.

Unflattering in what sense? As in lacking creativity? Unflattering in their potrayal of Hayate? Are you seriously suggesting some 7arcs staff member going, "the majority of fan material indicates interest in Hayate not doing well in commanding, we should pursue that angle"?

Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.

Your biggest problem is there aren't as many "Hayate as a wimp" stories as you imagine. There were even less pre-StrikerS. If anything, the major trend such a report would state is a preference for NxF interaction. You gave only one, one, example of a "Hayate as a wimp" fic that was written pre-StrikerS, AlternateS. That's barely 2.5% of the less than 80 Nanoha fics on fanfic.net at the time. Even extrapolating that to a global pattern as you did, it can hardly be considered a major trend, right?
And about the fics written as StrikerS aired? Consider this, episode production is usually ahead of airing by 4 to 8 weeks. By the time the creators can guage fan reaction to an episode, it's already too late to make major changes to the next 4 episodes, at least.

With your detailed criticism of tactics in various discussions here, I'm suprised you were unaware of the dangers of making an unwarranted assumption.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Forgive for not mentioning this clearly in my previous post. But I consider that assumption to be highly unwarranted. Which is why I wrote that. To extrapolate a global pattern based on less than 10 out of 80 fanfics on fanfiction.net seems to be the height of arrogance to me. To then consider that to be a majority fan desire is, well... beyond my ability to describe.

That's mostly because most of the others do not portray Hayate or only portray her marginally. Obviously, FanFics that do not portray Hayate one way or another do not get counted - they cannot even really be counted as "Abstain" because for all we know, they just hadn't written a story yet.

A weak trend, if it has no measurable countertrend, can be used as the basis for calculations. If there was a significant "resistance movement", any "shaft Hayate" movement will require overwhelming superiority to convince the writers to take the risk. But if there's no measurable resistance, even a moderate or weak trend may be enough to push them over the edge.

Unflattering in what sense? As in lacking creativity? Unflattering in their potrayal of Hayate? Are you seriously suggesting some 7arcs staff member going, "the majority of fan material indicates interest in Hayate not doing well in commanding, we should pursue that angle"?

From the last two paragraphs, you seem to confuse "perception" (which I'm measuring) rather than "desire" (which is something else). I would think that few hate Hayate enough to desire that she stank. In fact, I think most people do not particularly desire NxF to be a lesbian couple - after all, "straights" are still the majority in this world. But perception is a whole different hobbyhorse.

Here's what I do see as a possibility, assuming I'm right in my presumption (of course, I could be wrong - I can hardly scan all of Japanese fandom even if my Japanese improved from "able to make out comics" to fluency):
Ep 12 ends, and say the Ep16-17 planning cycle begins:

• Director: "OK, in Ep16, we have the Numbers attack Ground Forces HQ and roll over RF6's HQ."
• "12 Numbers against Ground Forces HQ? Not possible."
• Director: "What if we shaft the HQ? They have no defenses against ground divers. Their reactor has no security. Everyone inside has to be disarmed..."
• "Uh, OK, but who would believe this uberincompetence, even in a mahou shoujo anime. At the very least, we need a scapegoat."
• Director: "Regius. We made him a butthole since his debut Ep10. It won't be hard to convince the audience this is all his fault..."
• "Uhh... we are planning to have Hayate's RF6 join in the security effort, right?"
• Director: "Yeah, so what."
• "She'd have to agree to this moronic deployment."
• Director: "True. Could be a problem. Contact Intelligence. Have them research what our fans think of Hayate."
• Intelligence: "Won't be a problem sir. Contrary to our initial hopes, Hayate is not a very popular character. It is obvious. There are like 10 H-doujin for Nanoha and Fate for every one of Hayate's. Most FanFics concentrate on NxF. In most cases, Hayate is definitely a sideline character."
• "Yeah, we kind of noticed that in our pre StrikerS survey, but she's still nominally a "good guy" commander, not like Regius. Would people mind us making her an imbecile?"
• Intelligence: "No worries. The few people that do write about Hayate do not write about her in a positive light. Never mind H-doujin, they make every character an idiot so as to have their cheap, lame sex scenes. In popular webcomics, she's portrayed as a cosplay queen who thinks of little other than cosplay - even in a parody, choosing to over-emphasize this trait says a lot."
• Director: "What about the gaijin. They aren't much, but they do buy our DVDs, albeit at half price or thereabouts. And they are often more discerning customers - many of them actually analyze the tactics used. Thus they are a fast way to gain some insight regarding our smarter Japanese customers without the pain of wading through 2ch. Might want to care a bit about them too."
• Intelligence: "Oh, no worries. They are about the same as our fans - they care only about NxF. The few of them who do write about her ... look at this one, AlternateS [Sorry there, Kha ]. We arguably tried to portray the opposite in Nanoha A's, we wrote the OPPOSITE in the A's to StrikerS manga, and still this happened."
• "Anything to refute this hypothesis? One FanFic sounds a bit weak."
• Intelligence: "Given the limited total pool, of which some are short stories, some are light stories and so many are NxF, and all we are lucky to have one for the measurement! Furthermore, not a single person complained about that characterization - Westerners are picky, and if they had a problem with the characterization at least ONE would have spoken up by now! The overall indications are clear. Japanese or gaijin, no one cares if Hayate suddenly disappeared off the face of Midchildra or turns into a dolt. And no, there's absolutely nothing to substantiate the opposite hypothesis. At least some people disagree rather violently with NxF!"
• Director: "Right, let's give it a try then. Shaft both Regius and Hayate. Put in action and lots of Subaru angst to divert the few who cares about these things, got it? Intelligence, continue trying to confirm or deny the hypothesis!"
• All: "Sir, yes sir!"

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkangelsk

If there was a significant "resistance movement", any "shaft Hayate" movement will require overwhelming superiority to convince the writers to take the risk. But if there's no measurable resistance, even a moderate or weak trend may be enough to push them over the edge.

So this is what your arguement has fallen to? First, you write as if the majority of fics have "Hayate as a wimp". Then, I point out that only one such fic was ever in a position to influence the creators, unlikely as it may be. Now, you argue that a "weak" trend is good enough? Can't you see how much your argument has dissipated already? Why do you insist on blaming fans for this situation? Are you willing to grasp at straws just to get the last word in? Just let it go already!

[Nagumo]

... I am very confused, I believe that Hayate got portrayed as incompetent accidentally simply due to the show's failure to set aside enough time for development, particularly in showing how Hayate got her rank and how good of a commander she is.

Anyways, just remember the MST3K mantra: It's just a show, I should really just relax.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

So this is what your arguement has fallen to? First, you write as if the majority of fics have "Hayate as a wimp".

Now you are putting words in my mouth that I've never said. I showed several examples that showed an ongoing trend. Because most fics IIRC are not about Hayate, it is obvious that a majority of fics cannot by definition have it.

Can't you see how much your argument has dissipated already? Why do you insist on blaming fans for this situation?

Because IMO it is very hard to believe that they would dare shaft a main character to the extent they did unless they reconnoitered and thought it would be relatively safe to do so. You can begin shafting at any time, but shafting someone that badly is not easily reversed.

As for the accident theory, it is hard to see how making comics (Ep14.5) like not being able to beat Caro in 1v1 is some kind of accident.

And why do you think I'm blaming the fans? I've made every effort to show that I'm not blaming anyone for anything. If I'm right, then it is just something that ... happened.

I'd also confess that due to a miscalculation of episode scheduling, I thought there were two FanFiction.net Fics before the planning phase for Ep17 (which everyone appreciates the criticality of), and there was actually only one with the other about halfway through (thanks for pointing it out). However, I would still disagree with you that post Ep-13 FanFics (and other fanwork, discussion ... etc) have no effect on the situation (if one assumes such fanwork, even 2chan fanwork, had any effect on the story to begin with).

Obviously, it is too late for Ep17, but they could still reverse course partially for Ep21 (a few changes would already make Hayate look much better even if the same ultimate decision is employed) and later if they felt like it, in which case perceived blame for Ep17 would probably go to Regius. Once Ep21 went, it became very hard to reverse, because Regius is no longer there as a dartboard.

One more thing to consider. You will notice that at the last ditch Hayate shows up for Ep25. They even reversed their comic position (Ep14.5, the one that says Hayate can only use magic standing - obviously Ep25 says different).

Why then? What has changed? Could it be that the uproar from Ep21 managed to reach 7Arcs' ears (plus the echoes of weeks thereafter), making them realize their misread just in time to make one last hasty correction? Maybe. It is one of the things we would never know.

Are you willing to grasp at straws just to get the last word in? Just let it go already!

Very well... as you wish.