2011-02-20, 06:56 | Link #3061 | |||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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The attempt to implement Marxism was born, in my estimation, of a somewhat arrogant mentality and of looking at the issue at face value. Indeed you're right, it's not really the case that empiricism or the scientific method are wrong, but rather how people view them. Quote:
The point is not to find an alternative to empiricism; we already know that casting spells will not manufacture gold or allow one to fly, but rather to rectify the very mentality or consciousness that people hold towards existence. It would be wrong, in my view, to approach God or the divine as though they could be understood in human terms. Likewise, it would be wrong to hold empiricism and science as a god, which I feel some people do even if they would never admit to such a thing. The two concepts should and do ideally occupy different levels in man's awareness. Newton, for instance, used empirical methods to correctly determine physical laws, but simultaneously acknowledged a divine nature behind it all. He was willing to admit that what he discovered was neither whole nor absolute, and this is how scientists and people in general should conduct themselves. Likewise, religious people would be idiots to deny, in the modern age, the efficacy of science and its method. They should not place faith on the same level as science, for the two are fundamentally different and should take different places in human intellect and character. Quote:
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2011-02-20, 07:40 | Link #3062 | |||
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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NOMA only exists as a concept because there is no evidence for the existence of a deity. You're just trying to defend an indefensible point by trying to place it beyond the scope of rational inquiry, without any justification for it. Quote:
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2011-02-20, 09:06 | Link #3064 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I'd say that if you're letting one man's crusade erode your faith, you probably didn't have as much faith to begin with. Better to start reexamining your beliefs now before you have a crisis at a bad time, and choose whether to continue believing or to put it down for good.
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2011-02-20, 09:31 | Link #3065 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I think general reminder of the rules are in order, here.
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2011-02-20, 09:40 | Link #3066 | ||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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I get the feeling you're confused as to what exactly I'm speaking against here. I am not challenging science or empiricism. I am not trying to validate the specific claims of any one religion. What I am trying to dispel is the notion that religious faith as a general concept is negative or inherently contrary to intelligent thought.
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At some point, these mysteries escape the scope of human perception, and language, which forms the cornerstone of our science and rationality, is no longer effective in portraying them. In the past, the sky was the limit, since no one could hope to go beyond it to see what exactly was going on up there. Now, even as science advances, the very nature of being and its semantics are still in question. There is supposedly a Buddhist saying that "Buddha is in the heart". If the soul cannot be discerned, then I would say that the divine truly does exist within this unknowable region. Why must a god exist then, you say? Because there is order in the universe, and there would have to be some sort of "intelligence" behind the laws of matter. It seems like you wanted an explanation on why God should exist. I have summarily provided that explanation. Quote:
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2011-02-20, 10:37 | Link #3067 | ||||||
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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Yet again, petitio principii. On what basis do you claim that faith can answer the questions science cannot? Quote:
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2011-02-20, 11:29 | Link #3068 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Okay everyone, just calm down. The purpose of this thread is not to sanctify or vilify Religion. It is merely to discuss our personal beliefs in an atmosphere of equality and possible acceptance. That having been said, please cease with trying to prove faith as logical or illogical. Personal anecdotes aside, the value, purpose or validity of religion is not up for debate in this thread.
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2011-02-20, 11:58 | Link #3069 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Personally I had a lot of reasons to turn into an atheist, but mostly due to the God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. |
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2011-02-20, 13:13 | Link #3070 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Here's the first part of a multi-part interview with this gentlman: I must admit he makes an excellent argument for those openminded enough to consider what he's saying.
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2011-02-20, 13:31 | Link #3071 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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^This is not a place to discuss the validity of Darwinism or Evolution (outside of strict personal beliefs).
That being said, Berlinkski is a bit of a hack. He's got a great disposition, but his core arguments always focus on not trying to disprove what we know (or think we know), but rather emphasizing constantly what we do not know or lack the proper means of knowing (Berlinkski has an obsession with transitional fossils that borders on the silly (a recent episode of Futurama made fun of the quirk, albeit with a composite character of many evolution naysayers)). |
2011-02-20, 15:00 | Link #3072 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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2011-02-20, 15:14 | Link #3073 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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As Nightwish posted originally: Quote:
The point of posting Berlinski is that he's telling people to question, and that is a good thing. During my own personal spiritual journey, Berlinski caused me to question both theism and atheism, and realize that the fact is we do not have the answers. Therefore, we must turn to faith of one sort or another. Be that faith religious or irreligious. Like it or not atheism is still faith or belief. Both Theism and Atheism are arguments to ignorance. Theists put forward the claim: Because there is no evidence against G, therefore G must exist. While atheists put forward the claim: Because there is no evidence of G, therefore G must not exist. Both are logical fallacies, and THAT is whay Berlinski is saying. Because of people like Berlinski I did not become an atheist when I left the Thelemic belief system. Instead I chose to look towards spiritualism and became a Zen Buddhist (two decades ago). I followed that religion for a very short time until I was introduced to Aryeh Kaplan's work (Meditation and the Bible) by a friend from Israel. After that I became immersed in reading both scientific (mostly theoretical physics) and Kabbalistic works. It's from all the research over the years that I gained a Spinozian view of nature and the possibility that a thing beyond nature may have created it. Whether that thing is intelligent or divine, as we understand those concepts, is another matter entirely. This is why people like Berlinski are a breath of fresh air compared to the fundamentalist theists and fundamentalist atheists (esp. Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens). Challenging the status quo ought to be the mantra of all skeptics and it should include challenging science as well as belief, which is why I question everything and do not believe anything out of blind devotion.
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2011-02-21, 02:45 | Link #3076 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2011-02-21, 02:58 | Link #3078 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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With the recent release of a certain game by NISA, I have new goddesses to worship : There! My new goddesses! And they are cute too! Quote:
It is not an explanation. It is your purview.
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2011-02-21, 03:11 | Link #3080 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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