Character Discussion - Kallen

[Let'sFightingLove]

Originally Posted by yvj

Standing next to each other is up for viewer interpretation?

That's called a strawman argument you purposely delegated the responsibility to for the sake of wishful thinking.

You know full well what I'm implying; you simply choose to blissfully ignore it in the name of your arbitrary defense.

[bladeofdarkness]

but the last PD confirms that the wedding picture was nothing

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove

Although I would personally detest the idea, it seems as though it was left up to viewer interpretation at the end of the series.

It's true there was little development and romantic notions were lacking, but who's to say what happened after the closure.

Standing next to each other is up for viewer interpretation?

Besides the last PD put an end to all that.

Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove

That's called a strawman argument you purposely delegated the responsibility to for the sake of wishful thinking.

You know full well what I'm implying; you simply choose to blissfully ignore it in the name of your arbitrary defense.

Where?

Kallen standing beside Gino in that picture was the heralded point for their canon basis. That's what Kid Ying was talking about. That has been discredited countless times.

Now you jump in and say "it's left up to the viewer"

What am I missing? Where is my straw man?

The second half of your statement is an endorsement of fanfiction. Nothing is wrong with that.

[Let'sFightingLove]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but the last PD confirms that the wedding picture was nothing

Wasn't talking about it.

[Let'sFightingLove]

Originally Posted by yvj

What am I missing? Where is my straw man?

You chose to neglect the possibility without a basis to fall back upon

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by yvj

What am I missing? Where is my straw man?

Couldn't resist.

[bladeofdarkness]

the argument of "we cant know what happened after the closure" is not the problem
ANYTHING could have happened techniclly
thats left to fan fiction
the problem was that some were claiming that the wedding picture was CANON EVIDENCE that there is something between kallen and gino
which IS a problem
and the last PD shows that several months after the wedding picture, kallen views gino with non romantic, and i would even go so far as to say, slightly antagonistic feelings
there isnt a word that they exchange during that final PD that isnt either hostile or dismissive
HENCE, the wedding picture (the basis of such canon claims) is not longer up to interpretaion

@nobody
roflcopter

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove

You chose to neglect the possibility without a basis to fall back upon

Neglect fanfiction? I won't do that.

But I think I see what you're saying even if something has a minuscule possibility of happening. Based upon the reasoning of there having no real evidence for it. The fact is there is a possibility.

Like there's a possibility the sun won't rise tomorrow.

[Let'sFightingLove]

I wasn't the one to present the proposition.

It's your job to tell me, not me you.

What I'm simply saying is that you're repudiating the EDIT: meager possibility as mere nonsense, without reason.

[bladeofdarkness]

all we are saying is that the "meager possibility" can not be derived from the wedding picture
because its PROVABLY WRONG

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Let'sFightingLove

I wasn't the one to present the proposition.

It's your job to tell me, not me you.

What I'm simply saying is that you're repudiating the fact as mere nonsense, without reason.

I'm going to chalk this up as you being new (and you seemingly ignoring what Blade said about the PD) we've discussed the reasons for labeling it as nonsense Ad nauseam

[Bonzo]

About the last PD, I read more different translation, but at last I understood this:

Only Rivalz and Kallen returned at school.
Tha gym was converted in a "rest camp" for the workers.
During the anime Milly spoke about his dad for question of nobilty/business...and now the grandfather, then...how many years exist the Ashford academy?
Ashford is always a only britannia school? then Kallen is japanese but britannia for convenience?
Gino lost his noble title and his relation with Kallen is just "friends and rivals", the mail sent by Gino was a message about "i'm coming" for the reunion with inside his braggart spirit.
Villetta isn't returned to be a teacher and no info about the baby, she's there to spy the school reunion.
No idea when the student reunion happened.
Anya not return to be a student and no words about a "tree"
And a little paradox, no word about Lelouch, just "he", they can't mention his name for a political taboo and this is correct, but with the fireworks start, thanks a phrase said by Rivalz, Kallen and Nunnally will become sad and all the rest of the people understand partially the truth about Lelouch.
Instead they make a tribute about Rolo, but they know now he was just a "ghost-puppet" of the emperor and not a member of the school.

The last suzaku's thought is another paradox, because he know lelouch will never see that fireworks, in every place he can be, for catholic religion he's in the hell/purgatory, for buddish his soul is purified and his memory deleted for to reborn like a new one.
But this is just a theory, because in that anime heaven and hell not exist, just a "planet" with inside all the soul.

[bladeofdarkness]

i dont know
i think that last part about lelouch is when the talk about how he wanted for them to all see the fireworks one last time
suzaku is thinking about how lelouch's promise (fireworks) was another lie in the end
but thats ok because nunnaly kallen and everyone are happy
and this is the world he created

[Bonzo]

Yes, but fireworks start like surprise (during the day, then they couldn't see them, but this is....okay ) nobody know anything and nobody ask about who organized that fireworks show, the first phrase is Rivalz speak about Lelouch promise, then....they made 2+2.
Maybe Villetta and Sayoko were there to spy the students for that motivation, to control their reactions and keep the secret.

[Bonzo]

Now a little update, the complete (without text) first page of Kallen's pain:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...urn25.3.5a.JPG

About Tohdou and Nagisa, they don't trust about UNF decision, then they're the surveillance stuff, just to keep the secret around few people and he's angry with Kallen, Tohdou is one of those people think Kallen is a traitor of japanese honor.
Nagise instead like japanese agreed with tohdou, but like woman she understand very well kallen feelings.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Now a little update, the complete (without text) first page of Kallen's pain:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...urn25.3.5a.JPG

About Tohdou and Nagisa, they don't trust about UNF decision, then they're the surveillance stuff, just to keep the secret around few people and he's angry with Kallen, Tohdou is one of those people think Kallen is a traitor of japanese honor.
Nagise instead like japanese agreed with tohdou, but like woman she understand very well kallen feelings.

That is just sad, considering they actually KNOW that Schneizel used them just as horribly, that he valued them even less than Lelouch, tried to take out Horai island, and that Lelouch went on to save the world without the BK twice in the span of a month, especially if C.C. made a false confession tape to make Lelouch look better.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

That is just sad, considering they actually KNOW that Schneizel used them just as horribly, that he valued them even less than Lelouch, tried to take out Horai island, and that Lelouch went on to save the world without the BK twice in the span of a month, especially if C.C. made a false confession tape to make Lelouch look better.

Hmm, now that you mention it, that is kinda messed up.

Well, good job anyway bonzo. Looks very good art-wise.

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

That is just sad, considering they actually KNOW that Schneizel used them just as horribly, that he valued them even less than Lelouch, tried to take out Horai island, and that Lelouch went on to save the world without the BK twice in the span of a month, especially if C.C. made a false confession tape to make Lelouch look better.

I understand your doubt, but for a "samurai", a traitor is a traitor.
Tohdou is like a living bushido code then he can't forgive Lelouch, C.C confession limited the "disaster", but he will never forget the old scars, like the elimination of japan rebel force caused by lelouch.

Lelouch used and "betrayed" them, Schneizel used and betrayed them...then Tohdou doesn't thrust of nobody and he has reserves about UNF and Kaguya decision, for him, Lelouch can't change.

About Kallen, she declared herself japanese, fought for japan, freedom, etc...and at last, at the end of everything Kallen said "I'll become a britannia citizen for to take care of Lelouch" you can imagine Tohdou doesn't approve it, seems like Kallen taked fool of them, but at the same time he couldn't to contest.

[Betteroffer]

Given that Lelouch planned to die by the hands of a friend he had hurt, wouldn't that at least make Tohdoh respect him enough for planning a sort of honor suicide, even if circumstances prevented Lelouch from actually doing it?

I can understand Tohdoh not fully accepting Lelouch, but he should at the very least recognize that Lelouch saved the JLF from complete annihilation in Narita, saved Tohdoh himself from execution in prison, not once but twice, and saved the entire planet twice as well as ushering in a new age of peace.

The knocks against Lelouch are the killing of Katase and the abandoning of the Black Rebellion, since the SAZ and Geass Directorate massacres have been explained to them.

He doesn't need to like or even trust Lelouch, but Tohdoh seems to have some pretty good reasons to at least grudgingly respect him given what he did to help the BK even after they tried to kill him. Lelouch never held any desire to avenge himself on them. That is him being the bigger man by LEAGUES.

As for Tohdoh regarding Kallen as a traitor...that is just him being a d**k to me. Kallen has:
1. Been abused all her life by her fellow Japanese simply because she happened to take after her father in her ethnic appearance, yet she chose to fight for their betterment even though she could have lived better than most Britannians as a Stadtfeld.
2. Been used by her friends and comrades not once but twice, after they went on such a rage about NOT using people.
3. Lost her mother to suicide where she leaves a note basically saying it's Kallen's fault and that she is ASHAMED of all the risks Kallen has taken.
4. Watched her comrades try to side with the very man who planned to kill them and subjugate them just like Charles, right after Lelouch had finally freed their precious country.
5. Lost her friends Shirley and C.C. to death, and Suzaku to his obsessive hatred of Lelouch and anyone who seems to not share his opinion (he vowed to kill Kallen as well if Lelouch tried something).

This has ultimately left Kallen in a broken mess where she wants to just be useful to the last person on earth who seems to care about her...and Tohdoh thinks she's a traitor to Japan? Aside from Naoto, all the Japanese people she knows are ashamed of her, or have tried to kill her, or vowed to do it. Tohdoh, can question her decision yes, but he has no right to question her, and he should know it, being aware of the above points.

...Can you give Tohdoh cancer? Or maybe make him destroy his own life by obsessively monitoring Lelouch waiting for Lelouch to try something?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

As for Tohdoh regarding Kallen as a traitor...that is just him being a d**k to me. Kallen has:
1. Been abused all her life by her fellow Japanese simply because she happened to take after her father in her ethnic appearance, yet she chose to fight for their betterment even though she could have lived better than most Britannians as a Stadtfeld

where does THIS one come from ?