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View Poll Results: AnoHana - Episode 8 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 86 | 72.27% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 12.61% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 10 | 8.40% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 5 | 4.20% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 0.84% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 0.84% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 0.84% | |
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-06-03, 12:46 | Link #81 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Well, I won't discount your opinion as invalid - you're certainly expressing it well. I just happen to feel differently. I would offer three possible reasons for why Menma hasn't revealed her existence already.
First - maybe she didn't know she could impact reality the way she did (writing in the diary, for example). Menma seemingly doesn't know exactly why she's there or what she is any more than Jintan does. Second - I sincerely doubt Menma could just pick up any notepad and start writing. I think the finding of the diary was key - it was probably the necessary means for her to be able to communicate visually. Third - On some level, both Jintan and Menma have known all along that by revealing her existence, they would take her one step closer to disappearing forever. For the both of them, the notion of having to say goodbye again is probably a difficult one to accept.
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2011-06-03, 12:52 | Link #82 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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I can't say I'm all too convinced with the points you have brought:
1) It is difficult to accept that Menma doesn't realize she isn't affecting reality: she hugged people more than once with expressed reactions from them. She also made "cakes" that could be eaten by Jinta -and- other people. It is just that no matter how I look at it, she could affect everyone without much subtility behind it. I know Menma is carefree, but that point doesn't make any sense considering she herself took actions in previous episodes that require the fact she realize she can affect the physical realm. 2) But why would she be able to make cake/muffin? She can cook, but can't write unless it is her diary...? What about the phone calls...? 3) The problem with this point is that none of them realized that this wish could lead to a farewell. This episode is an evidence itself: when Naruko mentioned that doing this would lead to Menma's disappearance, Jinta only realized at that very instant. I should perhaps watch the previous episodes again, but there were no hints or subtle clues that any of them were worried about "post-wish" situation. I don't exactly expect everything to be explained considering the nature of this series, and it doesn't take away the qualities and praises for this very episode. However, the series as a whole was hiindered by its very premise, which will lead to a difficult conclusion. I will gladly enjoy a well written one, but I only expressed my concern, considering this episode just confirmed there was a crawling issue with Menma's existence.
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2011-06-03, 13:07 | Link #83 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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It's not like Menma is crying over every little thing like a spoiled child and the times she does it's for understandable reasons. She doesn't know why she's here (though she's slowly starting to recollect her memories), she sees people suffer because of her, plus the fact that she can cease to exist at any time must be on her mind. It's funny. I couldn't watch Clannad anymore at some point, because it was so dreadful to watch Nagisa being helpless and useless in general. Thankfully, Menma is trying her best to overcome her fears and make amends. If that will mean she goes to heaven, leaving everyone behind, then so be it. She's starting to grow on me every episode. |
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2011-06-03, 13:12 | Link #84 | |
Senior Member
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I'm going to defend the handling of Menma the Ghost a bit.
For one, she does have the mind of a young, highly emotional, girl. So I can understand it taking her awhile to: a) Realize she needs to put her emotions aside, and prove to everyone not named "Jinta" that she's really there. b) Find a good way of proving just that. In Jinta's case, I think that he himself was not 100% sure she was really there until this episode. I think he may have been afraid that if Menma tried to prove her actual ghostly presence, but was unable to, that this may confirm to him that, well, he's insane. And many people with severe delusions/hallucinations don't want to accept that they're that far gone. Also, Poppo was an easy believer so you didn't need to convince him much it seemed. The rest were skeptical, but very polite about it (except Yukiatsu). So perhaps there was a sense that there wasn't a pressing need to convince people that Menma was really there. Quote:
Anyway, I can just as easily say that your sentiment on Nagisa is a "little overblown". Like Guardian Enzo said, to each his own.
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2011-06-03, 13:23 | Link #85 |
On a mission
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Man. As for the whole Okada vs Maeda thing, I was clearly on the later side til now, but the gap has closed by quite a bit. As I've said before, I've never been too impressed with Mari Okada's work, though I should get around to Wandering Son. The main problem is that out of the biggest works I knew (True Tears, Toradora!, and lets throw in Haka Saku Iroha because that one actually kept me watching) is that Ano Hana has more likable characters than those 3 combined. Ano Hana is the first work I've seen of her that has worked for me completely. Characters with conflicts, characters that are interesting, and characters that interact with each other. And finally, characters that I could empathize with (aka I don't want to slap them all)
It's almost like she has written like she has never written before for Ano Hana. Or arguably anyone else has written before as if she were possessed by the Gods of writing themselves. I'd say she's in fierce contention with Uborochi for MVP of the year. This episode wasted no scenes-- an example of perfect pacing. I haven't seen that since Aoi Bungaku. Although it had been implied a lot before, it's not until now that it's outright said that they are all unable to get over their guilt. Menma's mom is still hit over this and stuck. Is there anyone that can move on? The confession scene with Naruko and Jintan was nice (but what's with the shots of her ass?); it's just that now's not the right time. Unfortunate, really. Meanwhile Yukkiatsu's attempts at logic have finally collapsed and he can't put up with Jintan's shit. Well, who could? So what can save them? Even if they could move on, they'll probably break apart as every time they look at each other they get reminded... A miracle. Brilliant Ending-- 10/10
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2011-06-03, 13:46 | Link #86 |
Me at work
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Oh wow,that was my favorite episode since episode 1.
I didn't have a problem with Menma not showing herself because until now people were going along with what Jintan was doing even if they didn't all believe him,if they had never turned against Jintan I wouldn't have minded if she never showed herself,but with what was happening this week I really wanted her to make a move and she did! But the scene that really got me was Hanaru's confession,Hakura Tomatsu went all out on that one,outdid her performance in cross game episode 50 and that's saying something. Of course I've always liked Okada but I sill remain more of an Adachi fanboy,reading some of his short stories right now and I get blown away at nearly everyone of them. And lastly,watching this episode in the middle of marathoning the original "cutey honey" series made for quite a mood whiplash.
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2011-06-03, 13:46 | Link #87 | |||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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b) is rather difficult to consider it as valid if you ask me: Menma was interacting physically with everything around her range, and it wasn't really that difficult for her to try things (cakes, and so forth). She wasn't shown having an epiphany or anything and yet, she naturally used the phone in this episode. The question is: why not sooner? If physical contact was really a issue, how about asking Jinta playing the "psychic"? It doesn't take a workload of brainpower to ask one of the SPB members to pick a sheet, write anything they want and make Jinta "guess" what they wrote, from 10 meters afar. Quote:
In fact, Jinta was incredibly passive for anything non Menma related which makes me sympathetic towards Naruko, considering how incompetent he is with his flesh friends. As much as Jinta probably had his lion share of issues, it is... well, difficult to understand why it took so many times for him to stand his grounds. In fact, his character and logic were crumbling for weird reason: he is the character who knows Menma the best and he is still actually witnessing what she is wishing, with not so subtle hints and "fun". Which leaves to the biggest interrogation: Why not doing anything, especially after Yukiatsu's incident? Both characters are the very basis of the SPB group, yet they were doing the least of the group, until now. I daresay that Tsuroko was infinitely more useful regarding Naruko and Yukiatsu. And that is something that doesn't bode too well when we have the previous leader trying to fulfill the wish of someone else, and that very person fooling around, for the lack of better words. Quote:
Even though things were crumbling, the obvious goal would be "everyone being friends again like before", yet neither Jinta or Menma were trying to spell out the issue in order to make everyone moving on. You may say that it wasn't Jinta's goal to begin with, but since it is part of Menma wish, it has to be done. Meanwhile, Menma was portrayed as a very dedicated girls towards her friend, but for some reason, she just doesn't try to do anything about their problems and go happy go lucky until the boat is crashing into a very obvious iceberg, several times. Well, I guess I'm being a bit nitpicky here, but that's all I wanted to bring out: I can't help but call that a plot hole, and the story itself doesn't really explain that, unless you want to ignore a huge chunk of characterization.
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2011-06-03, 14:05 | Link #88 | |
Lurker
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Plus, the dynamic of the story would have changed considerably if he did went out of his way to explain the phenomenon. There wouldn't be much room for the inner minds and struggles of each character and would have instead revolved around the Menma of now. There would have been more room for drama, but I'm not sure that'd have been the best route. I much prefer they focus on developing the characters to set up the drama for the last three episodes like they did now, than have drama every single episode. |
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2011-06-03, 14:12 | Link #89 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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I think you're disregarding a couple of very important points of characterization that have been well established, Klashikari. First of all, simply because someone doesn't act on a suspicion or knowledge doesn't mean they aren't subconsciously aware of it. I think as regards Menma's wish fulfillment meaning her final departure, I personally believe both Jintan and Menma were aware of it - it was influencing Jintan's behavior especially - but more on a subconscious level.
Which leads into the second point, avoidance. Avoidance is a major component of the disorder pretty much everyone in the series is dealing with. Jintan practices it expertly, for what is being a hikikomori if not avoidance perfected to an art? His father practices it too, by allowing his son to be a dysfunctional member of society in the name of kindness. Anaru has carried a torch for Jintan since she was a child and never told him. Yukiatsu and Tsuruko have danced around their mutual feelings since they were Busters. And Poppo chose to deal with Menma's death and the breakdown of his social circle by leaving Japan altogether (or at the very least, dropping out of sight and creating an elaborate fantasy) and then returning to play forts in his childhood hideout. Given all that, is it so hard to believe that Jintan and Menma would prefer to let the fantasy that they could be together play out by not confronting the reasons behind in - even if they both knew, intellectually, that it didn't make sense and couldn't last? Not to me.
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2011-06-03, 14:34 | Link #90 |
Home of Silent Prayer
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Like many others have said, this episode is indeed superb. I don't say that episode 2-7 are bad, but by the ending I finally get the feeling I first got when I first watched the ending of episode 1, and it's the moment I've been waiting for from this series. From the heavy moments like MenMom's breakdown, Anaru's anguished declaration of love, and the fight in the SPB, to the subtler moments like Jintan's talk with his Dad and Menma's little brother about the topic of family.
So, Menma finally try to show herself to the others, and like many I too thought this seems a bit late. I can buy the reasoning of Menma - the way I see her, she only wishes (not THE wish) for her group of friends to get back together again and doesn't mind just being a follower with just Jintan seeing her. In addition to that, she's afraid that if she shows herself and her wish is being granted, she'll disappear and abandon her friends again. It is only now when she saw the group is about to break apart due to her that she decided to show herself. So, perhaps it's a bit late from Menma's end, but it's even more baffling from Jintan's side. Until the very end, it's Menma who shows herself and he wasn't even considering to prove Menma's existence to prove himself right. I could buy at first that he thinks she's just a hallucination and afraid that people will think he's crazy, but unlike Menma he's the one who saw first hand that by the others unable to see Menma it brings more problem than if they can see her. I suppose it's not impossible that he has his own reasons, but I really hope that it will get addressed now that Menma has shown itself and other people asking why didn't Jintan do this from long ago. Because if not, or if all Jintan can say is that he never thought about it, it will really hurt my enjoyment, to be honest.
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2011-06-03, 14:52 | Link #91 | ||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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The issue with the whole group is obvious ever since many episodes: Menma's death is a major trauma for everyone, and Jinta is remotely aware of that. Ever since Yukiatsu dropped his bombshell, Jinta should realize that what are the implications with the advent. Therefore, he has to prove it in order to solidify the bonds between all the members, and also justify his actions. That's the natural course of action: would you follow someone "just because" or get explained that there is a major reason for bringing out some dead friend stuff all of a sudden? Jinta's issue was pointed out by Naruko in this episode: that he is burdening himself way too much. However, it is an oxymoron, when the wish itself involve the "full group". Even though nothing can be the same as before, he perfectly knows that Menma wants to have the SPB as a single group back. Yet he is stubbornly shutting himself in his shell, which goes against Menma's very wish: not only it turns Jinta into misery she doesn't want, but also drift every SPB apart further and further. Quote:
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At this point, allowing such execution because of a flawed premise isn't exactly the best writing you can have. That's why I separated the plot and the execution. And for good writing, I believe good execution -and- good plot has to be present. Having only 1 of the two is certainly not for the best. Quote:
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Isn't that a contradiction? You state that he isn't so keen to prove Menma existence since it would be a step closer for her "disappearance", yet he is "actively" doing that alone. Assuming he is truly not willing to let Menma disappearing subconsciously, he would hinder himself even more on a personal level "subconsciously" as well, which isn't the case. To the contrary, Jinta is pushing his own limits. If Jinta is truely trying not to make Menma disappearing, he would actually remain as a mop and just play with Menma without giving much thought. Quote:
You have a dichotomic syndrome here that doesn't make much sense regarding his actions. Just as Saturn Beaver summarized, if that point isn't addressed, it is just a glaring issue regarding his intent all along.
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2011-06-03, 15:02 | Link #92 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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@Klashikari
I think you're being too hard on Memma and Jintan regarding how soon they decided to try to tell everyone about her. For one thing, the series began pretty much almost after Memma first appeared, and at this point of the show only like 3-4 weeks AT MOST have taken place. Do you really except such lucidity in the character's minds? Jintan wants to ignore Memma's existence half the time. Memma herself is obviously confused about why she's there, and what she should do. It was only after Memma saw how pained her friends were over these last few weeks that she perhaps decided to take matters into her own hands. I mean how many episodes do you think it should've been for Memma to make such a decision and for what reasons would she go about doing it? How many days in the anime's time? I personally appreciated that the anime didn't wait till the very end to address this and are addressing it 3 episodes before the last one.
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2011-06-03, 15:12 | Link #94 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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This is also the reason why I didn't say they should have done it right from the get go (even though that solution was within their reach the very instant it started).
However, I'm still quite disturbed by the lack of actions or at least thought given to the situation after Yukiatsu's breakdown (yes I do mention it a lot, but surely, this was the first major crisis that could ring a huge alarm for everyone regarding Menma's impact (and thus mention of her name) to the whole group). The sole mention of Menma drove Yukiatsu to some scary extreme, especially for teenagers who would think of this incident even more gross than what adults could say about that. And this is even more blatant when Yukiatsu was overly persistent with Jinta regarding that matter even before this episode. That alone was obvious that bringing out Menma all the time would piss him off big time, unless he is certain she is there. Everything was centred over Menma, and how characters were obviously still mourning her death, to different levels. That's why the lack of concern regarding "trying to prove her existence" ticks me in the wrong way, especially when you have touchy people such like Yukiatsu and Tsuroko. I don't expect any rational explanation for this part anyway (be it a writer oversight, or truly something that couldn't be elaborated by the characters), it is just something worth mentioning imho.
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2011-06-03, 15:33 | Link #96 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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It seems this boils down to what you see as acceptable character flaws, much like the debates around Madoka.
Personally, I see 6 characters who are emotionally distraught and are not very open with their emotions to everyone. I see Jintan who has a chronic avoidance issue when it comes to anything. I see Memma emotionally confused about what her point in existing is. She proclaims she has a wish she doesn't even know what it is. Jintan to give a little peace to his mind works towards fulfilling her wish. In Jintan's mind he isn't even sure what Memma is and certainly has been avoiding asking her any questions about that. Again, he chronically avoids this issue. The other characters think he's crazy, but again he avoids the issue of proving them wrong. So apparently only Memma can get them out of this rut. Could she see things were wrong with everyone? Sure. But the whole series seems to be structured so far as building up just how badly Memma's death has plagued our cast and how Memma comes to terms with what she thinks she should do. It seems episode 8 was the culmination of that (First time Jintan's broken down in front of her). Again, it was merely the span of a few weeks that they've been in this situation. You seem to think the tipping point for decisive action should've been Yukiatsu's break down, but considering that Jitnan is our central character and he's the only one who talks to Memma, I consider his breakdown in episode 8 to be the much more logical tipping point.
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Last edited by Reckoner; 2011-06-03 at 21:39. |
2011-06-03, 15:40 | Link #97 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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The plot isn't black and white. There is no right or wrong on what the characters ultimately decide. That's what makes the story so interesting and captivating. Whether the decisions make sense or not isn't really relevant. The characters are largely driven by emotions. Tsuruko is the only one who seems cold and analytical, which hopefully next week will expand upon her side of the story. |
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2011-06-03, 17:51 | Link #100 |
Guess what time it is?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Age: 38
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We have just lost cabin pressure.
Was I the only one terrified when Menma showed up at the end that it was going to be her brother all dressed up? I wonder what Jinta said to him... thankfully it wasn't something ridiculous like that. The confession was absolutely brutal. Anjou is tragically damaged by her guilt, and she's far from the only one. She deserves a happy end, bad. The preview teases some Tsuruko development. I've been calling for it for 3 eps now, so don't make me look foolish again! My poor Anaru though.. As long as Menma is hanging around Jinta, she doesn't stand... *sunglasses* ... a ghost of a chance. |
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