Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I still say the note was damaged by Ooishi.

Why didn't you continue that discussion in the spoiler thread and instead restarted it here, especially since you didn't address the last set of objections to your theory?

Spoiler for season 1:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Reason: Upon comparing the note, he worked out most of what happened (specifically that K1 was delusional), and that Ooishi was partially responsible for the deaths. Therefore, he destroyed any evidence of a connection between himself and K1.

-- He removed the mention of the dam construction manager because they had been friends.

So? He had nothing at all to do with his death and that murder was common knowledge. Takano on the other hand had the Yamainu apply pressure to bury all the Watanagashi murder cases since she was involved in them. It would have been inconvenient for the police to reopen them. Oishi had nothing to lose by this and the Yamainu did.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

-- He removed the mention of Tomitake's murder because that it was not public knowledge that Tomitake was even dead.

Keiichi was crazy but he did actually stumble upon the truth regarding Tomitake's death and the "syringe" would have indicated that he was hallucinating, which might point towards the Hinamizawa Syndrome. Both of these would have been potentially damaging to the Yamainu. They thus had a good reason to remove them.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

He left the rest behind because it would (falsely) support his Sonozaki theories.

The Yamainu were not involved. They had no reason to search the room (remember, they had no interest in K1 after almost running him down or meeting him in the woods), and they left in the part about men with a van.

They're the ones that took him back to his house, so they certainly didn't ignore him after meeting him in the woods. They simply let him there until they could bring Irie over.

The statement about the van wasn't really damaging to them. Oishi ran the license plate number of one of the vans in Tatarigoroshi-hen and nothing suspicious turned up. The police ignored it despite the fact that it was the last thing he did before disappearing, so obviously there was nothing that could endanger them. And a description of a white van is even vaguer than a license plate number. The police could have just assumed that a group of goons riding a van were part of the Yakuza.

And when would Oishi get a chance to damage the note? He wasn't the one who discovered it; that was the forensics team. If the people who found it had seen it was whole and after Oishi took it it turned up later missing half of what was on it, that would have been a lot worse of Oishi, since he'd certainly get arrested for tampering with the evidence. Besides it would have already been read by them, so damaging it would have been pointless.

The Yamainu on the other hand had plenty of time. They arrived there just before Keichii ran off. The police would have first visited the phone booth and only later go to Keichii's house. In that time they could have easily searched the room and found the note and syringe without leaving any evidence considering that this is part of the job as they're a counterintelligence unit.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Why didn't you continue that discussion in the spoiler thread and instead restarted it here, especially since you didn't address the last set of objections to your theory?

What are you taking as your source? I take the original SN as canon, using SF's translation.

Spoiler for season 1:

Ooishi's crime was that had been talking with the delusional K1, and had fueled said delusions. I claim he was attempting to conceal any evidence that would show a connection between himself and K1. Anything that could start an line of inquiry that ultimately shows a link between K1 and Ooishi, or that (to a lesser extent) shows K1 was delusional, is damaging to Ooishi.

Anything that could start a line of thought that would lead to the Irie Clinic, or (to a lesser extent) leads to viewing it as connected to anything else is damaging to the Yamainu. Anything that leads the police to treat this as an isolated / random act of violence is beneficial to the Yamainu. Getting caught at the crime scene would have been extremely damaging; leaving evidence that there had been a search would be damaging.

Originally Posted by Eryops

So? He had nothing at all to do with his death and that murder was common knowledge. Takano on the other hand had the Yamainu apply pressure to bury all the Watanagashi murder cases since she was involved in them. It would have been inconvenient for the police to reopen them. Oishi had nothing to lose by this and the Yamainu did.

The police had found nothing four years ago when the trail was still warm. And they're going to find anything now, on a cold trail with no new evidence?

Originally Posted by Eryops

Keiichi was crazy but he did actually stumble upon the truth regarding Tomitake's death and the "syringe" would have indicated that he was hallucinating, which might point towards the Hinamizawa Syndrome. Both of these would have been potentially damaging to the Yamainu. They thus had a good reason to remove them.

Leaving them there would have discredited the whole note as the ravings of a lunatic. Since when have police gone from the conclusion of "killer was insane" to "a communicable disease caused it" to "the local clinic is studying and covering up said disease" instead of "isolated case of insanity"?

Originally Posted by Eryops

They're the ones that took him back to his house, so they certainly didn't ignore him after meeting him in the woods. They simply let him there until they could bring Irie over.

They didn't take him back to the house. Rena found him there and helped him walk back. Even if they had, it would still support the "thought him harmless" theory. If they'd thought him dangerous, they'd have just shot him right then and thrown his body in the swamp.

Originally Posted by Eryops

The statement about the van wasn't really damaging to them. Oishi ran the license plate number of one of the vans in Tatarigoroshi-hen and nothing suspicious turned up. The police ignored it despite the fact that it was the last thing he did before disappearing, so obviously there was nothing that could endanger them. And a description of a white van is even vaguer than a license plate number. The police could have just assumed that a group of goons riding a van were part of the Yakuza.

I agree it's not that damaging, but it is the most damaging thing in the letter. For example, a policeman notices the van pulling into the clinic and notices that the Irie Clinic is well funded for a small town, and starts checking into its funding.

Originally Posted by Eryops

And when would Oishi get a chance to damage the note? He wasn't the one who discovered it; that was the forensics team. If the people who found it had seen it was whole and after Oishi took it it turned up later missing half of what was on it, that would have been a lot worse of Oishi, since he'd certainly get arrested for tampering with the evidence. Besides it would have already been read by them, so damaging it would have been pointless.

Where are you getting this? The SN specifically says that he was first on the scene of the crime and that he was questioned about (and denied) damaging the note.

Originally Posted by Eryops

The Yamainu on the other hand had plenty of time. They arrived there just before Keichii ran off. The police would have first visited the phone booth and only later go to Keichii's house. In that time they could have easily searched the room and found the note and syringe without leaving any evidence considering that this is part of the job as they're a counterintelligence unit.

So, you don't think the police would place high priority on telling his parents that their son had attempted suicide, had been hospitalized, and that they should probably go see him right away?

The Yamainu arrived at K1's house because Irie asked them for help moving a possibly resistive K1. At the time they arrived, they had no knowledge that Rena and Mion were dead. Are you claiming that when they saw him run away, they decided to search the house instead of chasing him, even though a live K1 would potentially be more informative to the police? (If his account of what's behind the clock disagrees with what they find, that's likely to lead to an expanded investigation.) Even though he may well have been carrying any evidence anyway? And that Irie thought nothing unusual about that?


The intact note with marker was (wrt. evidence in the Oyashiro crimes) likely to be ignored as the ravings of a delusional K1. As evidence of Ooishi setting off K1's paranoia, it is strong.

Removing just the part about the van would have removed the direct connection to the clinic while still keeping the message non-credible as a source.

Removing the mention of the foreman and Tomitake would increase the message's credibility, support Ooishi's "Sonozaki involvement theory" and remove all ties to Ooishi, while still having a direct tie to the Irie Clinc.

Removing the message entirely would remove all ties to the Irie Clinic, and would support a random act of violence.

From the Yamainu's POV, situation three is the worst. From Ooishi's POV, situation three is the best.

By the way, in your hypothesis, why did Ooishi deny knowing the meaning of "Was there a needle?"?

(Also, the whole point of Atonement and Rule Y is "There was no conspiracy against K1." If the Yamainu had damaged the note, that would have to be amended to "Well, there was a bit of a conspiracy."

[Ithekro]

Still going around and around on the torn note I see.

[SealedTime]

Aye, two different theories here.

[rogerpepitone]

One of those theories has:
- evidence that the suspect had reason to search the house
- evidence that the suspect benefited from removing those parts of the note
- evidence that the suspect had opportunity to damage the note

One of those theories has:
- no evidence that the suspects had reason to search the house, and evidence that the suspect had reason not to
- no evidence that the suspects would benefit from removing those parts of the note, and evidence that the suspects would be harmed by removing those parts
- no evidence that the suspects so much as entered the Maebara house, and evidence that they had reason not to

[destinyorfate333]

at the final part where they finally break through fate, i was a bit concerned about tomitake where he was on the phone with some guy we never knew or maybe it was pointless anyway. But when tomitake request emergency investigation of the irie insitute while putting banken on standby, what exactly did that "emergency investigation" do?

From what i've seen nothing really happened at the irie institute until the banken arrived.

[maximilianjenus]

They did not physically investigated it, they must have investigated it's founding and other kind of things about it.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by destinyorfate333

at the final part where they finally break through fate, i was a bit concerned about tomitake where he was on the phone with some guy we never knew or maybe it was pointless anyway. But when tomitake request emergency investigation of the irie insitute while putting banken on standby, what exactly did that "emergency investigation" do?

From what i've seen nothing really happened at the irie institute until the banken arrived.

Nothing immediate. The investigation presumably occurred after they suspended the authority of the institution and moved in the Banken to apprehend all its members.

[Eryops]

Inspired by Umineko, I've developed an anti-fantasy interpretation of Higurashi:

The real world of Higurashi is Saikoroshi-hen; all the other worlds are imaginary. Rika becomes so lonely after losing her friends due to Hinamizawa being about to sink underwater that she imagines a series of worlds where the dam was never built and all her friends stayed with her in Hinamizawa. She starts deluding herself into thinking that she can return to that world by killing someone and ends up murdering her mother and then killing herself in a misguided attempt to reach that ideal world of hers. After all, it's not as if a god that looks like a little girl, a mysterious lethal disease that's only found in a single village and a secret government conspiracy with unlimited resources out to turn that disease into a biological weapon could ever be real.

Higurashi is actually the tragic story of a little girl who retreated into a fantasy world after all her friends moved away and then murdered both her mother and herself trying to reach it.

[Ca12nag3]

What your saying would match the Rei story line exept for 1 key thing. Rika's mom said shes the incarnation and that Rika would be the next one after she passes away. So if the desease/curse is real is unknown but the reincarnation is true.

You know if Rika wouldnt kill her mom its game over from the entire go back in time point of view cause Hanyuu cant reach Rika to do so. And if the desease is real then when people leave they get ill. Tho nobody that did leave is said to have developed the desease.
(tho the desease isnt a rule i think cause in every arc were there is a survivor it dont seem that survivor fell ill). Rena even went back some day where shes the survivor and she seems to be ok, from medical point of view.

Also why is Hanyuu continuesly apologizing when things go bad?

Perhaps i raise more questions then having answers :P

[rogerpepitone]

The trigger for the disease isn't leaving Hinamizawa, it's stress.

[BetoJR]

Isn't it both?

[Ca12nag3]

Stress + not being in the company of the reincarnation of Oyashiro, as said when the reincarnation dies the entire village will develope the desease to stage 5 and kill eachother/themselves.

Yet neither Keiichi, Rena or Satoko did so when they were the only survivors. Any way you put it this is an unexplained factor in the entire story.

I understand if people want to toss this aside but still many times its explained that yes the Stress is the trigger when it comes to satoshi or the deranging Keiichi killing friends/family. But its also said that without the reincarnation of Oyashiro the entire vilage would go lvl 5 and die cause of the lack of the feramones that supress this. So why do these survivors not develope the desease?

[Klashikari]

No, the whole thing related to the Queen's Carrier / Oyashiro's reincarnation is just a myth.
However, people are way too influenced by their faith, so they are easier to get stressed if they go in a paranoid fear regarding their wrathful god. Incidentally, they are also easy soothed by Rika's presence, due to the "status" of reincarnation.

It was NEVER said it was the case, not even close.

[Ca12nag3]

The raport produced made clear that without the feramones of the Queen carrier the villagers would derrange and go insane without 48 hours. dr. Irie said so himself. Even tho Stress is the main cause of the development to lvl 5. Also the shots developed by the doctor supress the disease as with Satoko but Satoshi already went beyond lvl 5 so hes totaly deranged and its unsure if he'd ever recover.

So if its a myth then how did the supressive reagent get developed by Irie? The only thing that might be Myth etc is Hanyuu/the spirituality but the disease is real.

[Klashikari]

How could they know about it? Think about it: that situation never came to light. They only followed Hifumi's thesis.
And besides, how can you explain that there are so many survivors anyway?
This isn't a report, but a plain result of their research they are pretty far to resolve entirely.

Plus, the VN confirm that, aside of few characters, MOST are alive and well in Watanagashi and Meakashi.

The whole theory regarding the "queen carrier" IS a farce but Takano forced everything to make sure things would go on her terms, that's all.
That is the very reason why there wasn't any disaster plan during these chapters: people realized that even when Rika died, the village didn't turn into a psychosis catastrophe. Therefore, the whole queen theory was smashed to pieces.

[BetoJR]

I don't remember it being explained in the anime that the Carrier Queen bit was only a myth. Is this a game-only thing?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I don't remember it being explained in the anime that the Carrier Queen bit was only a myth. Is this a game-only thing?

It was much more clear in the game, true enough. However, none of the main characters knew about the truth anyway.

It is something you can conclude if you take in account few elements, especially the complete lack of disaster during Watanagashi and Meakashi (it took at least more than 3-4 days for the police to find "Mion" and Rika's corpse).
The anime was "subtle" and has shown the village "well" despite more than 48 hours have passed (I did some calculations 3 years ago, in the same thread).

[BetoJR]

Well, that's... interesting. I admit I hadn't really paid attention to the dates, like you exposed in that post of yours.
So, I guess you're correct: We still do not know what really triggers the disease, do we?

[Klashikari]

The only "official" element we know so far is that the hinamizawa syndrome is a potent pathogen that has an effect on one's neuronal system, increasing the effect of stress (and probably various things around it, like adrenaline).

The paranoia escalate into a circle of more stress, paranoia until you reach hallucinations and murderous intent.
Unless the subject is affected by the H170 serum.