2007-05-14, 20:43 | Link #1 |
lolwut
Fansubber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Aspects of Translation
I think it's abou time that we begin to expect our viewers to know the -tachi suffix. It's getting annoying to translate it as X and the others. Do you think this is too much to ask for our leechers to understand?
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2007-05-14, 20:57 | Link #2 |
Dansa med oss
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 36
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Why not just romanize the Japanese and stick that into the subtitles?
English makes liberal (and sometimes questionably necessary) use of pluralization, so I see no reason to leave something in Japanese when it naturally exists in or is very easily translatable into English. Things like Nee-chan I can abide, as using 'older sister-chan' is just dumb, but if it's easy to translate, why not just translate it? Disclaimer: Not a lazy leecher, but a translator (term used loosely ) as well. |
2007-05-14, 21:07 | Link #3 | |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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BUT... I think the issues with -tachi can be overcome through clever wording and editing, with very little to no loss in meaning. Suffixes like -san and -chan are impossible to fully translate because no true english equivalent exists. On the other hand, -tachi is not a cultural or social thing, it's simply a slightly different form of pluralizer, and though it sometimes makes literal translations awkward, leaving it untranslated is more laziness on the part of the translator than staying "true to the japanese", IMO.
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2007-05-14, 21:19 | Link #4 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Its the literal equivalent of saying "X and the others" ... its not an honorific (indicator of status). I'm on Quarkboy's and FPB's page on this one
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2007-05-14, 22:18 | Link #5 |
Gregory House
IT Support
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As users browsing the Lucky Star thread must know already, I'm in for "full localization" whenever possible, as a translation student myself. While I haven't got a position taken about honorifics, -tachi isn't a honorific at all, and it's easily replaceable in (I guess) any language. So why the hell do you want to do it?
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2007-05-15, 04:51 | Link #7 |
Aegisub dev
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Age: 39
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And if anyone used -tachi in subs, what about cases such as anta-tachi? "You-tachi"? Nah... using -tachi in subs is a really bad idea. (See above posts.)
In fact I would also like to generally see "less weeaboo". The wapanese-isation of subs is sometimes going too far. I can't bother to dig up any examples now, but being lazy and put the romanisation of some semi-obscure word you can't expect your viewers to remember, and then a note about its meaning, that's just plain bad practice. It only makes your sub harder to understand. Less weeaboo, please. Translate what translated can be. And make notes when there are homonym-dependent jokes. In fact, in the case of honorifics, I believe it wouldn't be very wrong to entirely drop -san, -neesan, -niisan etc., put something appropriate for -sama but keep endearings such as -chan, -cchi, -rin etc. I think that would generally make subs easier to follow. (And please, please, if you are going to put wapanese in your subs make sure you do it right. I remember some Da Capo subs where, when they said neesan they put oneesan in the subs, or something to that effect. Wtf?)
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2007-05-15, 05:28 | Link #8 |
Certified Organic
Join Date: Dec 2005
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either way is fine.
anime fans are expected to know basic japanese word terms like hello, good, yes, and -tachi. but if you want to translate to localize its fine too. it all comes down to what you think is cuter. I like to add in the cuter ending tags and monikers. if you want to try and add an english accent to characters, go for it (just dont use a southern or ghetto accent) the only real reason to make it necessary to add these in, though, is for the hearing impaired. just beacuse you don't speak japanese doesn't mean your deaf. |
2007-05-15, 12:17 | Link #11 |
Retired
Fansubber
Join Date: Aug 2004
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-tachi => et al., anyone?
I find anime to be a very entertaining media, but I like to think I can learn something worthwhile, like some Japanese, while I watch it (yes, a sad way of learning things, but I take what I can). I've watched enough anime to know what -tachi means, but I'm sure there are plenty of anime watchers out there that don't, and I've noticed recently that there are times when the plural reference isn't kept in the translation/editing which could prevent the learning what -tachi means. It generally isn't a huge problem in terms of an overall picture and most watchers couldn't care less, but it is inaccurate referencing and translating. I'm all for educating the masses, though. Whether they like it or not. |
2007-05-15, 12:26 | Link #12 |
A2000A
Fansubber
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First of all, there are the arguments set forth by those before me pointing out how different the case of honorifics and of -tachi is. A lot of honorifics are near impossible to properly and consistently translate. And since honorifics are pretty simple, have no direct semantic/syntactic implications on the sentence itself, I feel that it using these does not harm the understandability of the subs much while they do add more in authenticity and mood-setting. Besides, like it or not, they are already ubiquitous anyway. All of these things do not hold for -tachi. Tachi *is* important to the literal meaning of the sentence and *is* quite translatable, it's the job of editors to make it work as well as possible.
Secondly, if we start adding to the prerequisite 'vocabulary' of fansub watcher like that, we are well on the way towards making them a lot less accessible. That's the best way of making the community die out: raising the threshold for newcomers. If -tachi should be left untranslated, by induction, we should be leaving half of the conversation untranslated. Stuff like "sou desu", "ne", "sugoi", "kawaii", "echhi". It'd be a sub for Japanese learners rather than for people who have no working knowledge of the language. If you want to be that otaku-oriented be my guest, personally I'd like subs to be for everyone. The more, the merrier. P.S. By all means, we're already pushing it with the transcription rather than translation of some words. |
2007-05-15, 12:43 | Link #14 |
Retired
Fansubber
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I disagree with this sentiment on the angle that fansubbing is a very decentralized process and there are really no set standards on fansubs as a whole. Most of the smaller startup/speedsub groups will most likely not pick up the more complicated standards at the sacrifice of ease/speed of the sub for accuracy. There will also be larger groups that will not adopt anime "jargon," so it's a safe bet that there will be a version of a given series that will be accessible and available to the uninitiated anime watcher.
Last edited by chaos4ever; 2007-05-15 at 13:17. |
2007-05-15, 12:53 | Link #15 |
Certified Organic
Join Date: Dec 2005
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i disagree with your view that making people learn japanese will turn off casual watchers.
point number 1. casual watchers who dont like to listen to japanese will not watch fansubs in the first place. these are the people who watch the english dub versions. if they don't like hearing about japanese do you think they would be into the latest anime trends in japan? no they would not, and most likely they would not be watching any anime other than the real popular titles like bleach and one piece. point number 2. if reading a one line word in romanji turns you off, then I wonder how did you sit through the other 400 lines in english without going crazy. must've had a 4 for 1 sale of ridlin down at the walgreens. let me offend your attention span a little more by throwing in a second romanji line in there. on the other side though, I believe an english equivelent, or at least a western language equivelent (EU) can be found for all japanese honorifics. what i dont think can be properly translated are ending dialects. there are no literal words for ending sentences in ~desu, or ~su, or ~be or nyoro~n. sure you can try to use a few slurs here and there, but japan seems to have the patent on making words end in cuteness. |
2007-05-15, 12:57 | Link #16 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Here's a case example; say in Japanese an anime refers to "Tachibana's group", would we say "Tachibana-tachi"? Just how much more moonspeak do we really want to throw in there? Quote:
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2007-05-15, 13:17 | Link #17 | ||
A2000A
Fansubber
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In short, fansubbing is certainly decentralized as you point out, however that doesn't change the relevance of the concern I voice, since the indirect topic at hand deals with 'pushing' for a general change (presumably through 'opinion-making' threads like these) in the opinions and practices of a great many fansubbers. (Believing us to have such power would, I might add, be a bit arrogant. But that does not make the question less valid.) Quote:
- "Some version of a given series"? Firstly, there are some series which do not enjoy having half a dozen fansub groups subbing it start to end. </understatement> Secondly, how exactly do you expect the so-called 'uninitiated anime watcher' to discern which version would be best for them? Even experienced people can't tell at a glance without being led by preconception. P.S. To potato: One line of romaji obviously doesn't mean the end of the world. That is why I spoke of trends. ("well on the way towards", "by induction" etc.) Not subbing -tachi is fundamentally different from not subbing honorifics, as pointed out by many before me. P.P.S. I would like to add that I am not particularly against leaving character-specific speech mannerisms untranslated. By all means let Misuzu say "Gao" in the subs. ;-) And leaving certain show-specific phrases/terms untranslated can add some extra coolness. ("Kage Bunshin no Jutsu!") But again, -tachi does none of these things. Last edited by Crovax; 2007-05-15 at 13:29. |
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2007-05-15, 15:40 | Link #18 | |||
Retired
Fansubber
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Another point is that honorifics, -tachi, and many anime/series jargon (like "Shinigami" instead of "Death God" in Bleach) can be understood or taken in stride by context when used sporadically, even if there is nothing there to explain it outright. But yeah, if you get a line that says "Inoue-tachi thinks Shinigami are kawaii," then, yeah, draw that line. Quote:
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But in addition, the trend of the fansub scene has been continued growth with more fansub groups coming up as more and more people get into it (remember one, two, three years ago when there were so many fewer groups that worked on a series consistently?). I think it's pretty safe to say that more fansub groups will continue to come up and sub different series on a consistent pace in the future, which will give plenty of fansub versions from which people can choose. If the point is to make anime accessible to anime initiates, the best way is by suggesting groups with the subs that make the most "sense" to the context of the anime, which is similar to many of the US anime releases. To vastly oversimplify things, only the long-time watchers who have sold their soul to anime are really obsessed with quality and accuracy. Last edited by chaos4ever; 2007-05-15 at 16:13. |
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2007-05-15, 16:34 | Link #20 | |
Member
Fansubber
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Just a question or two, and a thought. Isn't it preferred to leave nothing untranslated except nouns/names and honorifics? What would you do if something like "... Nee-sama-tachi" came by? Would the TL be "... Elder Sisters and the others"? Or would it be translated as "... the rest of Nee-sama".
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