P.A. Works: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's not a value judgment for me, as I don't consider melodrama a four-letter word, which seems to be the current mindset among anime fandom. Saying HanaIro is melodramatic isn't automatically a criticism - I just strongly disagree that it isn't melodramatic.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing either; some of my favorite works are melodramatic (lolkey) But my point was that HSI isn't as melodramatic as the two other examples which happen to be better shows.

You could explain why though. xD

[Pocari_Sweat]

You know, half the time I think the Mari Okada thread and this one should merge because it's difficult to talk about PA Works without involving her. Guess it's PA Work's version of Akuyuiki Shinbo and Shaft .

I don't consider HSI a melodrama though it does dwell on melancholic themes, something that pretty much every PA Works series does actually. It's actually why I love the studio as their series, particularly their anime originals have more "oomph" and "substance" to them than a typical series of the same field or genre that mostly rely upon gimmicks, laughs or cuteness. HSI does have moments of theatrical drama, but for the most part it was done very well as were the melancholic moments. The problem though wasn't that but the sheer stupidity of some of the episodes, which ultimately led it to being a disappointment, even though it was very good by the end.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

If she's able to write dialogue and stuff like this, True Tears and whatever amount she was involved with doing the series composition for Wandering Son, where it is subdued, restrained and not reeking in forced melodrama or wangst, why does she keep writing these over the top middle school/high school romance melodramas.

You said in the Okada thread you weren't sure if you should take this answer from Okada seriously but I'll post it again anyway

Q:What is the hardest part about writing for anime?

A:Being asked to include even more sappy romance than I had planned.

While I'm sure she musn't have said it like a complaint to me it shows she already knows what she's doing and it seems producers can't get enough and keep asking for more.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Because Ando da gawd put her in her place and made her work normalish for True Tears

Ando didn't direct True Tears (did storyboard a few eps if I remember right) , Junji Nishimura did, why the hell is he off directing stuff like dog days S2 instead of more shows at PA works I don't know.
He was back for the True Tours Nanto shorts though and it shows.


Completely unrelated but this is a public service announcement to remind everyone to watch Uchouten Kazoku if they aren't.PA works has been working on it for at least 4 years and there's a whole lot of care put into that show.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Even with my True Tears fanboyism, without a doubt Uchouten Kazoku is PA Works best series ever by a comfortable margin. I believe there's one episode left so unless it spectacularly does a "Another" x 10 magnification it's going to remain that way.

The amount of care, detail, thought put in this show is beyond what I thought the studio was capable of. I was always hoping that PA Works would get a flawless high profile masterpiece out there because let's say face it, every one of their shows somewhat falls short (yes even True Tears) despite showing incrdible potential. They finally got the one big hit they needed ... quality wise anyway. It's pretty much a given this won't sell in the current market.

Which makes me pissed off even more regarding their next series, because it's going to be a run down the mill angst romance melodrama with character designs that is even uglier than Visual Arts Key.

[Triple_R]

First thing I want to say in reply to Archon is that, like Guardian Enzo, saying that something is melodramatic is not a value judgement for me. Something can be both melodramatic and good, imo.


I tend to view "very melodramatic" and "very subtle" as opposite ends of a sliding scale. I think that the best shows are somewhere in the middle third of that sliding scale, while both extreme ends have issues. Too much melodrama results in characters and a narrative that become hard to take seriously (criticisms like "They're trying too hard" and "Emotionally manipulative" and "Come on, this crying is way overdone" arise with heavy melodrama). Too much subtlety results in characters and a narrative that a lot of viewers can't figure out because not everyone picks up on those subtle cues with equal effectiveness.

So I'd say the ideal is a show that's melodramatic enough for most viewers to follow the story and understand its characters without much difficulty, but also subtle enough for viewers to take the narrative and its characters seriously.

Now... how many characters in HSI were you able to take seriously, Archon?

Now, you might be thinking "I couldn't take most of them seriously because they were lame!" Which is a fair point. But why did some of them come across as lame? I'd say part of it was how very melodramatic they were.

Enishi, Jiromaru, and Takako were probably the three HSI characters that made viewers facepalm the most. What do they have in common? Loud, flashy, very emotional, eccentric. Consider some of the cheesy dialogue between Enishi and Takako in some of their scenes together. Consider Takako's dramatized English. Consider Jiromaru's suicide attempt in Episode 3.

Now, I'm not saying that HSI is bad. Ohana's best moments were often melodrama done well, imo. "Fest it up!" and "Sparkling!" will always have a place in my heart thanks to Ohana. But let's face it, most of the HSI characters were total hams, and not all of them made it work as well as Ohana did.

True Tears had a premise more easily tied to melodrama than HSI did, but True Tears' characters were mostly grounded. Of True Tears' entire cast, only Noe is truly eccentric (no, Jun doesn't count; nothing eccentric about being a siscon in modern anime ). The rest come across as pretty normal, everyday teenagers or adults. I mean, one's the ultimate bro, one's admittedly very lovely in appearance, but all have fairly normal personalities and degrees of emotional expressiveness. There's nobody on the level of Enishi, Jiromaru, and Takako in True Tears. If we consider Ohana and Noe a wash, then HSI definitely has the more melodramatic cast, and it's not even close, imo.

You see, your viewing melodrama as something that arises mainly out of soap opera-ish plot-points and premises. That does admittedly have some influence on how melodramatic a show is, but I think the personalities of the characters is much more important.

All of that being said, I do respect your opinion. I haven't seen many K-Dramas, so perhaps I don't have the same eye-rolling reaction to common K-Drama plot points as some might.

[Pocari_Sweat]

To repeat again, I don't think HSI was ever bad. In fact it was quite good despite the facepalm moments. I much prefer it over the likes of say something like Toradora or Sakurasou, which are of a similar genre and theme but whilst HSI had maybe 4 or so episodes that were cringeworthy and it was because of these episodes that it ultimately became a disappointment. The majority of HSI episodes were actually on the decent to good end, with a handful being of exceptional quality. Toradora and Sakurasou I recall having half of their respective episodes resorting to silly slapstick, romcom or in summary "light novel" antics ... yet the majority of people I've talked to like it and praise both series, so sometimes I don't get the double standard. Maybe it's the fact it had an established LN fanbase or something I dunno. Either way it's no secret that I am generally not fond of the LN medium as an anime adaptation source. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Toradora and Sakurasou if I ignore those specific moments, but boy were they much more in your face then HSI ever was.

As to the K-drama point, something I've noticed with Okada and PA Works related animes is that a lot of them borrow live action TV elements and mix them to fit in with the anime medium. The premise of True Tears, the initial harsh oldschool grandma in Iroha, the unashamed open emotion shown in Anohana, the coming of age melancholic tone of Tari Tari and the way a lot of these shows weave in multiple love polygons (but are generally well done not like in *cough cough* light novels) are very reminiscent of daytime Korean/Japanese television. Thankfully they tone down the most annoying portion, which is excessive on-screen melodrama and crying though Anohana did test the boundaries. It's almost neo noitamina back in the early days noitamina was trying to crossover with the live action audience. For example, I could imagine PA works doing something along the likes of Honey and Clover down the line and making it work (and making it much more visually spectacular).

[Triple_R]

HSI was one of my 10 favorite shows of 2011. So I liked it a lot in spite of its weaknesses.

Slapstick comedy and romcom antics are their own thing, with an acquired taste. A little of it doesn't bother me, but it rarely makes me laugh. It's just not my preferred style of comedy. I don't recall HSI having a whole lot of slapstick comedy or romcom antics, which yeah, is definitely a reason why I also liked it more than Toradora and Sakurasou.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now... how many characters in HSI were you able to take seriously, Archon?

Now, you might be thinking "I couldn't take most of them seriously because they were lame!" Which is a fair point. But why did some of them come across as lame? I'd say part of it was how very melodramatic they were.

Enishi, Jiromaru, and Takako were probably the three HSI characters that made viewers facepalm the most. What do they have in common? Loud, flashy, very emotional, eccentric. Consider some of the cheesy dialogue between Enishi and Takako in some of their scenes together. Consider Takako's dramatized English. Consider Jiromaru's suicide attempt in Episode 3.

Now, I'm not saying that HSI is bad. Ohana's best moments were often melodrama done well, imo. "Fest it up!" and "Sparkling!" will always have a place in my heart thanks to Ohana. But let's face it, most of the HSI characters were total hams, and not all of them made it work as well as Ohana did.

In my opinion, something is melodramatic if the story itself is giving more drama to a situation than is believable. In that regards, Hanasaku Iroha was rarely, if all, melodramatic. The characters themselves may have been melodramatic, but the story always made is clear that they were being overly dramatic. The story hardly ever presented their overly dramatic displays as appropriate. It often poked fun at them for it even. I can't possibly consider that actual melodrama. That's like saying a comedy is drama just because the characters are over dramatic.

In contrast I'd say True Tears was almost ridiculously melodramatic what with the motorcycle incidents, incest angsting, nearly sacrificing chickens to Poseidon and making a bad break up seem like the penultimate event of your life. True Tears is definitely melodramatic (Note: I don't consider that bad either. I'm just saying)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

In my opinion, something is melodramatic if the story itself is giving more drama to a situation than is believable.

The drama in HSI surrounded the Inn, romance, school, career goals, personality clashes, and adjusting to a new place. Was a lot of drama involving the possible closure of the Inn warranted? Yes. But after that, I see plenty of situations where the drama surrounded it is quite melodramatic.

Did most of the things that Minko flip out over warrant that drama? No.
Did the Inn warrant the drama of Takako acting like it was a Fortune 500 company? No.
Did Ohana tracking down her mom over a bad review in a magazine warrant that drama? No, not really.

Was a lot of this entertaining, anyway? Yes. But don't tell me that Hanasaku Iroha didn't attach a lot of melodrama to its various plot situations, because it definitely did, imo.

The characters themselves may have been melodramatic, but the story always made is clear that they were being overly dramatic.

I have to disagree. The story typically had no straight-man to make this supposedly clear (Minko admittedly did fill the straight-man role to make this clear once or twice, but that was all).

The story hardly ever presented their overly dramatic displays as appropriate.

Given how dramatic the lead character herself was, I have to disagree.

In contrast I'd say True Tears was almost ridiculously melodramatic what with the motorcycle incidents, incest angsting, nearly sacrificing chickens to Poseidon and making a bad break up seem like the penultimate event of your life. True Tears is definitely melodramatic (Note: I don't consider that bad either. I'm just saying)

The motorcycle thing was weird, but I don't see how it was melodramatic. Two people get into a motorcycle crash and the motorcycle is severely damaged by it. That's not a minor annoyance, it's significant. I don't think the motorcycle incident was overly dramatized.

Incest angsting... Well, a girl relies heavily on her family because she has few friends in school (a simple fact). That family is basically her brother as the parents are nowhere to be seen. That brother then reveals incestuous desire for his sister. I don't think it's overly dramatic at all for Noe to be quite shell-shocked by that.

Bad breakups are typically made out to be a big deal in anime. And in fact, even in real life, teenagers very often react quite strongly to their first failed romance. This is definitely quite believable in my view. I think you're overstating the melodrama of it.


So I have to be frank. I almost totally disagree with you on HSI and True Tears when it comes to how melodramatic the two shows are. In my view, HSI is the much more melodramatic show of the two.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The drama in HSI surrounded the Inn, romance, school, career goals, personality clashes, and adjusting to a new place. Was a lot of drama involving the possible closure of the Inn warranted? Yes. But after that, I see plenty of situations where the drama surrounded it is quite melodramatic.

Did most of the things that Minko flip out over warrant that drama? No.
Did the Inn warrant the drama of Takako acting like it was a Fortune 500 company? No.
Did Ohana tracking down her mom over a bad review in a magazine warrant that drama? No, not really.

Was a lot of this entertaining, anyway? Yes. But don't tell me that Hanasaku Iroha didn't attach a lot of melodrama to its various plot situations, because it definitely did, imo.

But hardly any of those actually produced any drama at all. The characters acted dramatically but, like I said, the show often made it clear that they were over the top. Most things Minko flipped out over didn't produce drama or were resolved pretty easily a few minute later. Takako acting like it was a Fortune 500 company was treated comically. So was Ohana tracking down her mom over a bad review.

I have to disagree. The story typically had no straight-man to make this supposedly clear (Minko admittedly did fill the straight-man role to make this clear once or twice, but that was all).

It didn't have to. It was quite evident through the entire show.

The motorcycle thing was weird, but I don't see how it was melodramatic. Two people get into a motorcycle crash and the motorcycle is severely damaged by it. That's not a minor annoyance, it's significant. I don't think the motorcycle incident was overly dramatized.

It's a cheap source of drama to begin with.

Incest angsting... Well, a girl relies heavily on her family because she has few friends in school (a simple fact). That family is basically her brother as the parents are nowhere to be seen. That brother then reveals incestuous desire for his sister. I don't think it's overly dramatic at all for Noe to be quite shell-shocked by that.

It's more the fact that it happens twice.

Bad breakups are typically made out to be a big deal in anime. And in fact, even in real life, teenagers very often react quite strongly to their first failed romance. This is definitely quite believable in my view. I think you're overstating the melodrama of it.

I don't think I am. The entire scene was total ham.

[Triple_R]

This is becoming like the debate I recently had on the Love Lab thread about what's comedy, and what's drama. One man's comedy rooted in character's acting "over the top" can easily be another man's melodrama. I definitely don't think that the nature of these HSI scenes is as "clear" or as "quite evident" as you try to pass them off as.

Consider how badly-done melodrama often results in laughter anyway, making it almost indistinguishable from over-the-top hammy comedy. It's very easy for melodrama and hammy comedy to get mixed and blurred in the mind of viewers. This is especially true when it leads to meaningful character development and serious pathos (such as in the case of Love Lab, and also in the case of Ohana tracking down her mom over the bad magazine review of the Inn).

So your array of HSI screenshots don't really prove anything, since people can take it as hammy melodrama just as easily as they can take it as hammy comedy. If I was to take a certain scene from the last episode of AnoHana, and show it to people with no familiarity with the show, they may well think it's over-the-top hammy comedy. But I'm pretty sure it was meant to be heartfelt drama, it just executed it with too much melodrama.

Originally Posted by Haak

Most things Minko flipped out over didn't produce drama or were resolved pretty easily a few minute later.

"Die!" didn't produce drama? That became a major bone of contention between Ohana and Minko for quite some time.

And let's not forget a certain omurice situation. That definitely wasn't just comedy, and it was a major plot conflict over two episodes. That omurice dispute was treated pretty seriously by everybody involved. And for omurice to cause that much drama is definitely a case of "giving more drama to a situation than is believable."

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

First thing I want to say in reply to Archon is that, like Guardian Enzo, saying that something is melodramatic is not a value judgement for me. Something can be both melodramatic and good, imo.


I tend to view "very melodramatic" and "very subtle" as opposite ends of a sliding scale. I think that the best shows are somewhere in the middle third of that sliding scale, while both extreme ends have issues. Too much melodrama results in characters and a narrative that become hard to take seriously (criticisms like "They're trying too hard" and "Emotionally manipulative" and "Come on, this crying is way overdone" arise with heavy melodrama). Too much subtlety results in characters and a narrative that a lot of viewers can't figure out because not everyone picks up on those subtle cues with equal effectiveness.

I'm with Haak somewhat in that melodrama is significantly dramatizing an event and putting emphasis on it. Although I don't necessarily think it makes it less believable; this is fiction after all.

It is not always a bad thing. Ano Hana highlighted it very well and was sort of over the top on it, but that's exactly why it worked. You really felt like these people had some real issues and it was really killing them. It can symbolize a level of passion in the work. The feelings are very strong, though yes, sometimes it went way overboard (sniff dress >.>).

And at the same time we can look at True Tears and it too had this sort of theatrical atmosphere to it, like it was some kind of play of some great event to be described. This gave what I considered somewhat mundane events to more of an epic scale, of which many people remember those rivalries. Kinda like pro wrestling.

On the same level, I think something like Kanon overall is more melodramatic than Clannad (until you get to After Story) Kanon seemed to always have something that was of utmost urgency; it always seemed like the plot was always following the characters or some crap like some kind of moe girl snuff anime. >.> Air of course, was passing itself off as a tragedy from the start so that is the most. Of course, I like Key, so it's not always bad.

I don't think Hanairo was just like that on the same stage. I think Hana Saku Iroha was more in line with your slice of life anime where stuff just occurs and its more about the experience rather than the sense of urgency and angst the former two go through. Usagi Drop would be the most subtle example, of course Hanairo is more ridiculous than that, but you get my point hopefully. And to me, I enjoyed the show most when everyone was just doing their thing, having fun, and of course the random bickering. You just always had a life goes on thing.

Now... how many characters in HSI were you able to take seriously, Archon?

Now, you might be thinking "I couldn't take most of them seriously because they were lame!" Which is a fair point. But why did some of them come across as lame? I'd say part of it was how very melodramatic they were.

Enishi, Jiromaru, and Takako were probably the three HSI characters that made viewers facepalm the most. What do they have in common? Loud, flashy, very emotional, eccentric. Consider some of the cheesy dialogue between Enishi and Takako in some of their scenes together. Consider Takako's dramatized English. Consider Jiromaru's suicide attempt in Episode 3.

Oh eww, I blocked them out, Triple. You have a point with Einshi and Takako, but I think given who Jiromaru was based on, I think that was for comedic purposes.

But Triple, I tended to view these characters like I view the characters from Married with Children or many of the other shows that have unsympathetic comedy characters.

Anyhow, I wouldn't lie to say the characters were hammy too. If True Tears is hammy in the Wrath of KHAAAANNN Style, Hana Iro is closer to Voyager, lol. And yes I would use that song to describe the feel of it.

Now, I'm not saying that HSI is bad. Ohana's best moments were often melodrama done well, imo. "Fest it up!" and "Sparkling!" will always have a place in my heart thanks to Ohana. But let's face it, most of the HSI characters were total hams, and not all of them made it work as well as Ohana did.

True Tears had a premise more easily tied to melodrama than HSI did, but True Tears' characters were mostly grounded. Of True Tears' entire cast, only Noe is truly eccentric (no, Jun doesn't count; nothing eccentric about being a siscon in modern anime ). The rest come across as pretty normal, everyday teenagers or adults. I mean, one's the ultimate bro, one's admittedly very lovely in appearance, but all have fairly normal personalities and degrees of emotional expressiveness. There's nobody on the level of Enishi, Jiromaru, and Takako in True Tears. If we consider Ohana and Noe a wash, then HSI definitely has the more melodramatic cast, and it's not even close, imo.

You see, your viewing melodrama as something that arises mainly out of soap opera-ish plot-points and premises. That does admittedly have some influence on how melodramatic a show is, but I think the personalities of the characters is much more important.

But yea, I tend to view it terms of plot, because that's where the atmosphere comes from. I'm like Haak in that we went "wtf" with motorcycle explosions and chicken sacrifices. Nobody will doubt the characters in True Tears were more subtly defined, but I don't man, why did Micheal Bay invade the script? Why didn't Jiromaru explode instead? Well ok, Hana Saku Iroha had one really wtf scene...

Spoiler:

Ohana walks around and gets approached by seedy men immediately after seeing Kou ... which lead to drama and her being saved by Tohru and Minko. That was the first time I got the "all men are evil vibe" from this show This scene just happens and is never mentioned again.

I personally felt Ohana's best moments were the more subtle, introspective ones. That's usually my preference though.

Or another example, Nanoha and Nanoha A's had many dramatic moments, but given the tone of the series, I wouldn't consider it melodramatic.

Oh and btw of well tuned atmospheric drama, True Tours is quite nice. I watched two episodes of it, and it has that nice visual styles True Tears had instead of the weirder ones they've been using lately; and the music was very appropriate as well. Once again, I can see they really loved True Tears.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is becoming like the debate I recently had on the Love Lab thread about what's comedy, and what's drama. One man's comedy rooted in character's acting "over the top" can easily be another man's melodrama. I definitely don't think that the nature of these HSI scenes is as "clear" or as "quite evident" as you try to pass them off as.

I think they are. Whilst I can accept some ambiguity emerging in certain other shows, I refuse to accept any ambiguity in any of the scenes I've shown. They're all meant to be taken light-heartedly. They may sometimes often lead to dramatic moments but unless you consider those specific dramatic moments melodramatic then that's a moot point. And most of those actual serious moments rarely featured characters acting over the top. They usually act overly dramatic when the show is trying to be zany.

Consider how badly-done melodrama often results in laughter anyway, making it almost indistinguishable from over-the-top hammy comedy.

Actually, I don't think I've ever had a problem in distinguishing unintentional comedy from intentional comedy.

"Die!" didn't produce drama? That became a major bone of contention between Ohana and Minko for quite some time.

Something that was mostly played for laughs and ended up being resolved by Minko calling her a new nickname, which was also played for laughs. It produced drama but I think being being sandwiched in between comedy gave it a pretty clear context that the drama wasn't that big of a deal. It was definitely a point of contention but I never once considered it melodramatic.

And let's not forget a certain omurice situation. That definitely wasn't just comedy, and it was a major plot conflict over two episodes. That omurice dispute was treated pretty seriously by everybody involved. And for omurice to cause that much drama is definitely a case of "giving more drama to a situation than is believable."

The actual conflict lasted just over half an episode and was resolved in typical HSI fashion in that the problem turned out to be less serious than it was initially thought. And I never found it unbelievable: People can be stupidly stubborn in how they want things done and that produces very believable friction in team dynamics. And it was given the appropriate amount of time it deserved as a side story.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Which makes me pissed off even more regarding their next series, because it's going to be a run down the mill angst romance melodrama with character designs that is even uglier than Visual Arts Key.

Are you comparing to KyoAni's designs or Key's here?
http://tinypic.com/r/2i74by1/5
http://tinypic.com/r/2wlu6u9/5
Because... yeah.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And let's not forget a certain omurice situation. That definitely wasn't just comedy, and it was a major plot conflict over two episodes. That omurice dispute was treated pretty seriously by everybody involved. And for omurice to cause that much drama is definitely a case of "giving more drama to a situation than is believable."

Yuki's supporters are serious about it because they know how badly Yuki wants to confess to Kirito. Minko treats it seriously because she's treating it like her job rather than a cultural festival event. The omurice is merely how those two forces end up clashing.

And Haak is right, it does return to comedy rather quickly... remember, the day of the festival scene includes such line as "I hate myself for even suggesting to add that dish to the menu" and (Yuina's straight man moment) "It's like I'm watching a teen drama."

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well ok, Hana Saku Iroha had one really wtf scene...

Spoiler:

Ohana walks around and gets approached by seedy men immediately after seeing Kou ... which lead to drama and her being saved by Tohru and Minko. That was the first time I got the "all men are evil vibe" from this show This scene just happens and is never mentioned again.

For the record, I don't think that bit was meant to cause drama on its own. I think the purpose of that was to contribute to a "worst day of my life" sort of feeling. It's raining hard, she feels like crap after running away from Ko and failing miserably against her mum, and to top it off these a-holes come out of nowhere and start harrassing her and she just crumbles under the weight.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Nobody will doubt the characters in True Tears were more subtly defined,

I thank you for raising this, because this is a key point to me. Yes, the characters in True Teas are more subtly defined than the characters in HSI are. And in my view, that's the most important measure of subtle vs. melodrama.

If a show relies primarily on hammy comedy and/or melodrama to define its characters, that's not exactly subtle.

So I stand by my position - True Tears is a more subtle work than HSI.

I may reply later to some of the arguments that 0utf0xZer0 and Haak raised. But I will respond to one point now...

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Are you comparing to KyoAni's designs or Key's here?
http://tinypic.com/r/2i74by1/5
http://tinypic.com/r/2wlu6u9/5
Because... yeah.



Yuki's supporters are serious about it because they know how badly Yuki wants to confess to Kirito.

So Yuki's supporters are making a big deal over Yuki wanting to confess. So how exactly is that any less melodramatic than Noe making a big deal over a bad breakup, which was one of Haak's main points concerning True Tears? In both cases, an anime show is greatly dramatizing teenage romance, just from opposite ends chronologically. If anything, I would say that a bad breakup is typically more emotionally impacting than a longing to confess. And heck, with Yuki's supporters, it's even a case of drama by proxy. At least with Noe, she personally suffered a bad breakup.

The omurice bit had a lot of melodrama to it. You and Haak are downplaying it too much, imo.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I thank you for raising this, because this is a key point to me. Yes, the characters in True Teas are more subtly defined than the characters in HSI are. And in my view, that's the most important measure of subtle vs. melodrama.

If a show relies primarily on hammy comedy and/or melodrama to define its characters, that's not exactly subtle.

So I stand by my position - True Tears is a more subtle work than HSI.

I may reply later to some of the arguments that 0utf0xZer0 and Haak raised. But I will respond to one point now...

For the record, I don't think True Tears is more subtly defined, primarily because it relied too much on melodrama.

So Yuki's supporters are making a big deal over Yuki wanting to confess. So how exactly is that any less melodramatic than Noe making a big deal over a bad breakup, which was one of Haak's main points concerning True Tears? In both cases, an anime show is greatly dramatizing teenage romance, just from opposite ends chronologically. If anything, I would say that a bad breakup is typically more emotionally impacting than a longing to confess. And heck, with Yuki's supporters, it's even a case of drama by proxy. At least with Noe, she personally suffered a bad breakup.

The omurice bit had a lot of melodrama to it. You and Haak are downplaying it too much, imo.

The drama in HSI lasted around 10 minutes, was resolved without any drama at all and even had a straightman moment of a character lampshading on the drama. Most importantly, the principle perspective of the whole debacle wasn't Yuki nor even Minko: The main perspective was Ohana who simply viewed it as an awkward situation ( which is how we were meant to view it). Even more was that the whole point afterwards is that they realised they were being overdramatic and shouldn't have been. Compare that to the break up which was the final major event of the show with episodes of build up accompanied by the most dramatic music you'll ever hear. Like I said, it isn't the characters being dramatic that matters. Its the show.

[Guardian Enzo]

There are many broadly accepted definitions of melodrama (easily researchable to anyone who cares to do so). Using any one of them. HSI is far more melodramatic than True Tears. That doesn't mean you can't like HSI better, but to call it less melodramatic you pretty much have to use a custom-made definition designed to support the argument.

[Haak]

Thanks for being so helpful.

So what's your custom made definition?

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm happy with the historically accepted ones, thanks. But I'm not trying to prove a case that doesn't fit with them.