2013-01-09, 15:54 | Link #31601 | |||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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I am, Except you can provide a clue as to wwhere Kinzo's corpse was hidden the entire time and another one that it has never been moved. No matter what in several EPs it was necessary to move the corpse at some point. Either to burn it or to make sure nobody discovers it when entering the study. So yes the body was indeed moved around.
Depending on the way it was preserved fingerpointing would still be possible, as Rigor Morts is LONG over. Quote:
Tea party: Magic scene not trustable Kanon's EP4 red: He has most likely no body of his own, so this red shouldn't be taken to literally imho. Quote:
Which would have normally been the last one (replace revivial with birth for this episode), yet her corpse was discovered before the others. "[...] She was the sacrifice for the birth of the new witch. " Source: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Rosa_Ushiromiya Quote:
Shes uses a different wording than i wrote down, the contents are the same though: EP 5 Manga Ch 19 Page 15 Virgillia: It is impossible that they are playing dead <- referring to the George, jessica, Maria, Rosa and Genji. The sisters saying it doesn't make it less credible btw. She gives 3 more reds btw.
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2013-01-09, 15:57 | Link #31602 |
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The problem is, someone is still guilty... or it's an accident. Either way, we ought to be able to say one of those two things. The fact that we can't creates a presumption of innocence, to be sure, and personally I'd prefer to believe an accident in Prime over any of the characters as I know them being guilty... but it doesn't change the truth. And if the truth exists anywhere, it ought to be known, at least as much of it as we have.
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2013-01-09, 18:36 | Link #31603 | |
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Shortly after the cousins 'disappeard', they were killed in the forest or somewhere in the tunnels. Only then Virgillia confirmed that red. Or you have an better idea? I mean you also have to consider that their bodies were not moved after their death. Well it is also possible that their bodies were not there to begin with.
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2013-01-09, 18:44 | Link #31604 | |||||||||||||
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Definitely, unless most of the plot is a lie, the one who seems to be the target for deception is Natsuhi, not Erika. Erika seems more like 'the detective who got in the way of the plan' however, as she was closed minded, in the end she ended up being used by the siblings to reach their goal. There's to say that the cousins might have believed they were playing a prank to Erika (or even Shannon as I always wondered why Umineko felt the need to show us that Battler phoned to Jessica prior to reaching Rokkenjima in Ep 5) and that's why they played along as I doubt Jessica would have agreed into faking her own death so as to cause pain to her mother and then let Natsuhi be considered the culprit for it. Quote:
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Still, showing to Erika the gold is odd as they don't know if she's trustworthy and... well, the gold isn't supposed to become public domain. If he had already had the solution and saw the gold, making her join in the 'hunt' should have had some sort of reason (he could have tried to distract her and force her to stay inside so that she couldn't go out to search...) and the only one I can think of is that the discovery had to look 'incidental'... and it's a weak explanation. Hum.... I've to think more at all this... Quote:
- a witch officially handing him that red - proofs. Bern could hand some red for which Erika had no proofs but it was likely done with Lambda's permission. Virgilia wasn't allowed to hand that red and he couldn't find anything to confirm it so, although true, that red didn't hold any value in court. Quote:
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Either Ryukishi is blatantly lying or it's a clue about how the epitaph wasn't solved. However in Ep 5 is sure the gold was 'found' as Erika witnessed it and saw it being showed to the siblings. So the gold was found in a way that didn't include the epitaph being solved and the only way to do so is for Battler to be handed the solution. Quote:
MetaBattler of Ep 5 confirmed he didn't have a clue about how to solve the epitaph and comment that his piece version is pretty smart and we know is piece version is being manipulated by Bern who got that knowledge by peeping on other fragments. Quote:
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Mind you, I'm not saying it's impossible that Battler solved the epitaph on his own but there are hints that imply that the epitaph wasn't solved in Ep despite the gold being found and, although the idea of Battler's characterization being closer to the truth is a good and possible one the gap between the two Battlers abilities seems to wide. Quote:
If Battler saw Kinzo's corpse in Ep 5 I think it's more likely he did when he was handed the solution to the epitaph. Maybe it was how Yasu/Beato/TMF19YA got his cooperation: she persuaded him to uncover Natsuhi and Krauss' lie by forcing them to confess. In the beginning Battler might have believed it was the right thing to do then he could have started feeling pity for Natsuhi. Quote:
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I'll say George is definitely dead. |
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2013-01-09, 19:08 | Link #31605 | ||
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Also the "Genius Battler" Theory from EP6. And didn't you wonder, why Battler suddenly lost all his "mystery knowledge" (that we got to know about in EP5 and EP7) in the first Episodes, that he was supposed to have? So he read a lot of mysteries and shared his expieriences with Shannon, but did not even know what whodunnit, howdunnit and whydunnit are? Used theories that involve fishing poles under the edge of the door, or "small bombs in the food" although his piece version in EP5 seems more knowledgeble about mysteries (and their tricks) than Erika?
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2013-01-09, 19:50 | Link #31606 | |||
Detective
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I suspected Battler to have mistaken a dead Kinzo for an alive Kinzo, as this wouldn't violate any reds about him. After that I just explained one way to mistake a dead Kinzo for an alive Kinzo. This explanation fits in as soon as we get to the Golden truth were battler searches for a possibility of Kinzo being dead after all and says something along the lines that there is one corpse he could use for that. Note you still can't mistake Kinzo for someone else, the corpse however had to be shown in one way or another or the golden truth would have been inferior to red. So the only way to make the Golden truth stronger than Dlanor's red, and block her from using Knox 8, is that a clue about 'that' body has been shown. Battler claimed to have seen Kinzo, and there is no way he could mistake anyone else for him. Mistaking a piece of cloth for him is also forbidden. This does indeed only leave two options: - Battler lied - Battler mistook dead Kinzo for an alive Kinzo, the corpse was moved by the culprit in order to achieve the goal of making Kinzo look 'alive' if you don't stand right next to him. Is it sick? Yes it is. (This is btw why I was asked if I'm serious I think) Why even trying to think in such ways then: Remember EP 2's first twilight. Kinzo being moved around is still ways below the scale that was set there.
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2013-01-09, 20:32 | Link #31607 | |||||||||||||||||
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I wouldn't even be sure that MetaBattler of Ep 5 is smarter than MetaBattler of Ep 2. The main difference between the two is that in Ep 2 he thought he had to deal with a real life mystery and felt horror at the idea one of his relatives could have done it. In Ep 5 he finally became aware it's all a game and so he managed to solve it. Quote:
And anyway Genius Battler theory still doesn't explain how the epitaph was solved but murders continued. Also we don't really know how good Battler was at solving the mysteries he read. He might have been pretty bad at it and totally unable to apply the solutions he knew once he was facing what he believed was a real mystery. And not that in Ep 1 he mentions mystery books... though in the end he can't figure out the tricks used because he's going at it in the completely wrong way, by trying to find an extra person and blame him/her in place of his relatives because he can't deal witht he idea one of them might do something that horrible... a problem he likely didn't have when reading a book. And who says he didn't know whodunnit, howdunnit and whydunnit? Battler mentions more than once references to mystery novels: Quote:
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Is Battler really incompetent? Or he's being just a mystery lover that's facing a real murder case involving people he loves? He's likely aware that in books the detective has detective authority or whatever you want to call it but he perceives himself as in the real world so, even in Ep 4 when he inspect the corpses he thinks the police can complain about it. When in Ep 2 Beato remembers him Nanjo might be an accomplice (as he suspected in Ep 1) and suggests him to personally check if the guys are really dead Battler is fighting in order not to cry. I doubt he would have cried while reading a mystery novel. And there are mentions of mystery novels in Ep 2 as well, and in 4. Battler definitely had mystery knowledge prior to Ep 5. So, genius Battler. If you remove from him the possibility he solved the epitaph his other accomplishments are 3. Finding the culprit for Beato's games, creating an alternate solution for Ep 5 and building up a mystery in Ep 6 who required to be solved by ShKanon then letting himself be trapped in a logic error so that Beato could solve it. Note that: Will found the culprit just using the hints from ep 1 to 4 (and we were supposed to do so as well according to Ryukishi), so he was more of a genius than Battler. The first tricks presented in Ep 6 are pretty lame and really if the game had taken place in the real world Erika would have easily realized Battler and Co were faking their death as they were likely breating and their heart was beating. If Erika had merely pressed a pillow on their face out of instinct they would have had to move to try to get some air, revealing their 'alive' status. Genius Battler isn't really that smart the same way Ep 1-4 Battler isn't really that dumb, they merely looks so due to circumstances. Quote:
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Note that even Natsuhi used red Quote:
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It seems way more likely that Battler lied or that his words were misunderstood as I theorized in my previous post. Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-01-09 at 20:51. |
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2013-01-09, 21:12 | Link #31608 | ||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Aye, in her case she said something only she could have known though.
Anybody could have smashed that one, he wasn't allowed to say it. Quote:
The only way to be superior to Knox 8 in this particular case is having a clue. And yes i know that Dlanor countered it with Knox 2nd, probably because she knew which body Battler was talking about. Quote:
As long as the corpse has one of Kinzo's suits there is nothing wrong with not realizing that he is already dead. its just a theory to give some sense to the words Battler said briefly before the golden truth though.
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2013-01-09, 21:24 | Link #31609 | |
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Here's Kinzo's case. He was never a human. What I'm talking about is the whole Goldsmith idea. The TIPS from the anime straight out say for EP4 that the image of Kinzo summoning the Chiesters and the Demons is not the human Kinzo, but the great and powerful Goldsmith. A similar situation to EVA in EP3. It looked like Eva, but was it really her? It looked like Kinzo, but it was Goldsmith. Is it too far a leap to assume that Kinzo was *never* playing for the human side? All he talked about was the roulette and hum wanting to summon Beatrice again. Humans can't summon witches. Kanon however, was a "human" character, or at least tried to fight for his right to live as a human. If he or Shannon won, the certainly the witch might then have lost. Sure, he fell to the witch and Yasu merely continued to dress as him to confuse people. But if the Kanon inside her would have won... if he had never "died", certainly he would have cast away his anger for Battler and would have just ended the ceremony or maybe would have never started it to begin with. Kanon and Shannon may have been the same person. The both contradict the witch, so they can be placed on the "human" side. Since they each have their own separate goals and motives, they can be seen as seperate pieces. This is why Kinzo would not be counted when Erika introduced herself in EP6, but Shkanon could be counted as separate people and thus Erika became the 18th human.
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2013-01-09, 22:59 | Link #31610 | |||
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2013-01-10, 12:18 | Link #31611 | ||||||||||
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Also the fact that when MetaBattler 'awakens' in the ???-tea party, we lose his point of view that we were following for 5 games long and suddenly he knew about things like the golden truth. The same happened with his piece version, but for that one already at the beginning of the EP. Quote:
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Because of that Piece'Beatrice' never found out about it and assumed that no one solved the epitaph yet. Quote:
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Also we get disattached from Battler's POV at the end of EP5 and if we suppose "Genius Battler" is true, then most of the things we see in EP6 from Battler's POV is a lie too. In that case it is hard to really evaluate Battler in these episodes. But the 'lame' tricks are supposed to be 'lame'. That is part of the plan of getting trapped in the room. If you see it like this, it seems evident that he really looked down on Erika. And i understand why: She is a lame 'Meta-gamer' (her piece version preparing for a murder although she shouldn't know anything about a murder taking place at that point.) and even then she is unable to win the game. It is as if someone uses cheats in a game, but still loses. So he set the 'difficulty' very low and still won... RandomAvatarFan will hate me for saying this.
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2013-01-10, 13:11 | Link #31612 | |
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He was trying to prove innocent someone who had everything pointing out to her being the culprit and was actually responsible for some amoral stuff going on. Yet out of nothing but faith, he wanted to prove her innocent. And doing so, he solved everything. Furthermore your suggestion reminds me of the red: Battler immediately figured out red was a weapon that the witch would only use as a way to attack us. It took him much longer to figure out it was also a source of clues. We're very much in contrast to this, we constantly considered the red to be the "only reliable clues" and I still think some people haven't figured out (or accepted) that the red was, as Battler said right away, a weapon used to attack our reasoning. We looked down on Battler and considered his reasoning to have grew up when he started to consider the red a source of hints, but that's actually exactly where he was led astray. Just like we've been. Basically what I'm saying is that even tho we tend to look down on him and the story pushes that even further, I think it's likely Battler's "wild guesses" are very close to the mark most of the time. |
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2013-01-10, 19:11 | Link #31613 | |||||||
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I'm not sure I would equate personality to ability.
Battler trying to solve the epitaph or to protect Beato or to act in a certain way with Dlanor must fit his personality but Battler being able to pull out all that successfully is tied to his ability and to calculate the amount of ability to do something is pretty hard to do. (this of course doesn't keep in consideration the fact that the Japanese word used might include personality and ability). All this to say: it's possible that deep down Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph (like theoretically any Japanese reader) but the problem is the stark difference between that Battler and the other in regard to how easily he does, a difference that even Battler marks as 'strange'. In Ep 6, although smart enough to figure out the same answer as Erika in the quiz Battler doesn't reason it out as smoothly as he did with the epitaph. Quote:
After all he didn't know about the logic error and needed to be instructed about it by Genji. But honestly the golden truth is so random and unexplained I really wouldn't try to base any reasoning on it. Also, he had a golden sword. If red sword can use red truth it was pretty reasonable to assume golden sword uses gold truth. Quote:
In Ep 4 he will still try to put the blame on an extra person before surrendering on the idea there's no extra person and will search for pitfalls. In Ep 5 he still feels pity for Natsuhi at the idea she's faking talking with Beato when she's alone. That Natsuhi is just a character, not the real Natsuhi. He also is afraid at the idea he might be the killer. He surely has improved a lot and keeps on improving compared to Ep 1 & 2 but it's only in the end he seems to truly figure out the game as he claimed himself as the evil culprit, not shying away from the idea it implied his piece version killed his cousins and aunt in cold blood. Quote:
But pieceBattler in Ep 5 found the gold and (apart from the cousins) everyone knew about it Yasu included as she handed him the ring and, what matter the most, Erika as well since this assure us that the scene in which the family saw the gold was reliable. At this point, if he had found the gold because he solved the epitaph, the murders should have stopped. The murders continue instead ergo the epitaph wasn't solved. It's this the core of the problem. We can discuss about the other details ab nauseam but regardless by them until someone doesn't come up with a satisfing answer on why in Ep 3 & 5 the murders continued when they were supposed to stop because the epitaph was solved and Yasu knew it I'm not going to believe Battler found the solution to the epitaph on his own in Ep 5. Quote:
Repeating stuffs isn't a requisite to use red as Natsuhi and Battler successfully used red in Ep 4 & 5 without having to repeat anything. Quote:
Where would be the clue for the golden truth used by Beato the elder in Ep 6? Especially considering they knew it was a trick? And which would be then the difference between a golden truth without proofs and a red truth without proofs? or between a between a golden truth with proofs and a red truth with proofs? The colour? Why one is labelled as golden and the other isn't? LOL, that movie! And considering we're talking of a Kinzo wandering around and magic and rituals then we should also consider Weekend at Bernie's II. Was there some music playing on Rokkenjima? Quote:
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It destroys some reasoning, that's for sure, but it also gives clues. If we didn't get some confirmations any scene Battler didn't witness could be waved off as fantasy. We could say Beatrice Castiglioni never existed, Kinzo stole the gold to... mafia guys then embellished his tale creating a mystery woman and ended up so enamoured with it he had a painter make a fake paint and in his last years of life even started believing his fantasy really happened. The baby that fell from the cliff was a mere orphan. Kuwadorian was Kinzo's secret harem filled with pretty blond women. Knox actually isn't a rule on the gameboard and Rokkenjima is filled with people hiding in the forest. And closed rooms were never closed room to begin with, not even for a moment. Oh, and of course everyone was murdered by traps or committed suicide. Red allows us to establish some things... if correctly used. Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-01-10 at 19:24. |
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2013-01-10, 20:50 | Link #31614 | |
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A red without proof is still kind of ridiculous even so, but whatever. That's all I can really think of to explain the difference. Since I'm sort of one of those who thinks gold was pulled out of somebody's ass, I don't think we're ever going to get a more meaningful distinction than that. EDIT: Oh here's an example of a human truth that you could state in red that you can't prove. Say you're accused of a crime and you know that I was in my house all night, but can't present any specific evidence that proves that. You know it's true, but everybody else may not believe you.
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2013-01-10, 22:09 | Link #31615 | |
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Hmm. That's an interesting way to look at it. I hadn't thought of it because it had always felt to me as though the early story was presenting meta-Battler as being too naive. Beatrice seemed to go out of her way to make Battler suspect certain people, and his trust in people really did come of as a hindrance to him defeating the witch. Not to mention Krauss and Natsuhi in Our Confessions, and meta-Beatrice musing about how no one could possibly figure out how the letters appeared without suspecting them... Yeah, I can't quite buy your interpretation (well, at least as it's been presented so far).
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Actually, this is exactly what gold truth must be for. If you think about it, our own personal gold truth is ultimately all we have to rely on to understand the story, since we can't be 100% certain of anything being reliable, even red. That's why gold truth is called "a human truth" and red "a witch's truth". |
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2013-01-11, 01:00 | Link #31616 | |||
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In Natsuhis case it was somesthing she could definitely say herself, regardless of whether she was a witch or not. It was a simple truth only Natsuhi herself could know about. Not even Shanon would know that she was the only one who was tald. Plus in this case its very likely that 'lamda just colored her sentence' red. Regarding battler: EP 5: Before completely understanding the rules: Natsuhi not culprit: Repeated from virgilia and also granted by her Knox rules: The rules were a fact, plus Dlanor said them so often (notably in red) that this is also just 'repeating' After understanding the rules: After that he became game-master like, thus allowed to use the red, as a gamemaster. Quote:
This theory is simpy the logical consequence of the explaination Dlanor provided. Dlanor herself said that it can be weaker than red or stronger than red. And considering how battler always spoke of 'that body' as if we had all seen it already one can easily conclude that something like the corpse moval might have happened. And tbh, it wouldn't surpise me. We were shown and escribed scenes that were much worse. The point is, you don't think of it as 'that body' if you don't have a specific one in mind already. From that one can conclude that we were hinted that the corpse exists in EP 5 too. Quote:
For example the one that Genji couldn't have left his room becauuse Eva sealed it and there were no finger prints. If Erika had sealed that room ok, she has the detective authority and is thus allowed to seal a room perfectly. Eva however is not, so Genji could have actually left his room from the window in EP 5. Ep 6 gives the hint for that.
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2013-01-11, 03:00 | Link #31617 | ||
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2013-01-11, 05:51 | Link #31618 | |
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We are thinking of two different explainations about the golden truth here.
I'm thinking about the two sentences Dlanor provided when Erika was like 'wth?!' Quote:
Not necessarily, you wouldn't misidentify Kinzo for someone else here or the other way around. Umineko has, as Bern hinted, a lot of wordplays so Battler could have either lied or, as absurd as it might sound, really seen Kinzo. Since we already know that he is long gone the only valid way would be having seen his corpse. Thinking a dead Kinzo is an alive Kinzo is very likely the loophole of this red, just as the loophole of Natsuhi's red is that Shanon could have told anyone just because she felt like it. If you look at it from that light, Natsuhi's red appears to be there for the sole purpose of confusing people. So a dead Kinzo moving around, by whatever means, is pretty much the loophole of the red about him.
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2013-01-11, 08:59 | Link #31619 | |
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Also, I have it on good authority the manga of 8 says the message bottles are different practices stories that Yasu created for Battler that day, so a "what if I won completely" or "what if I never even truly appeared", which makes their existence much more sensible from a motive standpoint. What does a slightly loopy mystery lover do with her discarded drafts? Throw them into the ocean of course. |
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2013-01-11, 13:02 | Link #31620 | |
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Heck... look how BATTLER handled Ep6. Why did Shkanon switch places with Battler on the gameboard... because... he (the game master) was... trapped in a logic error?
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