GATE - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

the itami running away part at the start was kind of stupid. assassins won't be able to follow you since you use random chance as a guide? how about the tire trails? should be the easiest pursuit ever.

it's not about ditching pursuit, it's about hiding destination.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

As others have mentioned, it was necessary. If he simply harbored someone declared to be an enemy of the state by imperial law on humanitarian reasons, he would be giving Zolzal reason to attack. They know he's going to take action against them, it's necessary to establish that the Empire isn't a pushover as he thinks it has been to that point. But they want him to make the first move for both reasons of relations with the locals and public relations with other nations back home. If they catch him doing something that welcomes retaliation and isn't a matter of state affairs, they'll be able to move in and help those that opposed the tyrant. But if they take citizens guilty of treason and refuse to let them go, this is practically tantamount to open hostility. This will give Zolzal validation and justification to attack them. However, declaring her his fiancé, he manages to create a prior agreement and contractual relationship that gives him responsibility for Sherry and also gives her a very strong direct connection to Japan, thus providing an opening and allowing him to lay "claim" to that single "traitor".
Also, what's wrong with consenting to marry a girl in a few years? He never said she couldn't break the contract later; while engagement was often a relatively serious contract a long time ago, it was not absolutely binding and could be broken off. On paper, it's a contractual relationship creating a clear relationship to a Japanese individual, but at the same time it is a situation that gives both parties full freedom to break the agreement. His behavior has made it fairly clear that he's not doing this out of romantic feelings toward her, so regardless of its legal ramifications what it amounts to is his telling her that he's not refusing and will consider it if her heart hasn't changed in the next 4 years.

Again, he's in a very tense situation politically, tenser than you seem to realize. If he hadn't declared her to be his future bride, he would have had to either turn her over to torture and possible violation or give the acting emperor a gift-wrapped excuse to go to war. And that's the absolute last thing they want to do. If they give him reason, then it'll be harder to make him stop and they'll have to basically pound him into submission because he's just trying to right a wrong done to him; but if they just let him come to him, then they're only defending themselves from unprovoked violence, which is a much simpler situation for someone who wants to end things quickly. It's much more difficult to call for a cease fire if you're the one who started the war.

And I've already written that none of that holds water. Again: the marriage angle is neither necessary nor helpful. And they should want Zorzal to attack them, but ultimately they don't even need it. (Also, if you think Zorzal is the type who attacks to defend his rights rather than because he can get away with it, we've got completely different reads on him.)

[Nachtwandler]

Yes. In terms of relations with locals Japans politics with Zorzal is stupid. But you have to consider that the government is new. And as was showed last season, opposition and other countries will use any opportunity to crush it. If they find a reason to say that Japanese provoked this war, it will be worse than conflict with Empire.

not to mention that it is the exact thing Tyuule wants.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

the itami running away part at the start was kind of stupid. assassins won't be able to follow you since you use random chance as a guide? how about the tire trails? should be the easiest pursuit ever.

No, they won't be able to ambush them.
Since there's no way to get ahead of the car, as not even the drivers know where they are going.

[konart]

I'm amazed that absolutely innocent scene with Sherry results in so many weird discussions.

[Domonkazu]

tbh, If I was in Sugawara's shoes I don't think I would wage my reputation to save someone who I just know in few weeks. Getting fired is one thing, but labelled as a pedo is a whole another level, I would commit suicide xD.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Isn't fascinating, that leaving an innocent child to die is somehow not going to harm your reputation?

[konart]

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

tbh, If I was in Sugawara's shoes I don't think I would wage my reputation to save someone who I just know in few weeks. Getting fired is one thing, but labelled as a pedo is a whole another level, I would commit suicide xD.

But why would you or anyone be labeled as such after doing of something like this?

He clearly shows nothing that can be interpreted as pedophilia. This is like calling someone pedophile, just because he saved a poor child from burning alive by tearing down the burning clothes. -_-'

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

tbh, If I was in Sugawara's shoes I don't think I would wage my reputation to save someone who I just know in few weeks. Getting fired is one thing, but labelled as a pedo is a whole another level, I would commit suicide xD.

I'd keep it simple. Invite her to tour Japan's scenic embassy gardens first, argue about the illegality of handing her over later. If that's even necessary, which I don't think it would be. The ambassador didn't look unsympathetic. Worry about any other consequences even later.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And I've already written that none of that holds water. Again: the marriage angle is neither necessary nor helpful. And they should want Zorzal to attack them, but ultimately they don't even need it. (Also, if you think Zorzal is the type who attacks to defend his rights rather than because he can get away with it, we've got completely different reads on him.)

How is the marriage unnecessary? Yes they want him to attack them, but if he attacks them for harboring a criminal, things will be complicated for them. They don't want to give him any excuse to come after them, because that would make things far more complicated and troublesome for the Japanese government. They ultimately want a peaceful agreement, not conquest. Talking peace when the war started because they interfered with internal matters like the capture of a criminal guilty of high treason would be very difficult, hardly less difficult than if they just launched an unprovoked attack, and there would be more lives lost, not to mention their reputation would suffer on both sides of the Gate because some would say that they instigated the war. This is why he was even supposed to throw Sherry to the wolves. At the last moment he decided that he couldn't let her be captured, so he grabbed at the only excuse he could think of. He knows that it's not likely to hold any real weight and thus will likely turn out no different than if he simply said he was saving her because he wanted to save her, but it gives Japan a thread to grab onto. They do want Zolzal to attack, but not on his terms as retaliation against an act against his empire in breach of their treaties. They know he'll either attack them or break their treaty on his own, but in this sort of situation the first to break the agreement tends to have the upper hand.

Just because they can start the war whenever they want doesn't mean that it's a good idea. They know it's coming, but they're being careful to make sure it starts on their terms as an act of unjustified aggression on the Empire's part. Yes, Zolzal has no problem attacking on a mere whim. Japan knows this and thus knows the war's coming, but again, if they simply harbor a criminal, he will have validation and a reason to go to war. Saying that he would have attacked them anyway will not hold any water either, they'll still be seen as the ones that started the war with their clear breach of treaty and interference with internal affairs. They WANT to wait for him to break the treaty himself. I'll repeat: saying he would break the treaty and go to war just because he can will do nothing to diminish the damage Japan will face for starting the fight themselves. And Sugawara knows what he's doing won't hold water, but needed some excuse and declaring her to have a prior contractual connection to the Japanese embassy is the best he had.

You have to understand that the doves are a small FACTION in a regime, and the treaty and alliance is with the EMPIRE itself. If they harbor people labeled traitors to the crown simply because said traitors want their nation to surrender rather than fight, they will be seen as interfering with a purely internal matter and encouraging insurrection. Harboring and aiding a rebel who is attempting to undermine the state's authority can easily be read as an open act of aggression against the empire and in betrayal to all the peace talks. In order to gain the peace they and the doves want, they have to respect the empire's choice to label said doves as traitors until the empire makes a move to warrant retaliation. Executing an imperial citizen for suspicion of colluding with an invading force hardly warrants retaliation, so they can't take any action that can be perceived as aggression, such as taking in such suspected criminals.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

How is the marriage unnecessary? Yes they want him to attack them, but if he attacks them for harboring a criminal, things will be complicated for them. They don't want to give him any excuse to come after them, because that would make things far more complicated and troublesome for the Japanese government. They ultimately want a peaceful agreement, not conquest. Talking peace when the war started because they interfered with internal matters like the capture of a criminal guilty of high treason would be very difficult, hardly less difficult than if they just launched an unprovoked attack, and there would be more lives lost, not to mention their reputation would suffer on both sides of the Gate because some would say that they instigated the war. This is why he was even supposed to throw Sherry to the wolves. At the last moment he decided that he couldn't let her be captured, so he grabbed at the only excuse he could think of. He knows that it's not likely to hold any real weight and thus will likely turn out no different than if he simply said he was saving her because he wanted to save her, but it gives Japan a thread to grab onto. They do want Zolzal to attack, but not on his terms as retaliation against an act against his empire in breach of their treaties. They know he'll either attack them or break their treaty on his own, but in this sort of situation the first to break the agreement tends to have the upper hand.

Just because they can start the war whenever they want doesn't mean that it's a good idea. They know it's coming, but they're being careful to make sure it starts on their terms as an act of unjustified aggression on the Empire's part. Yes, Zolzal has no problem attacking on a mere whim. Japan knows this and thus knows the war's coming, but again, if they simply harbor a criminal, he will have validation and a reason to go to war. Saying that he would have attacked them anyway will not hold any water either, they'll still be seen as the ones that started the war with their clear breach of treaty and interference with internal affairs. They WANT to wait for him to break the treaty himself. I'll repeat: saying he would break the treaty and go to war just because he can will do nothing to diminish the damage Japan will face for starting the fight themselves. And Sugawara knows what he's doing won't hold water, but needed some excuse and declaring her to have a prior contractual connection to the Japanese embassy is the best he had.

You have to understand that the doves are a small FACTION in a regime, and the treaty and alliance is with the EMPIRE itself. If they harbor people labeled traitors to the crown simply because said traitors want their nation to surrender rather than fight, they will be seen as interfering with a purely internal matter and encouraging insurrection. Harboring and aiding a rebel who is attempting to undermine the state's authority can easily be read as an open act of aggression against the empire and in betrayal to all the peace talks. In order to gain the peace they and the doves want, they have to respect the empire's choice to label said doves as traitors until the empire makes a move to warrant retaliation. Executing an imperial citizen for suspicion of colluding with an invading force hardly warrants retaliation, so they can't take any action that can be perceived as aggression, such as taking in such suspected criminals.

The war started because the Empire invaded Japan. It was never officially ended.

As for Zorzal, he's a war criminal. Japan would be within its rights to demand he be handed over for prosecution as part of the reparations the Empire must pay.

We seem to agree on it being in Japan's interest that Zorzal attack, but when you say it must look right... In whose eyes? Who is going to judge Zorzal's actions, and how?

If it's our world - the Empire doesn't have a seat in the UN. It doesn't have contacts in the mass media. Unlike Japan. And even if it did, "Japan didn't let me kill a 12 years old girl" is going to be a hard sell.

If it's theirs - you forget what kind of place the Empire is. "Because fuck you, that's why" is all the reason they need. The Empire rules because they're the strongest. But what if it stops being the strongest? Sure, the doves are just a faction. But if Japan arranged for all opponents to be hanged and fed to the crows so the doves could rule, the worst that would happen would be a that the citizens of the empire would say "say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss".

Oh, sure, maybe, maybe it'd be worthwhile to dress it up a bit better. But the empire is a place where being weak and hesitant is worse than being morally wrong. (Some would argue that the real world is like that, too, when it comes to international politics, but let's not go there.)

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The war started because the Empire invaded Japan. It was never officially ended.

As for Zorzal, he's a war criminal. Japan would be within its rights to demand he be handed over for prosecution as part of the reparations the Empire must pay.

We seem to agree on it being in Japan's interest that Zorzal attack, but when you say it must look right... In whose eyes? Who is going to judge Zorzal's actions, and how?

If it's our world - the Empire doesn't have a seat in the UN. It doesn't have contacts in the mass media. Unlike Japan. And even if it did, "Japan didn't let me kill a 12 years old girl" is going to be a hard sell.

If it's theirs - you forget what kind of place the Empire is. "Because fuck you, that's why" is all the reason they need. The Empire rules because they're the strongest. But what if it stops being the strongest? Sure, the doves are just a faction. But if Japan arranged for all opponents to be hanged and fed to the crows so the doves could rule, the worst that would happen would be a that the citizens of the empire would say "say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss".

Oh, sure, maybe, maybe it'd be worthwhile to dress it up a bit better. But the empire is a place where being weak and hesitant is worse than being morally wrong. (Some would argue that the real world is like that, too, when it comes to international politics, but let's not go there.)

The place may be dog-eat-dog, but that doesn't mean that the people are completely numb. Japan wants the people to like them, because that does make it easier. Insurrections and other problems occur if the public opinion is poor, even if the public's used to being under a cruel government. They don't want the people to be reluctant to help them, or to eagerly stab them in the back and leak information or steal equipment. While some would do so either way, and some would turn ally with one look at their firepower, they want to keep the overall favor as high as possible and treating the apprehension of suspected traitors is likely to polarize things, encouraging people to take sides and solidify their standing; if someone's on the fence there's a good chance they can turn him, but if he's decided to side with Zolzal, then it'll be much harder to persuade him to help.

And while Zolzal doesn't have any "connections", or a place on the UN, that doesn't change the fact that information will get out, and Japan will look really bad for harboring a criminal guilty of treason. Japan's in a position where offensive actions have to be taken very carefully on account of treaties on our side. If actions are taken against them, such as the kidnapping of one of their citizens or an attack on their land, they can retaliate without any problems. But if they attack a nation without proper justification, this affects their standing on this side significantly. And an empire having cruel laws or the possibility of a youth being executed for suspicion of colluding with an invading force is not likely to fly as sufficient justification. Since the Special Region is recognized on some levels as part of Japanese territory, they have more combative freedom than normal. But if they're seen to have disregarded the sovereignty of the existing nation, there are some nations on our side who will take things very poorly.

It's true the war isn't officially over, but it's in a cease fire with the beginnings of a peace treaty in the works. This again makes things look bad if Japan is the one that renews hostilities. America has some wars that were never concluded despite years of peace, but if we were to suddenly renew hostilities there would likely be an uproar.

Japan simply isn't the sort of nation that opens (or renews) hostilities so easily. They don't want to be the ones to instigate the fighting in anyone's eyes, both because doing so will likely lead to a greater number of deaths and because it will damage their reputation on both sides of the Gate. The last thing they want to do is simply declare the empire to be evil and launch an attack, especially since they know plenty well that it will be no time before Zolzal slips up and does something that can be seen as a clear act of unprovoked aggression.

Whether you like it or not, the Empire has every right to declare anyone a suspected traitor and arrest them for supposed collusion with Japan, so yes, Zolzal could say "they wouldn't let me arrest and execute a twelve-year-old girl who we had reason to believe was aiding the Japanese". Even a twelve-year-old girl can deliberately share secrets with the enemy or hide their secrets, thus helping the enemy to gain an advantage against them and potentially threatening the lives of thousands of Imperial citizens. And if she does this, this amounts to high treason and many nations even today would have severe punishments in store. High treason is in many countries the absolute gravest crime possible, and so mere suspicion is cause for very severe treatment.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the claim of betrothal would actually hold water, but it was the best and only chance he had to declare a right to grant Sherry asylum. If he simply said "she's twelve" or something, this really would not hold water. As I said, even a twelve-year-old girl can commit high treason, and a government has to be able to handle traitors regardless of age in order to survive, so the government does have every right to have Sherry arrested and punished according to local law. And as a full imperial citizen, the Japanese government would have absolutely no right to interfere with the empire's jurisdiction over her. By declaring them to be betrothed, which in many countries is significant and effectively contractual, Sugawara devised a "reason" that I agree clearly doesn't hold water, but gave them the only possible distinction between Sherry and the rest of the Doves. This allows them to at least make some argument, however spurious, that the Japanese government held a contractual connection and/or obligation to her that went beyond that for the rest of the peace faction. Without this declaration, there would have been absolutely no way to save Sherry, so it was certainly necessary and helpful.

[Brother Coa]

The logic is simple:

Empire attacked Japan and Japan pushed them back + secured the Gate so that Empire cannot threaten them anymore. Japan is now looking for peace, because peace can bring them more good than war.

Empire is pushed back and prepares for war in secret, Emperor Molt was always for that even if anti-war faction arises within the Empire. Now that he is taken out of the way and Zorzal made de-facto Emperor they will attack Japan again on premise that either they defeat them or they get destroyed - because that's how ancient empires work.

As for UN - giving the nature of Empire I am sure that our world would step on Japan's side.

In addition to that Special Region was so lucky to have Japanese invading them who are now pacifist nation despite their violent history. I can guarantee you that the likes of USA, Russia, China, Israel, Britain and other nations would not bother that much and would just overrun the Empire and put puppet 'democratic' government in charge of it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

The place may be dog-eat-dog, but that doesn't mean that the people are completely numb. Japan wants the people to like them, because that does make it easier. Insurrections and other problems occur if the public opinion is poor, even if the public's used to being under a cruel government. They don't want the people to be reluctant to help them, or to eagerly stab them in the back and leak information or steal equipment. While some would do so either way, and some would turn ally with one look at their firepower, they want to keep the overall favor as high as possible and treating the apprehension of suspected traitors is likely to polarize things, encouraging people to take sides and solidify their standing; if someone's on the fence there's a good chance they can turn him, but if he's decided to side with Zolzal, then it'll be much harder to persuade him to help.

If he knows that helping Japan will just result in him being left hanging out to dry when Zorzal comes, it'll be even harder.

Think about the decision process of Imperial subjects. There's an emotional component - out of pride, some of them would rather cut off their own balls than deal with Japan fairly. Those guys are pretty much lost to the cause no matter what Japan does or does not do. But they're far from the majority. Most subjects would follow Japan for the same reason they followed the Empire.

And there's the rational component. To address that, Japan must show that to ally with them is to be made richer, more powerful, not set on fire. And they'd been doing so well... until Zorzal called their bluff and showed that, while they speak softly and carry a big stick, they're not willing to use it.

And while Zolzal doesn't have any "connections", or a place on the UN, that doesn't change the fact that information will get out, and Japan will look really bad for harboring a criminal guilty of treason.

Japan is better equipped to massage the information. Give it context and spin and whatever you want to call it. To show that what they're actually doing is offering asylum to the innocent victims of a mad tyrant. I don't know about Japan, but in France, you'd definitely get into more political trouble for not doing it. I like to think it'd be the same in most modern democracies. Oh, sure, when it's thousands of anonymous foreigners, they're only here to parasite our welfare programs and/or steal our jobs and/or be terrorists. But a single, well spoken young lady who can show up on TV and cry about how she was orphaned and her home set on fire for no reason other than the paranoia of a mad prince? Whole other kettle of fish.

Japan's in a position where offensive actions have to be taken very carefully on account of treaties on our side. If actions are taken against them, such as the kidnapping of one of their citizens or an attack on their land, they can retaliate without any problems. But if they attack a nation without proper justification, this affects their standing on this side significantly.

And whose version of events is going to come out? It shouldn't be that of the guys who don't have phones or cameras.

And an empire having cruel laws or the possibility of a youth being executed for suspicion of colluding with an invading force is not likely to fly as sufficient justification. Since the Special Region is recognized on some levels as part of Japanese territory, they have more combative freedom than normal. But if they're seen to have disregarded the sovereignty of the existing nation, there are some nations on our side who will take things very poorly.

There are nations who take Japan's sovereignty on its own capital rather poorly already. Again, it's just a matter of appeasing enough of them (which they were going to have to do anyway, independently of how they handled the Empire) and living with the relative enmity of the others (which they also were going to have to do).

It's true the war isn't officially over, but it's in a cease fire with the beginnings of a peace treaty in the works. This again makes things look bad if Japan is the one that renews hostilities. America has some wars that were never concluded despite years of peace, but if we were to suddenly renew hostilities there would likely be an uproar.

Japan simply isn't the sort of nation that opens (or renews) hostilities so easily. They don't want to be the ones to instigate the fighting in anyone's eyes, both because doing so will likely lead to a greater number of deaths and because it will damage their reputation on both sides of the Gate. The last thing they want to do is simply declare the empire to be evil and launch an attack, especially since they know plenty well that it will be no time before Zolzal slips up and does something that can be seen as a clear act of unprovoked aggression.

All Japan has to do is claim Zorzal isn't seriously trying for peace (which he isn't), that as a war criminal (which he is) he isn't a possible interlocutor, and / or provoke Zorzal into something rash (which can't be that difficult) with something that our side of the world would look upon as indisputably the right thing (like granting asylum to a 12 years old girl, for example).

Whether you like it or not, the Empire has every right to declare anyone a suspected traitor and arrest them for supposed collusion with Japan, so yes, Zolzal could say "they wouldn't let me arrest and execute a twelve-year-old girl who we had reason to believe was aiding the Japanese". Even a twelve-year-old girl can deliberately share secrets with the enemy or hide their secrets, thus helping the enemy to gain an advantage against them and potentially threatening the lives of thousands of Imperial citizens. And if she does this, this amounts to high treason and many nations even today would have severe punishments in store. High treason is in many countries the absolute gravest crime possible, and so mere suspicion is cause for very severe treatment.

He can say it, he can even believe it, but nobody on our side is going to care. Or rather, it'll make it seem all the more justified for his country to be carpet bombed with freedom. Not that it'd even have to come to that.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the claim of betrothal would actually hold water, but it was the best and only chance he had to declare a right to grant Sherry asylum. If he simply said "she's twelve" or something, this really would not hold water. As I said, even a twelve-year-old girl can commit high treason, and a government has to be able to handle traitors regardless of age in order to survive, so the government does have every right to have Sherry arrested and punished according to local law. And as a full imperial citizen, the Japanese government would have absolutely no right to interfere with the empire's jurisdiction over her. By declaring them to be betrothed, which in many countries is significant and effectively contractual, Sugawara devised a "reason" that I agree clearly doesn't hold water, but gave them the only possible distinction between Sherry and the rest of the Doves. This allows them to at least make some argument, however spurious, that the Japanese government held a contractual connection and/or obligation to her that went beyond that for the rest of the peace faction. Without this declaration, there would have been absolutely no way to save Sherry, so it was certainly necessary and helpful.

That's why they should have taken in all the Doves. Only they should have called them the Empire's government in exile. Makes it more official. Legitimate.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If he knows that helping Japan will just result in him being left hanging out to dry when Zorzal comes, it'll be even harder.

Think about the decision process of Imperial subjects. There's an emotional component - out of pride, some of them would rather cut off their own balls than deal with Japan fairly. Those guys are pretty much lost to the cause no matter what Japan does or does not do. But they're far from the majority. Most subjects would follow Japan for the same reason they followed the Empire.

And there's the rational component. To address that, Japan must show that to ally with them is to be made richer, more powerful, not set on fire. And they'd been doing so well... until Zorzal called their bluff and showed that, while they speak softly and carry a big stick, they're not willing to use it.

They also have to consider the government that will come into place in Zolzal's stead. If they go harboring people for betraying the government and helping them, that looks bad to the next government. There will be at least a few people who see this as a self-serving act of aiding traitors who stabbed Zolzal in the back for their own benefit, and you can be sure some will ask what's to stop Japan from again aiding criminals if the criminals' actions benefit them.

Japan is better equipped to massage the information. Give it context and spin and whatever you want to call it. To show that what they're actually doing is offering asylum to the innocent victims of a mad tyrant. I don't know about Japan, but in France, you'd definitely get into more political trouble for not doing it. I like to think it'd be the same in most modern democracies. Oh, sure, when it's thousands of anonymous foreigners, they're only here to parasite our welfare programs and/or steal our jobs and/or be terrorists. But a single, well spoken young lady who can show up on TV and cry about how she was orphaned and her home set on fire for no reason other than the paranoia of a mad prince? Whole other kettle of fish.

Massaging the facts won't change them. And it's already been established that there are SPIES and LEAKS, meaning that the truth will out! It'd be bad enough to be caught aiding a wanted criminal and then fighting a bloody war that started because they interfered with internal affairs that they had no jurisdiction over, but if people find out that they lied to make themselves look better, it'll really hit the fan.

And whose version of events is going to come out? It shouldn't be that of the guys who don't have phones or cameras.

Again, there are people who are digging around looking for signs of dishonesty and spies leaking information; they may be able to keep the truth under wraps, but it's not a risk they want to take.

There are nations who take Japan's sovereignty on its own capital rather poorly already. Again, it's just a matter of appeasing enough of them (which they were going to have to do anyway, independently of how they handled the Empire) and living with the relative enmity of the others (which they also were going to have to do).

Whether with the people of the Special Region or the other nations worldwide, they don't know for sure how this will effect those that are on the fence. It could sway more people to their side and provide them with an advantage, but again since they're aiding a traitor who helped them it could in turn sway too many the other way, both now and once Zolzal's reign is ended and another ruler takes his place. The action would have a polarizing effect, meaning fewer people that can be swayed, and they want to make sure that the final polarizing event is a negative action on his side, not theirs. We might see it as rescuing a little girl, but to many influential imperial citizens who haven't decided and whose decisions could have a significant impact, it could still be viewed as them saving a traitor that helped them gain the upper hand against the empire that made and kept them rich.

All Japan has to do is claim Zorzal isn't seriously trying for peace (which he isn't), that as a war criminal (which he is) he isn't a possible interlocutor, and / or provoke Zorzal into something rash (which can't be that difficult) with something that our side of the world would look upon as indisputably the right thing (like granting asylum to a 12 years old girl, for example).

Again you're assuming that everyone in the world will just immediately say "it's just a twelve-year-old girl", but many governments will acknowledge that even a twelve-year-old girl in the right place at the right time can get information that would really hurt them, or at least give the enemy connections to sources of more information. High treason is in most places viewed as the absolute worst crime and is punished severely, regardless whether you're an ugly 80-year-old mass-murderer or an adorable 12-year-old girl. And like it or not, there are a few governments near Japan with sizable and influential factions that HATE them, and would love any excuse they could find.

He can say it, he can even believe it, but nobody on our side is going to care. Or rather, it'll make it seem all the more justified for his country to be carpet bombed with freedom. Not that it'd even have to come to that.

I am fairly certain you are quite wrong there. Again, high treason is taken quite seriously, and it doesn't matter if she's a twelve-year-old cutie, interfering with the apprehension and sentencing of a traitor would look very bad. Yes, there would be people who say "aww, she's so cute!" and praise Japan, but there would also be plenty of people who look beyond that and see a nation that benefited from this cute little girl's actions without trying to stop her from helping them, and then grabbed her to prevent a useful tool from being eliminated. Her cuteness could actually work against them because people may think they're using her.

That's why they should have taken in all the Doves. Only they should have called them the Empire's government in exile. Makes it more official. Legitimate.

Yeah, I'm sure plenty of people be fooled by that. It most certainly wouldn't blow up in their faces once the spies find out why they're in exile.
No, in no time it would become clear that this nation was talking peace while offering protection to anyone who would betray the empire to give them a further political and/or military advantage. You could call them "people in exile", but it wouldn't fly. Or at least, like the other things you suggested they do, it MIGHT NOT fly. And Japan knows that lots of other nations are beside themselves with a desire to find some way to get their hands on that Gate, even if it means war with Japan. They are very cautious, not because it's the right thing to do, but because the wrong action could make them a ton of enemies. That's a bigger reason they're trying to wait for Zolzal to make the first move. They'll do anything that is completely legal and safe to provoke him, but they don't want to "start" the renewed hostilities even if they can claim he's connected to crimes that are not crimes in his own nation. So they read the situation and realized that the guy's almost certainly already started taking actions against them, and it'll only be a matter of time before he says or does something that will validate their attacking him. But they don't want to attack until they feel quite secure that news leaked won't make them look worse and provide potential enemies with an excuse to start making their own moves a little more openly and forcefully.

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

The logic is simple:

Empire attacked Japan and Japan pushed them back + secured the Gate so that Empire cannot threaten them anymore. Japan is now looking for peace, because peace can bring them more good than war.

Empire is pushed back and prepares for war in secret, Emperor Molt was always for that even if anti-war faction arises within the Empire. Now that he is taken out of the way and Zorzal made de-facto Emperor they will attack Japan again on premise that either they defeat them or they get destroyed - because that's how ancient empires work.

As for UN - giving the nature of Empire I am sure that our world would step on Japan's side.

In addition to that Special Region was so lucky to have Japanese invading them who are now pacifist nation despite their violent history. I can guarantee you that the likes of USA, Russia, China, Israel, Britain and other nations would not bother that much and would just overrun the Empire and put puppet 'democratic' government in charge of it.

Yeah no...the rest of the World is not going to be fans of Japan in Absolute Control of a whole World's worth of resources with access to Magic.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Yeah, I'm sure plenty of people be fooled by that. It most certainly wouldn't blow up in their faces once the spies find out why they're in exile.
No, in no time it would become clear that this nation was talking peace while offering protection to anyone who would betray the empire to give them a further political and/or military advantage. You could call them "people in exile", but it wouldn't fly. Or at least, like the other things you suggested they do, it MIGHT NOT fly. And Japan knows that lots of other nations are beside themselves with a desire to find some way to get their hands on that Gate, even if it means war with Japan. They are very cautious, not because it's the right thing to do, but because the wrong action could make them a ton of enemies. That's a bigger reason they're trying to wait for Zolzal to make the first move. They'll do anything that is completely legal and safe to provoke him, but they don't want to "start" the renewed hostilities even if they can claim he's connected to crimes that are not crimes in his own nation. So they read the situation and realized that the guy's almost certainly already started taking actions against them, and it'll only be a matter of time before he says or does something that will validate their attacking him. But they don't want to attack until they feel quite secure that news leaked won't make them look worse and provide potential enemies with an excuse to start making their own moves a little more openly and forcefully.

I'm being facetious, but my point is, there are precedents for that sort of things. It's all in how you present them, and since Japan gets to do almost all the presenting, I don't foresee a lot of problems.

Will their enemies bitch? Of course they will. Will it have any detrimental consequences? Not really. Their enemies will bitch anyway.

You know, what I least understand about your position is how you think Zorzal's claims are The Truth, that will out, instead of just his own self-serving point of view. Even he knows he's just purging his political opponents. If Japan decides to have none of that, will there be voices deciding it was all unjust? Of course, but by that time, the fait will be accompli, and everyone will have to live with that.

And our countries may take treason seriously, but that's really only when we are the ones betrayed. We're not going to care about what some tin pot dictator calls treason. Hell, there have been cases where countries haven't cared what some major power called treason.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Yeah no...the rest of the World is not going to be fans of Japan in Absolute Control of a whole World's worth of resources with access to Magic.

This is UN, you an make a deal with them.

'Support us in our cause and we will offer the UN 40% of all natural resources of that world, no taxation of said resources included.'

It was established that Japan would have no option but to allow UN mission to go trough. But UN itself and world powers cannot act harshly as Gate opened just in Japan's territory and Japan itself declared other side of the Gate special region of their own country.

But it is true that special region has no designed borders and ownership of the territory can change if needed. Japanese are not selfish people and I think that even them would not want to control entire planet by themselves.

[knaka148]

Actually, in regards to the single situation of Casel and Sherry, there was a theoretical better option. I actually read something a contributor of another site posted that I feel like I should modify a bit.

What Sugawara should have done in that situation was meet Casel and Sherry, tell them that he couldn't offer them refuge from the empire because of orders from his home country, then formally tell them that they had 5 minutes (actually any amount of time would work here) to leave Japan's embassy and if they stayed, they would be considered trespassing. On the side, he might instruct Sherry and Casel that if they wanted to get out of the capital to stay there. Once the time limit was up, Sugawara could have them arrested for trespassing on the Japanese embassy grounds, which is under Japan's jurisdiction, and detained them.

Going further, he may have even been able to have them sent to Alnus for a trial in a military court, possibly arranging or recommending they be sentenced to something like a week's worth of 'community service' at the base, after which they would be released outside the Alnus base. Both Sherry and Casel would end up outside of Alnus, and as the empire technically doesn't have a treaty with Japan yet, they wouldn't be able to legitimately demand their return. This would have saved both of them, and while it wouldn't be a strong case for them, its arguably better than the marriage stuff that Sugawara came up with.

Of course, it wouldn't have nearly as much action as what we got, but you can't have everything.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm being facetious, but my point is, there are precedents for that sort of things. It's all in how you present them, and since Japan gets to do almost all the presenting, I don't foresee a lot of problems.

Will their enemies bitch? Of course they will. Will it have any detrimental consequences? Not really. Their enemies will bitch anyway.

You know, what I least understand about your position is how you think Zorzal's claims are The Truth, that will out, instead of just his own self-serving point of view. Even he knows he's just purging his political opponents. If Japan decides to have none of that, will there be voices deciding it was all unjust? Of course, but by that time, the fait will be accompli, and everyone will have to live with that.

And our countries may take treason seriously, but that's really only when we are the ones betrayed. We're not going to care about what some tin pot dictator calls treason. Hell, there have been cases where countries haven't cared what some major power called treason.

The truth is that he's in power right now and their actions would therefore be the harboring of criminals guilty of high treason, and in the process encouraging insurrection against the reigning administration. This is easy to spin the wrong way and when the information leaks someone WILL spin it that way, not to mention that relations with the next administration will be somewhat strained if they have to wonder just how far they have to slip before Japan starts helping people screw them over too. And while countries aren't too concerned with the existence of traitors in other countries, that doesn't change the fact that helping a foreign traitor, and encouraging said traitor to run to you, is looked upon as a very hostile act. A nation would be quite justified in viewing a nation trying to incite treason and insurrection as hostile.