GATE - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

The truth is that he's in power right now and their actions would therefore be the harboring of criminals guilty of high treason,

Subtle difference: the truth is that he's in power now and their actions would be the harboring of his political opponents. And like I said, there are precedents for that sort of things.

and in the process encouraging insurrection against the reigning administration. This is easy to spin the wrong way and when the information leaks someone WILL spin it that way,

Some, sure, but Japan's in a way better position to make sure their version is the first, last, and most of in-between most people will get to hear.

not to mention that relations with the next administration will be somewhat strained if they have to wonder just how far they have to slip before Japan starts helping people screw them over too.

Welcome to life as a small country under the aegis of a much more powerful one. That was going to be so anyway, and note that Zorzal went relatively far in opposing Japan (as opposed to merely looking after his own interests). It's not like Japan would be capricious in removing him.

Also note it's a kind of relationship the Empire's quite familiar with, though usually from the other side.

And while countries aren't too concerned with the existence of traitors in other countries, that doesn't change the fact that helping a foreign traitor, and encouraging said traitor to run to you, is looked upon as a very hostile act. A nation would be quite justified in viewing a nation trying to incite treason and insurrection as hostile.

So Japan is hostile to the Empire. Or at least to Zorzal's regime. How is that a problem? How is that a change? Japan extended an olive branch. The Empire didn't seize it. It's on them.

Originally Posted by knaka148

Actually, in regards to the single situation of Casel and Sherry, there was a theoretical better option. I actually read something a contributor of another site posted that I feel like I should modify a bit.

What Sugawara should have done in that situation was meet Casel and Sherry, tell them that he couldn't offer them refuge from the empire because of orders from his home country, then formally tell them that they had 5 minutes (actually any amount of time would work here) to leave Japan's embassy and if they stayed, they would be considered trespassing. On the side, he might instruct Sherry and Casel that if they wanted to get out of the capital to stay there. Once the time limit was up, Sugawara could have them arrested for trespassing on the Japanese embassy grounds, which is under Japan's jurisdiction, and detained them.

Going further, he may have even been able to have them sent to Alnus for a trial in a military court, possibly arranging or recommending they be sentenced to something like a week's worth of 'community service' at the base, after which they would be released outside the Alnus base. Both Sherry and Casel would end up outside of Alnus, and as the empire technically doesn't have a treaty with Japan yet, they wouldn't be able to legitimately demand their return. This would have saved both of them, and while it wouldn't be a strong case for them, its arguably better than the marriage stuff that Sugawara came up with.

Of course, it wouldn't have nearly as much action as what we got, but you can't have everything.

The sticking point was getting them on embassy ground in the first place, not keeping them there. That's what they were instructed not to do.

Once there, they could just petition for asylum, probably.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So Japan is hostile to the Empire. Or at least to Zorzal's regime. How is that a problem? How is that a change? Japan extended an olive branch. The Empire didn't seize it. It's on them.

The problem is that right now they're in a state of "peace". A cease-fire is close enough to peace that people take note of who reopened hostilities. Japan doesn't want to be the one to do this, either by actively attacking or by offering support to people who have been labeled criminals guilty of high treason. Both would be viewed as hostile action taken against the empire, and Japan doesn't want the empire or the people on the other side of the gate to get that impression, because this would complicate relationships on both sides in ways they don't want. True, letting one or two people in wouldn't be such a bad thing, except that if they agreed to offer protection to one individual this would set precedent and make it harder for them to reject the rest of their supporters; they could easily fall into the position of either being seen as cruel and favoritist for only protecting certain people, or protecting everyone who's been labeled a traitor, an action that most certainly would be perceived as a form of attack. So rather than open their door and risk putting themselves in an awkward position they decided to shut their doors. They weren't even supposed to open them to Sherry, but the betrothal gave him enough connection to at least convince a couple imperial soldiers to permit her passage, something they hadn't permitted before. Pretty much, Sugawara was bound by a strict policy that may have been overly cautious but had precedent in its own way, and he used that betrothal as an excuse because he needed some sort of excuse to grab her and knew that age and gender wouldn't be enough to pacify his superiors or the enemy.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

The problem is that right now they're in a state of "peace". A cease-fire is close enough to peace that people take note of who reopened hostilities.

Japan has a set of non negotiable demands for there to be actual peace. Non negotiable because their own people would scream bloody murder at their government if they aren't met. And purging the doves is a strong signal those Zorzal spits on those demands, which should be quite enough reason to, if not reopen hostilities, do a number of things that in turn spit on Zorzal. A provocation calls another.

Japan doesn't want to be the one to do this, either by actively attacking or by offering support to people who have been labeled criminals guilty of high treason.

Labeled by the enemy. Labeled by a war criminal.

Both would be viewed as hostile action taken against the empire, and Japan doesn't want the empire or the people on the other side of the gate to get that impression, because this would complicate relationships on both sides in ways they don't want.

The commoners don't care about things at that level. And the nobles would know the difference between opposing one faction in the empire and opposing the empire as a whole.

True, letting one or two people in wouldn't be such a bad thing, except that if they agreed to offer protection to one individual this would set precedent and make it harder for them to reject the rest of their supporters; they could easily fall into the position of either being seen as cruel and favoritist for only protecting certain people, or protecting everyone who's been labeled a traitor, an action that most certainly would be perceived as a form of attack.

Which is why I would argue they should take in everyone.

So rather than open their door and risk putting themselves in an awkward position they decided to shut their doors. They weren't even supposed to open them to Sherry, but the betrothal gave him enough connection to at least convince a couple imperial soldiers to permit her passage, something they hadn't permitted before.

They permitted passage because Sugawara invited her in. They're soldiers, not Japanese lawyers. They don't know (or care) what's the detail of Sugawara's orders. They just know he's one of the embassy's people, with authority to invite people in. The betrothal thing makes a fine story, but it changes nothing.

Pretty much, Sugawara was bound by a strict policy that may have been overly cautious but had precedent in its own way, and he used that betrothal as an excuse because he needed some sort of excuse to grab her and knew that age and gender wouldn't be enough to pacify his superiors or the enemy.

The enemies don't care, and his superiors shouldn't.

[rladls2121]

Zorzal's opposition factions are suffering, and Zorzal is basically making some of his people hostage.
Making the Empire more isolated from the world more than ever.

Tyuule, there's no trace of any kindness left in her anymore I guess.
Revenge does make these kinds of people.

So what hope there are left?

[~Yami~]

I think Casel just got thrown in prison so they could save them anytime

Sherry... what a little girl with big waifu potential and personality
This is usually the time when you put "better love story than twilight" meme but I'm not even in mood to make fun of this episode
That is definitely very emotional.. She just lost her parents and need to run away

Finally we found a flaw in Japanese decision.. I also agreed that Japanese should not think in passive way even though the congress might fume toward the government again if they responded to Zorzal's aggression..
They are faraway superior... enemies know that... and it is obvious that they are going to throw every single shady approaches and avoid head-on battle... but Japanese welcomed them! I hope they are really prepared for any kind of crazy movement from Zorzal

I holds my anger when Sherry wanted to be taken and Sugawara just "close" his eyes.. There is no way she could be treated well since she has lost everything
but I cheered when Sugawara proposed to her... sixteen means 4 years of waiting, which is not too long
Sherry just rapidly become one of my favorite after the Itami's team

well-played... great episode

[eisai_haramasukoi]

People in other sites hated this episode. Called it pedo-baiting.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Chaser

People in other sites hated this episode. Called it pedo-baiting.

Well of course, they are likely the same people who complained that the JSDF hadn't raped anybody like they allegedly should be. Most people are stupid, you should be used to that already.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Japan has a set of non negotiable demands for there to be actual peace. Non negotiable because their own people would scream bloody murder at their government if they aren't met. And purging the doves is a strong signal those Zorzal spits on those demands, which should be quite enough reason to, if not reopen hostilities, do a number of things that in turn spit on Zorzal. A provocation calls another.


Labeled by the enemy. Labeled by a war criminal.


The commoners don't care about things at that level. And the nobles would know the difference between opposing one faction in the empire and opposing the empire as a whole.


Which is why I would argue they should take in everyone.


They permitted passage because Sugawara invited her in. They're soldiers, not Japanese lawyers. They don't know (or care) what's the detail of Sugawara's orders. They just know he's one of the embassy's people, with authority to invite people in. The betrothal thing makes a fine story, but it changes nothing.


The enemies don't care, and his superiors shouldn't.

I'm fairly certain that the Japanese government knows what they're doing and the author thought things out more thoroughly than either of us, so I'm going to stop debating it. The government decided it, and Sugawara was in no position to oppose his superiors' decision to wait for the right moment. His actions concerning Sherry were necessary at the moment because he was in a hurry, and he knew that his superiors would not have anyone admitted in a way that would open the doors to everyone who tried to oppose Zolzal, so he had to think in a matter of seconds of an excuse, and it really makes sense that this would be what he comes up with. He needed to avoid taking in countless doves or their kids, so he chose an argument that no one else could use, as Sherry's the only one (at least to our knowledge) to have declared betrothal to a Japanese official. It was the simplest and most obvious solution to a sticky problem, so in his position it was the first action he could think of to satisfy the requirements.

And going back to the initial argument of it being creepy, I fear I will simply have to agree to disagree with you on that point. I don't see anything creepy in a man agreeing to accept a girl's feelings with a requirement that she wait until she's old enough. If she approached him when she was old enough to marry, it generally wouldn't come across as creepy, especially with someone who's so mentally mature. He merely agreed to an unwritten agreement to accept her intent once she's old enough to pursue said intent. An unofficial engagement is not terribly difficult to break off if the girl changes her mind, so he's really just telling her that he'll accept if she still feels this way when she grows up.

[Harbinger]

The dude hasn't fallen in love with her (yet...)

I saw it as a "loving" father doing whatever it takes to save his daughter. The marriage thing was just an excuse.

I'm not saying it won't happen... it was just the only way to save her.

[Benigmatica]

One thing I can say on this episode is that Kouji Sugawara rescued Sherry Tyueri from those Cleaners!

Good job for Sugawara-san even though it might scorn him diplomatically.

[Yan3242]

Its amazing time we lived where people prefer sherry to be taken away then end up with sugawara (no joke, forums where i visited prefer it that way).

Dont know if those people are dumb or didnt even think the "what happen" part if she get taken away, they think they will put her in a child daycare with regular meal and rehab huh? well guess again

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'm fairly certain that the Japanese government knows what they're doing and the author thought things out more thoroughly than either of us, so I'm going to stop debating it.

Then I'm just going to point out that if authors went for the practical approach every time, there generally wouldn't be a story.

[Yan3242]

All of this talk about pedo baiting stuff will never happen if sherry is "500 years old demon" plot

[rladls2121]

I think it is rather refreshing to see Sugawara to see him to decide to save Sherry instead of being taken away as an "opposition" to Zorzal.

But realistically, it is really not that simple it seems.

And talking about pedo here is really ruins the serious mood, I don't know whether to agree or not about Sugawara's thoughts about the scene though.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Then I'm just going to point out that if authors went for the practical approach every time, there generally wouldn't be a story.

Yes, but at the same time authors have to do a lot of research when they write, in order to maintain believability and make the most of the material they work with. And thus, I'd say that the author probably thought about everything that's been debated in here and decided that what he was writing was sufficiently plausible.

And I certainly could see a nation like Japan getting nearly obsessed with the idea of obtaining peace or maintaining a never-strike-first policy, and carry it further than they should. Just look at modern media, there have been cases where a person or group acted in the most practical and appropriate way possible and wound up crucified by the media; you'd be a fool not to have some concern, so their being too concerned isn't entirely unbelievable. Just look at what happened with the fire dragon's first attack. Itami was able to respond well, but frankly the government itself wasn't doing so well at quelling the media; they only made it out of that because of Rory calling the woman out and then Itami quickly changing the subject. They don't have as much control over what's shown and how it's seen as you may think. Japan's choice might not be practical, but it could work and weirder things have happened.

[aohige]

Anh, keep in mind, the reason why the Japanese government said to not accept asylum is because of all the people already captive. Validating that the doves have ties with Japan would give Zorzal reason to immediately execute all the arrested, and this was not the time to invoke such action.

Of course, now Japan will be forced to act quick to deal with this situation.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Yes, but at the same time authors have to do a lot of research when they write, in order to maintain believability and make the most of the material they work with. And thus, I'd say that the author probably thought about everything that's been debated in here and decided that what he was writing was sufficiently plausible.

I don't know. I read author interviews and notes sometimes, and I've found a surprising amount of "yeah, I don't know what's going on either".

And I certainly could see a nation like Japan getting nearly obsessed with the idea of obtaining peace or maintaining a never-strike-first policy, and carry it further than they should. Just look at modern media, there have been cases where a person or group acted in the most practical and appropriate way possible and wound up crucified by the media; you'd be a fool not to have some concern, so their being too concerned isn't entirely unbelievable. Just look at what happened with the fire dragon's first attack. Itami was able to respond well, but frankly the government itself wasn't doing so well at quelling the media; they only made it out of that because of Rory calling the woman out and then Itami quickly changing the subject. They don't have as much control over what's shown and how it's seen as you may think. Japan's choice might not be practical, but it could work and weirder things have happened.

But here we're not talking about a first strike. (Or a third, if we count the whole Arnus mess as a second strike.) We're talking about shying away from even the appearance of provocation. I don't remember Japan being a stranger to provocation, when it suits them.

Originally Posted by aohige

Anh, keep in mind, the reason why the Japanese government said to not accept asylum is because of all the people already captive. Validating that the doves have ties with Japan would give Zorzal reason to immediately execute all the arrested, and this was not the time to invoke such action.

Well, that's certainly a better reason than any I've read so far. I don't agree with letting Zorzal consolidate his power, make more victims (I don't think Sherry's parents are coming back even if Zorzal eventually gets his comeuppance), and get more hostages, but that's the kind of decision I can see a human being make. Procrastinating on unpleasant or dangerous tasks is quite attractive, after all.

Heck, Sugawara's marriage claims can be seen like that, too. From where I'm sitting in comfort, it looked totally unnecessary. But the man was under pressure. Shit happens.

[rladls2121]

Zorzal, he has to realize quickly that what Tyuule is doing can destroy his country without nothing to gain.
And Tyuule is confident that SDF can easily incinerate the Empire along with Zorzal if more provokes triggered enough Japan to take action.
Just look at Tyuule, and her bewitching smiles, her eagerness to make next moves.
She is the mastermind!!!
A mastermind I tell you!!!
Tyuule is not just some woman wearing a bunny costume cosplay in Akihabara where no one in Japan can't tell a difference between real rabbit creatures and cosplayers!!!
Did I say the last part right?

As of now, Japan itself is actually safe if there's no new GATE opens out of nowhere again.
But here we have Sugawara actually worried about a foreigner but his considering his duty, he had sit down and worry about consequences first before moving his feet.
I thinking back, I wonder if Empire was completely ceased by the SDF instead of just demolishing the buildings with jets, would Zorzal's rash decision of taking the lead have been made?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, that's certainly a better reason than any I've read so far. I don't agree with letting Zorzal consolidate his power, make more victims (I don't think Sherry's parents are coming back even if Zorzal eventually gets his comeuppance), and get more hostages, but that's the kind of decision I can see a human being make. Procrastinating on unpleasant or dangerous tasks is quite attractive, after all.

Heck, Sugawara's marriage claims can be seen like that, too. From where I'm sitting in comfort, it looked totally unnecessary. But the man was under pressure. Shit happens.

The anime omits a TON of information, for the sake of pacing.
The above mentioned reason on why they're being careful not to take in refugees is actually explained by a conversation when we see Kanou react to the reports, but that detail was completely omitted from the scene in the anime. There's also plot about journalists and international inspectors entering special region putting all world eyes on Japanese involvement... also absent from the anime.

I'll refrain from going into details since there's a chance that they'll cover some of them retroactively in the next few episodes, although I doubt all of it will.
Some of it is relevant to the current plot, and wouldn't be relevant afterwards.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

Zorzal, he has to realize quickly that what Tyuule is doing can destroy his country without nothing to gain.
And Tyuule is confident that SDF can easily incinerate the Empire along with Zorzal if more provokes triggered enough Japan to take action.
Just look at Tyuule, and her bewitching smiles, her eagerness to make next moves.
She is the mastermind!!!
A mastermind I tell you!!!
Tyuule is not just some woman wearing a bunny costume cosplay in Akihabara where no one in Japan can't tell a difference between real rabbit creatures and cosplayers!!!
Did I say the last part right?

Doubt that'll happen. He's a stupid and extremely delusional malignant narcissist and I take it she's been feeding his delusions of grandeur for a very long time now. The only evidence he has of her duplicity is her support of his insane ideas, encouragement or even wilder ideas that would make perfect sense given a sense of absolute power, and personal actions that again appear on a simple level to be aimed at making him more powerful and influential, bringing him more glory, and annihilating his enemies. All of these things look like evidence of duplicity and deception to an intelligent, sane person, but to a delusional fool like Zolzal it makes her look like a wise and valuable advisor. The only way he'll realize her true colors is if he overhears her talking about his stupidity and her true intentions of annihilating the empire.