2012-12-15, 13:44 | Link #31401 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Last edited by Valkama; 2012-12-15 at 14:06. |
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2012-12-15, 18:56 | Link #31402 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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EP4: Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island. But actually she never said "no more than 18 humans exist" in those exact words. What she said was: EP3: There are no more than 18 people on this island. Continuing EP4: I will lower that by one for Kinzo!! No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!! I think it's pretty clear that Beatrice uses the terms "humans" and "people" interchangeably. |
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2012-12-15, 23:57 | Link #31403 | |
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This is actually what the trick is about, because from the beginning on Kanon and Shannon are referring to themselves furniture (家具=kagu), distinguishing themselves from humans (人間=ningen). |
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2012-12-16, 00:49 | Link #31404 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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But I'm not sure this necessarily disagrees with what I am trying to say. Basically just that Erika can call Kinzo a human and herself the 18th despite him being dead the whole time of the game because the game played him that way. It is hard to say whether she could also be 18th person, but I suspect so. The only reason I can think that Shannon and Kanon can mess with this is because while they were introduced as the 6th and 7th humans, there are only 17 of them. |
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2012-12-16, 00:55 | Link #31405 |
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I'm still not entirely convinced of what Kinzo actually is on the board. Can he be counted as a human, or a person, or anything really when he's supposed to be dead? This is actually a wholly distinct problem from the "are personalities people" thing. Whether they are or not, Kinzo is not a living human person, a character, or personality as far as we know.
Though Battler did make a theory about Kinzo-as-title, which would perhaps suggest he's a "character." But that raises all sorts of other issues. Basically I'm actually curious about this statement on Erika's part because I'm not sure what she's counting exactly. She's obviously speaking of something other than bodies; as a result, Kinzo's corpse can't be used to count him. But if she's referring even to feigned agency, it doesn't seem like Kinzo should count, because he has none.
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2012-12-16, 08:38 | Link #31406 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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She said this: 妾はこれまで、この島には19人以上の人間は存在しないと宣言してきた。 In reference to this: この島に19人以上いない Does this not mean that, in Beatrice's terms, 19人 means the same thing as 19人の人間? Quote:
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A ghost. A fantasy piece, like Gaap or Ronove. |
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2012-12-16, 09:36 | Link #31407 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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If Shannon and Kanon are separate people on the EP5 game board, then the number of humans to ever participate actually works out to 18 legitimately with no semantic shenanigans. Nice.
Well, that's assuming that separate Shannon and Kanon don't both count as +1 over Yasu, anyway. If you look at the ones in EP5 as, say, Kanon and "Yasu minus Kanon", then one of them is still basically Yasu, so she wouldn't be a new person.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-12-16 at 09:53. |
2012-12-16, 09:51 | Link #31408 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Going off of what Guest Speaker said about them being introduced as the 6th and 7th people. Perhaps 18th person on the island is just a title given to Erika as it is assumed that there are 17 humans on the island before she arrived so she would be given the title of the 18th person. It's not how many people are actually there. Just like how 18th person X is a title given to a person.
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2012-12-16, 11:53 | Link #31410 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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This nothing about Rosa just two things I noticed.
A: Didn't Kanon mention something about becoming the Zero? That's something out of Roulette. I read that up and it's neat if Ryukishi intended that. There is also impair.Let's say a player bets on impair and the ball lands on zero then the bet will be locked/blocked/barred/disabled. If it happens again, the bet is freed.If the ball lands on pair, the bet is lost. If it happens again the process repeats but there is no third time. By the third time all bets locked are forever lost. A player may avoid the lock by sacrificing half his wager to regain the other half as long as the minimum wager can be halfed. However, there is another option that is to place their locked wager on another chance (eg from impair to pair). And another thing So the dining room seatings are according to rank huh? Just like to hear opinions. Krauss-Eva Rudolf-Rosa Jessica-George Battler-Maria Natsuhi-Hideyoshi Kyrie-Nanjo/Originally intended to be the spot for Maria's father. I'm finding this interesting seeing the first twilights of EP 1 and 2. EP 1: Rosa,Krauss,Rudolf,Kyrie,Gohda,"Shannon" We know Natsuhi was intended as victim as well so I think it's safe to say some weren't planned. I do think Krauss,Rudolf and Kyrie were planned but I don't think the others were. Eva and Hideyoshi left the others shortly after midnight, if they would have stayed longer they potentially have fallen victim as well. Krauss,Natsuhi,Kyrie,Rudolf,Eva,Hideyoshi Killing all the married couples first just like in EP2. This is interesting in terms of rank. The 3 highest and the 3 lowest are eliminated. Or by seating order: Eliminated-Eliminated Eliminated-Rosa Jessica-George Battler-Maria Eliminated-Eliminated Eliminated- Purposely left out Nanjo here as he hasn't a rank. Or to make it easier along with Rank: Dead-Dead-Dead-Alive-Alive-Alive-Alive-Alive-Dead-Dead-Dead __2___3____4____5___6___7____8___9__10___11__12 This seems kinda placed to me by Ryukishi that the very center ones of the Hierarchy are alive. Quote:
But Rosa can.It's been stated that Battler was asleep when it happened and not to forget Rosa held the masterkeys. Regarding Nanjo and Kumasawa: It was shown that Rosa told Nanjo something. Rosa: "All you Servants,Gohda-san is going the kitchen to clean the utensils.Just in case, would you please all go with him?" "I'm sorry, Doctor Nanjo.....I wanted to consult you about something." The Servants put the Utensils and empty cans on the serving cart and started to head out into the corridor. Behind them, Rosa oba-san was talking to Doctor Nanjo about something in a small voice. Nanjo: .......Understand, I will go. Rosa: Yes, I am counting on you. It's very interesting when you consider how Nanjo and Kumasawa died and Genji keeping a knife hidden. It's an interesting thought to me if Nanjo and Genji were seperate accomplice of Rosa in EP 2 and Rosa wanting to get rid of one of them by potentially pitting them against another. As in maybe he killed them both but that it was Kanon is a lie and illusion made up by the Servants themselves. Afterall, it was Rosa's thought that Kanon is the Killer.So Rosa somehow pulling the strings seems logical for that as she is the source of: Kanon = Killer thus if she pulled the strings behind the kitchen incident she can be regarded as the source of that Illusion. As for Rosa in EP3: If it's not suicide I blame the one who went out to search for Rosa and Maria by himself, namely Rudolf. And neither Kyrie nor Rudolf were comfirmed as dead until after the death of Nanjo. I wouldn't put it past them that they are the main culprits in EP 3 figuring out Eva solved it but wanting to make the money theirs. Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-12-16 at 12:16. |
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2012-12-16, 14:34 | Link #31411 | |
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Regarding the default scenario. If Shannon and Kanon count, so does Beatrice. This is my problem with the whole thing. There are not two people sharing one body, there are at least three. If they're all counted at once, they should increase the count by +x where x is the maximum number of people that could be counted; if they're only counted when active, only one should ever be counted at once, which means the count should = the number of bodies. That said, there's no evidence I can think of that "Beatrice" actually exists in End or Dawn. So I guess it's only an issue in the first four games (or, at the absolute lower limit, Turn and Alliance), for which there is no exact person count given. Although the final battle of Alliance might cause problems with that, I don't know. This all just seems like so much justification for poorly thought-out cheating.
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2012-12-16, 14:44 | Link #31412 | |||
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Also Eva and Hideyoshi are chosen as accomplices, in fact Hideyoshi lies about seeing Shannon so it's unlikely they were to be chosen as victims that early in the game. Quote:
So it's possible they killed Rosa and Maria and tried to kill/killed Hideyoshi in Ep 3 but they should have ended up being killed by the time Battler found them. Also the game makes pretty clear that when Nanjo was killed they were already dead. Eva Beatrice lists the people who're dead when Nanjo was killed which caused Battler troubles because it left only himself, Jessica and Eva. He knew he couldn't have done it, and the same goes for Eva as he was keeping her under control so he suspected Jessica and Eva Beatrice informed him Jessica didn't do it either. Of course Battler didn't know that Yasu/Sayo was still alive and that only his disguises as Shannon and Kanon had been killed so he couldn't figure out there was an extra person going around killing Nanjo. |
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2012-12-16, 15:14 | Link #31413 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Besides which, maybe it is a necessary component to the solution? Perhaps the reason the culprit is so vengeful and un-Beatrice-like in End is that a crucial tempering influence was subtracted from their personality.
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2012-12-16, 15:20 | Link #31414 |
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At that point we'd just be grasping at straws, because we have no idea how such a process even works to begin with or what "tempering influences" are represented by what character. How could we possibly expect to be able to confirm that or even guess at it without the mechanics of it being presented?
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2012-12-16, 15:30 | Link #31415 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Here is a thought, Beatrice often refers to land as her perfect game. In both Turn and Legend something didn't go entirely as planned. Going off of what Kiltias said about the two games having the same first victims it's entirely possible that both Turn and Legend were games used to compensate incase something went wrong. In Legend although Hideyoshi and Eva are accomplices it's possible they didn't become accomplices until later in the story (Like when the three were alone in front of the gardening shed). The rest of Legend seems to go entirely as planned after that. Turn is the opposite. The beginning goes perfectly as planned but half way through her accomplice gets smart and starts trying to hide away with the people she thinks are safe. Yasu compensates for this by making the servants fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death and pulls people out of Rosa's closed room. So in Land I'm thinking that everything goes entirely as planned and the accomplices do exactly what she says. If this is true I would really like to read it. |
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2012-12-16, 15:37 | Link #31416 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Incidentally, I picked Kanon to split since he has an ironclad alibi for one of the Man From 19 Years Ago phone calls.
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2012-12-16, 16:05 | Link #31417 | |
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A lot of our guesses sound nice and make more sense than knowing nothing, but we can't confirm them. We're wandering way far afield when we say "If Kanon got made his own person for End only, it would change Shannon's motives in this way" when we're already guessing at Shannon's motives in every other scenario and barely understand how the two interact under normal circumstances save that "they do." Would Kanon being just another servant and not a refuge for the host servant's loneliness and anger cause her to become fixated on vengeance over understanding? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be, but how the hell are we supposed to know? It's not that I'm trying to belittle your point here, but it's frustrating because no matter how much nicer it sounds than whatever else we've thrown out here before it's ultimately no more meaningful.
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2012-12-16, 18:17 | Link #31418 | |||||
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The game says as follows: Quote:
Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa were declared dead prior to Nanjo's death and the same applies to Rosa and Maria. This would leave out Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi and George. I'll say that Battler checked Rudolf and Kyrie and possibly even some of the others if not them all (I don't remember well if he got close enough and if they presented clear signs they were corpses) but let's pretend he didn't check them at all. If one of them were to be alive he would have to reach Nanjo and kill him to... go die short after in some unknown place for... what? An incident? Not really mystery like. If that person was previously fatally wounded but still alive then he/she would have likely left drops of blood all around and in this case he/she wouldn't have had a reason to fake his/her death, he/she could have said he/she'd been attacked and defended himself/herself and then ask for medical aid. It'll be safe than risking to bleed to death. So likely Beato could have destroyed Battler's blue truth pretty easily as Bern and Lambda did for some blue truths about Ep 1 that Battler used (one of which, if I don't remember wrong, was already disproved by a red Beato used previously although during the duel in EP 4 she didn't counter it) Quote:
Not really. Beato refers to it as her best tale Quote:
I seem to remember Ryukishi said Land was supposed to be difficult so I guess that's what Beato (who's likely MetaBeato as she's talking with MetaAnge) means. Quote:
In Ep 3 Eva might have been blackmailed as well, EvaBeatrice talking to her might have been the equivalent version of the man of 19 years ago. Instead than a phonecall saying 'I'm your child' she got one saying 'I'm Beatrice/the witch inside you and I'll help you get the money if you do as I say'. Then the voice might have tried trapping Eva in a situation similar to Natsuhi, Kyrie got suspicious so she questioned Hideyoshi but things went wrong and they died. In short we would still have a manipulative, vengeful and mean Yasu but it's more hidden than the one in Ep 5, a Yasu that wants to take away from Eva everything she loves because Eva said something along the line of her being below George implying only money and not love matters. Same for Ep 2 in which Yasu might have claimed of being her mother to force Rosa into being an accomplice. |
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2012-12-16, 18:53 | Link #31419 | |
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2012-12-16, 20:23 | Link #31420 | |
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Natsuhi and Krauss were clearly staked and Battler saw they had strangulations signs. I think it's enough to say he checked they were dead. The same goes from George. According to Battler he couldn't see in him any sign of life. Hideyoshi is clearly staked in the chest, Rudolf has a stake on his forehead and Kyrie one in her stomach. Battler viewed them so, since he's the detective and what he sees is reliable I'll say here the deaths were checked as well. In short even if those deaths aren't confirmed by the red they're confirmed by the detective. Of course Battler doesn't know he is blessed with the reliable point of view of the detective so he can make that theory but we know. The red for Rosa and Maria's death is also confirmed by the red that define the cause for their death. In short even if we say that the red declaring Rosa's death applied only to... let's say her good mama personality, she had a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence which makes her chance to survive pretty nonexistant. Interesting enough, the first 6 victims didn't have the cause of their death declared (we only know it wasn't suicide or a trap) and, although Shannon is in the same room in which George is lying death, Battler doesn't say a word about her, implying he doesn't check her life or death status. In the manga she's even represented as lying on her stomach, so he couldn't see the 'wound' on her chest. |
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