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Old 2019-11-12, 14:25   Link #61
Applehell
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Join Date: Apr 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But, this isn't the only facepalm moment of this episode, I just can't fathom exactly what Seizaki is planning to do after he kidnaps Itsuki. Let's not even talk about the fact he would commit a grave crime, what is he going to do with Itsuki after that? Does he plan to keep him in a basement for the rest of his life? Is he planning to kill him? Is he just thinking that he could release him after that and that at that point he would magically stop working on his plan and that he wouldn't press charge against him and everyone that helped him?
The point is stop body count from growing. Itsuki and Ai are killing people just by meeting them and have cause over 60+ deaths simultaneously. As far we can all the suicide victim were otherwise healthy minded people whom all suddenly died. This case defies common sense it's standard practice isn't enough to deal with it. It's like Death Note where Light's enemies had to take extreme and pretty law-break methods to deal with him because there no law able handle Death Note. So of course it is a gambit, he's got little choice in matter when the system is proving inefficient in dealing with people like Itsuki and Ai. He doesn't plan to stay a prosecutor anyway after learning the whole Shinki deal his boss was in on.

We just gonna have wait and see what he does when Zen has him, but this path is not unusual for character in his position when faced something highly unprecedented and the limits of human laws are forcibly laid bare to this sort of scenario. Honestly when I think about it reminds of Kougami ditching Sybl's control to catch Mikashima in PP S1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
The entire existence of Magase being a shape-shifting, intellectual rapist that drives people to suicide was already stretching it, but this episode...
Ok, I'm not sure why some people are have issue with this. You can absolutely do supernatural elements in a normal setting. There is entire genre dedicated to this and the show never pretended there wasn't something very strange about this case from the start. Babylon has been operating on fact that Ai may be someone supernatural or someone with powers who can exhort strong influences over people she has literally met secs ago. It may not have been what you wanted out a standard cop show, but it's not bad writing at all have supernatural elements in ground setting providing there is no hard rules about. Especially when it's part of mystery.

I mean the show is not perfect or anything, but it's made point on various level that Zen not fighting a normal criminal. It's someone who can effectively get away with murder by a either unknown or well disguised method.

Quote:
  • Planning to kidnap a politician? (Probably just until after the election, but still...)
  • Equating suicide to marijuana usage? (Its the black market that's the issue)
  • Pointing out the logical fallacy but letting the argument continue regardless? (Challenge him, dammit!)
  • Appealing to emotion? (Though I guess someone had to).
  • Only one question/remark from each person on the against side? (Where's the debate!?)
  • Not doing a simple background check on the boy you're planning to prop up in an election? (It was so obvious that was going to backfire).
Other than last point which is indeed shoddy writing all the stuff are fine? Just as characters are allowed to act irrationally they can also make fallacious statements and rehortic. The fact Itsuki was only selective addressing points he wanted to ignored the holes in his own argument, talked over others or made twisted comparisons is differently intentional and entirely grounded. That happens IRL too. The other politicians where trying to make counterarguments at incredulous statements but he mostly ignored them when they tried to object. Then Nomaru pulled his gambit and we have this situation now.

Quote:
Maybe I've just lost the plot. What exactly does this suicide law actually enable if its not illegal in the first place? And what's the intent? Does it cover Euthanasia and people in exacerbating circumstances like a painful terminal illness?
Itsuki or Ai wants normalize suicide, to make socially accepted instead of horrendous. We aren't talking Euthanasia which is very specifically performed on terminal ill people but just randomly committing for any reason.

Last edited by Applehell; 2019-11-12 at 14:41.
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Old 2019-11-12, 17:31   Link #62
Guardian Enzo
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Puts me in mind a high school film project directed by a kid who watches the news and sees a lot of French movies.
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Old 2019-11-12, 19:51   Link #63
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
Ok, I'm not sure why some people are have issue with this. You can absolutely do supernatural elements in a normal setting. There is entire genre dedicated to this and the show never pretended there wasn't something very strange about this case from the start.
On the other hand, there have been a spate of cop shows this season and last, and every one of them has some supernatural angle. It's as though a straightforward detective story with ordinary humans is insufficient to meet the demands of today's audience.
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Old 2019-11-12, 20:42   Link #64
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Cloudedmind View Post
But, isn't that also why Itsuki is having the people vote on it? Or at least he's running on the platform of making suicide legal, so it can be viewed that anyone who votes for him, agrees with his proposal. So, he isn't completely banking on the law itself changing people's attitudes, but that the whole discussion up to the vote will.
Itsuki's actions could make sense as a publicity stunt, if he said something outrageous and that doesn't really make sense to sensitize people's opinion on the specific topic of suicide, but in that case I'd expect someone to point that out.

It's like that whole chess move in Code Geass, it doesn't matter how many explanations you bring up to justify it, someone in the show should have pointed out that that was an illegal move, and the lack of any comment of that kind really betrays the author's lack of understanding of the subject he's treating.
The same thing applies here, someone should have pointed out that you can't legalize what is already legal, that you don't need a law that states that something is legal, because anything that isn't declared illegal is already automatically legal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
The point is stop body count from growing. Itsuki and Ai are killing people just by meeting them and have cause over 60+ deaths simultaneously. As far we can all the suicide victim were otherwise healthy minded people whom all suddenly died. This case defies common sense it's standard practice isn't enough to deal with it. It's like Death Note where Light's enemies had to take extreme and pretty law-break methods to deal with him because there no law able handle Death Note. So of course it is a gambit, he's got little choice in matter when the system is proving inefficient in dealing with people like Itsuki and Ai. He doesn't plan to stay a prosecutor anyway after learning the whole Shinki deal his boss was in on.
That would mean he believes that Itsuki, and not just Magase Ai, possess that power, and this is something that seems to be indeed hinted in other instances, for example when Zen expects that Itsuki had physically met with the people that committed mass suicide, instead of expecting that Magase Ai had met them, while Itsuki took care to stay far from them to keep his image clean in appearance.

Someone possessing supernatural powers is definitely an exceptional case, and to even think that someone actually does that you need exceptional evidence. In the case of Magase Ai I believe such evidence exists, but in the case of Itsuki there's really nothing that would make a rational person think so.
It is certainly reasonable to think that Itsuki is involved in the incident, but to think he himself used ESP powers? When all the evidence that Zen possesses points straight to Ai?

The other possibility is that he somehow thinks that Ai is following Itsuki's orders and that she would do nothing without Itsuki's commands. In which case... seriously, Zen? After all you've learned from her you think she's just a pawn?

Putting on the line the career of so many police officers for something that has almost zero chances of actually stopping the series of suicides, sounds like a very poor conceived gambit to me.
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Old 2019-11-12, 20:58   Link #65
Grifis
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Itsuki's new suicide law doesn't make people kill themselves. It's Ai who did something to their brains. Or people think it must be fun to jump of buildings.

The main guy is desperado but I thought his grand plan may be something other than kidnapping Itsuki. (Actually I shouldn't talk 'cause I skimmed some parts since I was kind of bored but I thought he wasn't serious about the kidnapping.)
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Old 2019-11-13, 01:37   Link #66
Tenzen12
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Law itself is problematic on its own (just imagine what would this law mean for insurance companies. Even bigger problem is it comes with developing and distribution drug that make people kill themselves.
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Old 2019-11-14, 01:09   Link #67
Cosmic Eagle
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That debate was......facepalm worthy. The arguments of the opposition....It's like they aren't even trying. The moral guy alone has more than enough reasons why suicide of healthy individuals is morally wrong but he never even raised them and he and his compatriots just quietly folded over.

Also, the entire prosecution team decides to just illegally kidnap Itsuki? Whut....Even bringing him in for questioning as opposed to a full arrest would be better than that. I get the need to stop him since he's clearly a psychological threat but what will you do after you kidnap him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Itsuki's actions could make sense as a publicity stunt, if he said something outrageous and that doesn't really make sense to sensitize people's opinion on the specific topic of suicide, but in that case I'd expect someone to point that out.

It's like that whole chess move in Code Geass, it doesn't matter how many explanations you bring up to justify it, someone in the show should have pointed out that that was an illegal move, and the lack of any comment of that kind really betrays the author's lack of understanding of the subject he's treating.
The same thing applies here, someone should have pointed out that you can't legalize what is already legal, that you don't need a law that states that something is legal, because anything that isn't declared illegal is already automatically legal.
To be fair, his real aim seems to be encouraging and normalizing suicide though. The legislation's actual status seems to be just a tool to that end. As for Itsuki, it's fair to believe Ai will follow up on actually making people off themselves since she's obviously linked to him. It's just that the kidnap Itsuki plan is really, really stupid. Especially when Itsuki himself appears to be a pawn
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2019-11-14 at 01:19.
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Old 2019-11-15, 18:11   Link #68
Applehell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
On the other hand, there have been a spate of cop shows this season and last, and every one of them has some supernatural angle. It's as though a straightforward detective story with ordinary humans is insufficient to meet the demands of today's audience.
That's completely fair and I agree. But if Babylon wasn't aiming to be that kind of series in the first place it's unfair bash for not meeting these expectation. Most he happenings in the end still may turn out to have more mundane explanations like that drug mentioned awhile back, but in the first 3 episode there plenty of room to be believe something unnatural was occurring especially with Ai becoming otherworldly to point her face literally shifting to the different women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That would mean he believes that Itsuki, and not just Magase Ai, possess that power, and this is something that seems to be indeed hinted in other instances, for example when Zen expects that Itsuki had physically met with the people that committed mass suicide, instead of expecting that Magase Ai had met them, while Itsuki took care to stay far from them to keep his image clean in appearance.

Someone possessing supernatural powers is definitely an exceptional case, and to even think that someone actually does that you need exceptional evidence. In the case of Magase Ai I believe such evidence exists, but in the case of Itsuki there's really nothing that would make a rational person think so.
It is certainly reasonable to think that Itsuki is involved in the incident, but to think he himself used ESP powers? When all the evidence that Zen possesses points straight to Ai?

The other possibility is that he somehow thinks that Ai is following Itsuki's orders and that she would do nothing without Itsuki's commands. In which case... seriously, Zen? After all you've learned from her you think she's just a pawn?

Zen sees Itsuki as Ai's accomplice and vice versa. He doesn't have those powers himself to be just as guilty if he's using her knowing so as she is him. I mean if a client of a hitman orders assassination of a target, the client is still culprit even if they pull the trigger themselves. Zen is probably hoping the one will lead to the other.

Quote:
Putting on the line the career of so many police officers for something that has almost zero chances of actually stopping the series of suicides, sounds like a very poor conceived gambit to me.
Zen didn't do that tho. He disbanded the current special investigation team and told them directly what he planned to do, knowing full this it would be highly illegal. Even if Zen succeeds it would only light consequences of his reckless and bold plan. So he gave them an out save their careers. They are ones who choose stick with him in light of that. As things stand now their haven't gotten anywhere and are running out of time and the election is only one to two days after this debate. With the sharply increasing suicide rates after Itsuki's declaration and uncertainty about next level of chaos Itsuki and Ai's gonna unleash post election, he's getting understandably desperate to bring them down before more lives both that of his own men and others are claimed.
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Old 2019-11-18, 13:07   Link #69
Stark700
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Episode 8 gets a huge delay to December 30th

https://twitter.com/chikichikiko/sta...605440515?s=19
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Old 2019-11-18, 13:17   Link #70
SeijiSensei
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That must be to let us recover from episode seven.
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Old 2019-11-18, 13:31   Link #71
LG-MAX 2.o
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Abnormally heavy episode. After I'll check to see if the one on TV was the same as on Amazon. So far there have been no differences, but this ep has been special ..But from the images, it looks like it will be the same, something like that being displayed at 10pm on a non-AT-X channel is pretty unusua: http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/162890

Although Dororo was like that too. Either way, this anime was very surprising.
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Old 2019-11-18, 18:44   Link #72
Jan-Poo
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Okay at this point I'm almost certain that "Sekuro" was Magase all along. People started killing themselves only after "Sekuro" left, and then she was conveniently missing.

Then we see Magase with a Sekuro tied up, but we cannot clearly see her face nor we can hear her voice.

That was probably the real Sekuro who died, but Magase must have kidnapped her a long time before and then she replaced her and posed as her to closely observe Zen.


In a way she prevented him from becoming a criminal.
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Old 2019-11-19, 08:53   Link #73
Grifis
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That was hard to watch.
So uh main guy's despair will only get worst. His family is most likely in Ai's scope. But why didn't she do the whisper thing with the girl? Show off how evil she is?
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Old 2019-11-19, 13:43   Link #74
LG-MAX 2.o
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The first seven episodes of the series will re-air beginning on Tokyo MX on November 25 at 10:00 p.m. I hope this means the series is popular there. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...ber-30/.153445
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Old 2019-11-19, 17:33   Link #75
Anh_Minh
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And it started so well on the suicide law front.
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Old 2019-11-20, 07:24   Link #76
Haak
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Wow, that was absolutely brutal ending. I wish I hadnít watched this episode just before work because I won't be able to get my mind off of that scene for the entire day. Puts me in mind of when Makishima Shougo killed Akaneís friend right in front of her in PsychoPass. Itís the kind of brutality that Iíve complained is missing in PsychoPass Season 3 currently airing, so imagine my surprise finding it here instead.

Though Iím still not that okay with Magaseís ridiculous brainwashing powers, and to this point itís still something that largely happens off screen so itís still an unconvincing Informed Attribute to me. If Magase convinced Seizaki to kill himself at the end of that brutal scene I would have bought it completely, but thatís clearly not what she does with the others.

I was rather impressed with the curveball at the start of the episode and how it turned out the only reason Itsuki was doing all this was to save his son. Although Iím not in position to judge this all that well because I donít know the laws of Japan but they didnít really seem to touch on the law surrounding organ donations. If Itsuki was a registered organ donor, wouldnít his heart go to his son if he committed suicide anyway? Though I suppose if it were legalized, the advantage would be that hospitals could actually develop assisted suicide procedures that are clean and peaceful for the organ donor so they donít have to kill themselves in violent manners. This is all off the top of my head though so Iíd probably have to look at this subject matter in more detail for a more informed opinion.

But it certainly makes a lot more sense now why he is doing this. Why he didnít just make that argument to begin with though I donít really get. And the question remains is why heís sided with a dangerous serial killer just to do all this. Even if he does have a point about assisted suicide for organ donors, his working together with Magase is impossible to overlook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Okay at this point I'm almost certain that "Sekuro" was Magase all along. People started killing themselves only after "Sekuro" left, and then she was conveniently missing.

Then we see Magase with a Sekuro tied up, but we cannot clearly see her face nor we can hear her voice.

That was probably the real Sekuro who died, but Magase must have kidnapped her a long time before and then she replaced her and posed as her to closely observe Zen.

In a way she prevented him from becoming a criminal.
I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that Sekuro was in the same room as Seizaki when he got that phone call from Magase two episodes ago. The story also clearly implied that the kid's mum is Magase and not just from Seizaki's POV so it would be extremely bad "sportsmanship" if they went back from that.
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Old 2019-11-20, 09:04   Link #77
Grifis
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What I didn't see coming are: 1. Itsuki is actually eloquent and charismatic. 2. Ai is Itsuki's wife (if that). The one reason I watched this show was to find out Ai's background and her motives but now I also want to know how Itsuki will come out from this mess. I'm certainly not in this to see the main guy squirm from Ai's sadistic tortures nor am I that interested to see how he will "defeat" her. I'm more interested in a Itsuki vs. Ai's showdown. But unfortunately, he's not the main guy.
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Old 2019-11-20, 14:50   Link #78
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Although Iím not in position to judge this all that well because I donít know the laws of Japan but they didnít really seem to touch on the law surrounding organ donations. If Itsuki was a registered organ donor, wouldnít his heart go to his son if he committed suicide anyway?
I thought it was suggested that suicide to become an organ-donor was illegal.

A quick Google search shows there is considerably controversy over whether it is legal or ethical to end one's life to become an organ donor. Euthanasia as a mechanism for organ donation is legal in Canada, Belgium and the Netherlands. Physicians who specialize in organ transplants are unsurprisingly nervous about this procedure becoming a trend.
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Old 2019-11-23, 22:32   Link #79
Alchemist007
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Show kind of lost me at ep. 7. I liked it when Magase had some mystery/plausible deniability to her actions. Now it's straight to ax murderer. Ok.
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Old 2019-11-24, 12:29   Link #80
Cosmic Eagle
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Uh.....huh. Please tell me Magase's point ultimately is something deeper than "just because evil." After all, even saints don't do good things "just because good" either. But after how derpy she was at the end swinging that ax, I'm not holding my breath.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Okay at this point I'm almost certain that "Sekuro" was Magase all along. People started killing themselves only after "Sekuro" left, and then she was conveniently missing.

Then we see Magase with a Sekuro tied up, but we cannot clearly see her face nor we can hear her voice.

That was probably the real Sekuro who died, but Magase must have kidnapped her a long time before and then she replaced her and posed as her to closely observe Zen.


In a way she prevented him from becoming a criminal.
Not really certain on that though. The teams started going dead when Sekuro was still with him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that Sekuro was in the same room as Seizaki when he got that phone call from Magase two episodes ago. The story also clearly implied that the kid's mum is Magase and not just from Seizaki's POV so it would be extremely bad "sportsmanship" if they went back from that.
Admittedly there's still the possibility the call was recorded or that Seizaki is nuts and all this is going on in his head while he goes on a murder spree. Who Sekuro really is is still unclear IMO
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2019-11-24 at 12:40.
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