[Manga] Chapter 502 Discussion

[Nite-Wing]

Well I'm glad that Kishi is keeping up the mystery that is Madara/Tobi I'm starting to think Madara actually died after his fight with the 1st and this is just an entity controlling his body now.
blah blah blah level 2 Hiraishin is boring.........Its the same BS about destiny that Kishi pretty much subverted in every possible way in part 2.
Also unless Minato gets killed by Madara this flashback should really be focusing on Kushina.

[Ero-Senn1n]

I don't see why is Minato's question leading people to think that this is not Madara. I think it's more likely a confirmation of him being really Madara. Because Minato is listing all the things he did that night and so he came to the conclusion that only one person can do this, and that is Madara. If it is really Madara he would probably want to keep his identity secret, since he does not want the world to know about him being alive, not yet, not while he is forming the akatsuki and hunting for demons in secret. If he were not Madara he would gladly say that "yes, i'm Madara". Also if he wanted Yondaime to think it's someone from the Uchiha clan he would not reveal his idenity, so that the village would blame the Uchiha clan.

I can see how the Tobi=Obito theories will come back, as a student wanting revenge on his sensei because he thinks it's Minato's fault that he left 3 children on the battlefield

I was sure that Naruto's "that jutsu" was not Yondaime's Hiraishin, because it would not make sense to need huge amount of chakra to do it, Yondaime didnt have such amount of chakra. However this "second level" of Hiraishin might be something that needs huge amount of chakra, and that was a big problem for Yondaime since he had just human amount of chakra. So if Yondaime was forced to use this second level and it was not effective against Madara that would mean that he was running out of chakra after a few uses of it, so he had no other option than using the Death God jutsu, he could teleport to Naruto and Kushina to execute his plan on sealing kyuubi, and of course to Sandaime to tell him his plan (Kishimoto of course telling that he had no time to tell Sandaime about Madara...), in the meantime Madara killed a lot of ninjas that tried to stop him. And Jiraya knowing about a second level of Hiraishin is just like Kakashi knowing about second level of rasengan. For both huge amounts of chakra are needed. Also Naruto knowing this jutsu would be logical because otherwise Sasuke would be able to hit him with amaterasu or susano, this jutsu could be Naruto's ultimate defense (similar to raikage's lightning-powered super-speed).

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't see why is Minato's question leading people to think that this is not Madara. I think it's more likely a confirmation of him being really Madara. Because Minato is listing all the things he did that night and so he came to the conclusion that only one person can do this, and that is Madara. If it is really Madara he would probably want to keep his identity secret, since he does not want the world to know about him being alive, not yet, not while he is forming the akatsuki and hunting for demons in secret. If he were not Madara he would gladly say that "yes, i'm Madara". Also if he wanted Yondaime to think it's someone from the Uchiha clan he would not reveal his idenity, so that the village would blame the Uchiha clan.

Honestly, it's gotten to the point where if Tobi is anyone/thing less than Rikudou-Sennin, the Jyuubi, or a complete surprise (Tobirama, Izuna, Hashirama, etc (no Obito nor Madara are a surprise)), I expect many of us will feel cheated by the constant mystery...

That being said, between the Kyuubi's recognition of the intruder as well as this current chapter, where Minato calmly comes to the conclusion that the masked man is Madara (and the non-answer answer from Tobi strongly encourages the speculation), I expect Madara is now at the forefront of the little "Who si Tobi?" discussion...

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I was sure that Naruto's "that jutsu" was not Yondaime's Hiraishin, because it would not make sense to need huge amount of chakra to do it, Yondaime didnt have such amount of chakra. However this "second level" of Hiraishin might be something that needs huge amount of chakra, and that was a big problem for Yondaime since he had just human amount of chakra....And Jiraya knowing about a second level of Hiraishin is just like Kakashi knowing about second level of rasengan. For both huge amounts of chakra are needed. Also Naruto knowing this jutsu would be logical because otherwise Sasuke would be able to hit him with amaterasu or susano, this jutsu could be Naruto's ultimate defense (similar to raikage's lightning-powered super-speed).

Makes sense. Unlike you, though, I've always expected Naruto to learn the Hiraishin eventually (especially after Minato was revealed as his father).

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by DeDe

To be fair, that would be a huge waste of panels and not really relevant to anything that is happening now in the manga. Jiraiya and Orochimaru are now old news. Neither are prominent characters anymore. And seeing the Sannin fight Hanzou would be pointless. Kishi had his chance during the Pain Arc and wisely realized that it would have only wasted time. Kishi is only showing us this flashback because it relates to the main character's past. It just ties up loose ends so the current story can progress.

Oh I realize that; I wasn't trying to say that the author should actually do all of that at present... I merely brought up those fighting scenes as they came to mind while making the point that just because we know how things will end beforehand, doesn't mean it has to be boring. Those are just fights that I would love to see, and so used them to illustrate that point.

[Luminion Lancer]

-So another one of daddy's tricks needs to be completed by Naruto in order to restore the status quo once again, huh? First it was Rasengan needing an element added in, and now this? You know, for techniques that supposedly aren't "ownage", they do a pretty good job of it already. But I guess Naruto using just the plain Rasengan and Hiraishin would make people yell "He's a mere carbon-copy of Minato" and rage in the various forums for days on end. Looking forward to when we are done this exhibition and move on with the main story.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't see why is Minato's question leading people to think that this is not Madara.

I think part of the reason is because we are getting some loose reason to doubt him being madara and now they are hunting for clues... i mean one thing that popped up 2 chapters ago was madara popping in at the end, and the end text asking "who's face lies behind the mask!?".... really why did it ask, wasn't it madara, i mean we even saw what madara's mask used to look like in the when he was telling itachi's story; there shouldn't be a question of who that is and why he's here... Another reason might be the fact that madara is STILL wearing the mask... masks are meant for keeping a secret identity, and madara already blew the whistle on himself at the summit, so why keep wearing a mask? and We also got kabuto who knows something, and has something that madara does not want him to have... people speculate that it may be proof of his true identity... and hell kushina's story even got people thinking tobi might be an Eddy ninja...

So now speculation is in the hair and people are looking for info... and this would include finding incorrect clues or blowing things out of proportion.

[Nite-Wing]

This fight is pointless imo
We already know Minato is killed by the Kyubi if Kishi makes Madara/Tobi or whoever is behind the mask I will be dissapointed.
This flashback is approaching the Itachi reveal level of Lulzness.........all I'm paying attention to is the fact that this isn't really Madara and that Hiraishin level 2 is just dumb.......how many Jutsus are you gonna have Naruto steal from Minato's repertoire Kishi???

[morbosfist]

If Naruto weren't stealing the techniques from somewhere, he'd be a lot weaker, and he's hardly the only character guilty of it. Sakura has Tsunade's powers (but weaker) and Sasuke has the powers of Itachi (but better) along with things stolen from Orochimaru. Same for all the rookies. The inheriting and improvement of clan/family/etc techniques is a big part of this series.

[Goshin]

I wonder if the way madara travels is hirashin lvl 2. Maybe he learned it while fighting minato.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Goshin

I wonder if the way madara travels is hirashin lvl 2. Maybe he learned it while fighting minato.

Madara already used his Space/Time jutsu so that wouldn't make sense. (Unless he's been spying on Minato and saw him use the technique)

[ntherblast]

wait so sage mode and control of the 9 tails was not a good enough power up eh

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Neji112

I am actually enjoying the flashback, it's a lot more interesting than the direct Naruto/Sasuke plot right now. Plus I'm also interested to get history from someone other than Madara as you can't really trust anything he says. Villains tendency to lie make all information from them suspect to begin with,

My biggest fear at the moment is that even with all this hype and history Tobi/Madara isn't going to be the final boss and just be a sacrifice for a Sasuke power up like Orochimaru ended up being.

Talk about it. In the flashbacks, I always thought that Orochimaru killed Tsunade's brother and boyfriend because he was always there, waiting for Tsunade to arrive.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by ntherblast

wait so sage mode and control of the 9 tails was not a good enough power up eh

It's pointless to have huge chakra if you can't use it. Akatsuki ninjas were capturing demon hosts because they had ultimate jutsu while the hosts just had a lot of chakra but no powerful jutsu. Naruto's sage mode doesn't work properly if he is caught by surprise, since he had to prepare against Pain, he was already in sage mode when entering battle and also he had 2 clones in sage mode, but still he lost the battle when god realm regained his power. And Pain wasn't even trying to kill him, but Sasuke will try that. So Naruto needs to be able to enter sage mode in an instant and to maintain it during a longer battle. Summoning a clone like he did against Pain would be too slow against Sasuke, and while he is out of sage mode he would be killed.


Instead of these who is tobi theories i would like to see some theories about why is only half of the kyuubi sealed in Naruto and what can this mean. The other hosts have the full chakra of their demon. If the other half is in the death god or who knows where then there are now 2 kyuubi souls? In Naruto's body we can see that the chakra had a mind too, so the other half should also have a mind. Or i didn't interpret chapter 370 properly, and both halves are in Naruto, just somehow separated: we can see that when Naruto pulls out the white part the kyuubi is forming a big black sphere just before he is sealed. So maybe the black ball part is the other half.
Also Naruto having a special way of 2 halves of chakra may be an indication that one half will never be extracted from Naruto, the other half maybe, and that combined with his bloodline power may mean that he can survive the extraction of one half and not lose any of his powerups.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's pointless to have huge chakra if you can't use it. Akatsuki ninjas were capturing demon hosts because they had ultimate jutsu while the hosts just had a lot of chakra but no powerful jutsu. Naruto's sage mode doesn't work properly if he is caught by surprise, since he had to prepare against Pain, he was already in sage mode when entering battle and also he had 2 clones in sage mode, but still he lost the battle when god realm regained his power.

Well, that's not entirely correct. Naruto used sage mode in the fight against the Kyuubi and he activated it in battle and without clones, but his real body was kind of sitting around and I don't know if that is to be taken into consideration.

Hiraishin has been interesting ever since and a power-up version could be performed by an Uzumaki who has a natural affinity for sealing techniques.
I agree that Naruto is supposed to be powerful now, but I agree with you about him having absolutely no technique that could be useful against Sasuke or Madara.

[Nite-Wing]

Its pointless to give naruto new techniques if hes only going to use them against sasuke.
Zombie Akatsuki would be ROLFstomp at this point for him

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

Eh? My impression from the spoiler is that Minato used Hiraishin lvl 2 against Madara at the end of the chapter. Why would he reveal a technique he couldn't use against the enemy?

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Eh? My impression from the spoiler is that Minato used Hiraishin lvl 2 against Madara at the end of the chapter. Why would he reveal a technique he couldn't use against the enemy?

I think the part in parentheses was James' personal prediction, based on previous experience. (Rasengan)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, that's not entirely correct. Naruto used sage mode in the fight against the Kyuubi and he activated it in battle and without clones, but his real body was kind of sitting around and I don't know if that is to be taken into consideration.

Naruto never moved throughout that entire fight. It was one big battle of the mind. He could use Sage Mode in that manner because he wasn't actually moving.

Originally Posted by Nite-Wing

Its pointless to give naruto new techniques if hes only going to use them against sasuke.
Zombie Akatsuki would be ROLFstomp at this point for him

Sasuke is constantly getting new uber techniques. How is Naruto ever to win if he doesn't do the same?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Gin

I think the part in parentheses was James' personal prediction, based on previous experience. (Rasengan)

Ok yeah, I see. It would be pretty amazing if "that" jutsu was a new Hiraishin. Though I never thought the jutsu quite fit Naruto, it seems like a jutsu that's more suited for someone who thinks several steps ahead. Naruto's more of a on-the-fly type fighter.

[HiddenMessage]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ok yeah, I see. It would be pretty amazing if "that" jutsu was a new Hiraishin. Though I never thought the jutsu quite fit Naruto, it seems like a jutsu that's more suited for someone who thinks several steps ahead. Naruto's more of a on-the-fly type fighter.

Naruto did plenty of planning in his fights. Off the top of my head he planned the underground upper cut with Neji and planned the clones with sage chakra for Pain.