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Old 2010-12-19, 07:55   Link #19941
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Teapot View Post
All we got from that scene were confirmations of when people were really dead,when people faked their deaths and that the fantasy scenes were obvious lies, I guess whatever methods the fans make of how the crimes went down will satisfy Ryukishi....
All we need to know is which murders were faked and which werent.

From there. Well. Leave that to the Golden Age experts.
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Old 2010-12-19, 09:46   Link #19942
rogerpepitone
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I don't think it's a matter of the murders being faked; in E1T1, the five really are dead (it's only lying about Shannon's death); in E1T2, both are dead (it's only lying about the chain being set).
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:10   Link #19943
Judoh
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Man, that was a lot of rambling. Essentially, all roads lead to George.
Yes. And what three things only happen when Battler returns? Not in 1985 and not in 1987?

1) George's proposal

2) The Typhoon

3) Parents money problems reach their peak
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:35   Link #19944
witchfan
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
An elaborate contraption that involved a pair of glasses, a handkerchief, a rope and a gun
Shannon is a huge meganekko! This is the key to what happened that day!! Wargrave would be proud.
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:35   Link #19945
zorahk
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Renall, you're not seriously still trying to deny Shkannon at this point are you? Isn't it time to throw in the towel on that one?
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:39   Link #19946
witchfan
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Renall, you're not seriously still trying to deny Shkannon at this point are you? Isn't it time to throw in the towel on that one?
From what I can tell--more like he's denying Shannon cross-dressing as a certain servant boy and deluding Rokkenjima's residents for years. Which makes a lot of sense, really.
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:41   Link #19947
zorahk
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From what I can tell--more like he's denying Shannon cross-dressing as a certain servant boy and deluding Rokkenjima's residents for years. Which makes a lot of sense, really.
Oh, well in that case my opinion on that is neither shannon nor kanon ever existed and they are simply written into the story by yasuclaireliontrice in order to represent her multiple personality issues.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:05   Link #19948
ijriims
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Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
Oh, well in that case my opinion on that is neither shannon nor kanon ever existed and they are simply written into the story by yasuclaireliontrice in order to represent her multiple personality issues.

I would easily agree with you if something like "Gohda's note" did not exist.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:17   Link #19949
Pika_power
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Originally Posted by incko View Post
I'm in the middle of the Tea Party of Episode 7,

a few moments before Will appears in the Tea Party the text says somethign about
that the persont talking is not capable of love(sex?) because of his body, and that he had rather died of that accident than live this life similar to furniture

Is this Lion talking? and is this the answer to his gender question? does he in fact have no gender because of some strange accident? was some kind of accident ever mentioned in the story?

I would love to read some answers of you
Just popping this question over from the EP7 thread.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:17   Link #19950
zorahk
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
Just popping this question over from the EP7 thread.
we don't actually know. some people speculate that the accident involved something of that sort.


IMO, the name 理御 sounds like a male name, and kinzo says he wanted to give this child that name,
however something must've prevented that from happening, so maybe that is because they became female due to the accident, and so
the character ends up becoming claire/yasu/beatrice.

In other words, if they are not dropped off the cliff and are accepted by Natsuhi, they are male and named Lion. If they fall off the cliff they become female/unknown, Yasu/Claire.
However, because they are not actually female, this causes the split personality issue, and explains the creation of Kanon as a male personality.

Last edited by zorahk; 2010-12-19 at 13:28.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:19   Link #19951
witchfan
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To play witch's advocate here for a sec, is there really problem with both Shannon and Kanon existing? I'm not saying they both existed on Rokkenjima at the day of the massacre. I'm also not saying Beatrice did not conjure up a magical little brother for Shannon. But, is there a problem with a person called Kanon, that exists regardless, and works as a servant on the island?

Unless I'm out of my mind and am forgetting an important detail, it's not such an outrageous claim. We haven't gotten to see a lot of Shannon-Kanon interaction in EP7, which may imply that, behind the scenes, a lot was going on between them.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:20   Link #19952
zorahk
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There's no problem with it but I think it's strongly implied that they are all split personalities of Yasu (who is in reality supposed to be lion)
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:28   Link #19953
witchfan
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It is definitely not implied they are split personalities. I don't believe that makes sense at all. If anything, they are different aspects of Yasu's personality.

Going along with my previous conjecture, here's a wild guess. What if Kanon existed, and died prior to the day of the crime*? I believe this explains the "pitfall" Wright almost got himself into in the beginning of the episode. It brings up interesting possibilities in regard to the love duel. Lastly, it might explain why 1986 is such a cursed year. How about it? Am I speaking nonsense, or does anyone care to take this line of thought further?

* EPs 5-6 might be an exception.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:31   Link #19954
zorahk
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
It is definitely not implied they are split personalities. I don't believe that makes sense at all. If anything, they are different aspects of Yasu's personality.

Going along with my previous conjecture, here's a wild guess. What if Kanon existed, and died prior to the day of the crime? I believe this explains the "pitfall" Wright almost got himself into in the beginning of the episode. It brings up interesting possibilities in regard to the love duel. Lastly, it might explain why 1986 is such a cursed year. How about it? Am I speaking nonsense, or does anyone care to take this line of thought further?
No, I think he never exited in reality. In the world where Yasu falls off the cliff, I believe an accident occurs causing their gender to be in question, and therefore they have an internal struggle with their gender identity which creates the characters shannon and kanon. Kanon is the male personality of Yasu. Shannon is the female personality of Yasu.

If the child never falls off the cliff, we know it is Lion, whom I believe is male.
If the child falls off the cliff, it becomes female/unknown, and does not receive the name Lion.
Yasu's choice is whether to live as a female or male. Their body is not fit for love because of the accident, and that is why we get the love trial.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:35   Link #19955
Jan-Poo
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That's like the very first assumption behind shkanon that was ever made, and that's what I always assumed it was before EP6.

But somehow the more I read Umineko the less probable that theory seemed...
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:35   Link #19956
witchfan
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zorahk, I certainly hope the motive isn't a gender identity crisis. In any case, you misunderstand. It's possible to be both an aspect of Yasu's personality, and a servant in reality. The Kanon "imaginary friend" might've been created as a result of (real) Kanon's death. It might also not exist at all, except as a character in the story.

Jan-Poo, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought of this seriously here! As I mentioned, I suspect EPs 5-6 could be worlds where Kanon did not die (the 'lesser' crime, for example, could be explaind - of course Kanon would still not be present in the island... and could it explain the young male voice in EP5? Was it confirmed there were 16 people across all games? Just throwing wild guesses as I try to think this out).

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-19 at 13:50.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:57   Link #19957
Used Can
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Here's my theory. There are three important factors:

- Shannon (female side)
- Kanon (male side)
- Winchester (fallic object - i.e. a penis)

We tend to see Shannon more than what we see Kanon. In addition, whenever Kanon is shown, it's always described as if he was some sort of shadow, as if he is something that is not really there. In additon, whenever he dies, he always disappears.

We know Yasu fell from a cliff 19 years ago (or so, that's what we've been told), and it seems her body received some sort of damage which turned her body into "something that cannot love". Of course, a damaged uterus could be an explanation behind this. There may be other explanations as well, but what about a broken penis? If Yasu grew thinking of herself as a girl, but then learning she actually was born a man, but that he lost his penis, then I guess his reaction would be rather understandable.

In additon to this, in EP6 we learned that Kinzo used to shoot guns with Kanon. Why Kanon in particular? This may be a reference, or more clearly, a hint of the symbolical relationship of Kanon and the Winchesters. Moreover, if we go by the Love Duel, we can clearly tell the obvious symbolism when Kanon "lost his gun" and then "had the gun without a bullet" and thus, lost the duel. Of course, this doesn't mean that Shannon has a penis. In fact, there's no connection between her and guns or any fallic object, and thus, a penis. So, in absence of a penis, Yasu, as Shannon, decided to live as a woman, since, perhaps, with surgery and constant injection of estrogens, something could be done about her condition.

Other possible references would be Kanon being the one who told Moetrice how to become Beatrice, or why Beatrice is always smoking a "pipe". In fact, Kanon constant enmity toward Beatrice could be a sign of Kanon's bitternes of his lost manliness.

Simply by the existence of the guns and Kanon's apparent ethereal nature, this level of reasoning is possible for Used Can. ......What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:02   Link #19958
witchfan
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I think your theory gives us a whole new outlook on "Without love, it cannot be seen".
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:08   Link #19959
Cao Ni Ma
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Jan-Poo, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought of this seriously here! As I mentioned, I suspect EPs 5-6 could be worlds where Kanon did not die (the 'lesser' crime, for example, could be explaind - of course Kanon would still not be present in the island... and could it explain the young male voice in EP5? Was it confirmed there were 16 people across all games? Just throwing wild guesses as I try to think this out).
If we trust Erika as the detective in EP5 then there are 18 people in that game as they all are in the same room, including Shannon and Kanon. Of course RK07 probably covered his ass by making Lamda the GM of the game so we can't be sure if it applies to Beatrice's , Battler's or Bern's (or whoever is the actual GM of EP7 is) games.

e- Also its stated in red, the number in the island is equal the the amount of people in the room at the time.
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:54   Link #19960
loctar87
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If we trust Erika as the detective in EP5 then there are 18 people in that game as they all are in the same room, including Shannon and Kanon. Of course RK07 probably covered his ass by making Lamda the GM of the game so we can't be sure if it applies to Beatrice's , Battler's or Bern's (or whoever is the actual GM of EP7 is) games.

e- Also its stated in red, the number in the island is equal the the amount of people in the room at the time.
Except that at that time we were seeing through Battler's eyes, and he is not the detective in that game. Erika comes into the room, and Battler sees Shannon behind her. Then the scene cuts off. It's just a trick to confuse the number of people. Same thing happened when he saw Kinzo. If Erika's not looking, magic is allowed, even if she's in the room.
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