2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I think if it was an establishment president challenging an election, you would have the FBI breaching doors everywhere with an army of lawyers behind them, in order to find the evidence. That is in the rare case where such a challenge is actually needed. The rules would have been adjusted to favor the incumbent way before the election took place, and they would have beat Biden easily.

When it's President Trump, though, you have Giuliani and Powell peddling wild conspiracy theories in alternative media, and some scuffed crowdsourced lawsuits that judges can simply refuse to hear.

It seems like his failure was relying on the GOP too much as a populist. What he needed was more independent loyalists inside the bureaucracy, though that's a pretty tall order.

Even the famous 200+ Trump appointed judges and 3 SCOTUS picks, are actually all Federalist Society people from McConnell's address book. Of course they are not going to have Trump's back.

Yeah, it's totally because people aren't loyal to him and not that he has absolutely zero reasonable cause for claiming fraud beyond his own ego.

The reason an "establishment president" would get that kind of reaction is because they wouldn't go around tossing fraud allegations without actual cause.

Not everything is an anti-Trump conspiracy.

[Guardian Enzo]

Rudy has filed to stop certification of the results for the Senate election in PA. There was no Senate election in PA this year.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Meanwhile Trump plans to campaign for the Republican candidates in the Georgia run-off elections. Republicans in the state are worried that Trump's constant refrains about how the election was "rigged" will discourage his supporters from voting in the January 5th run-offs.

By now, it’s been widely established that President Trump’s nonstop lies about the election being stolen from him have created a potential problem for Republicans. If GOP voters believe the system is rigged, why would they turn out to vote in the two runoffs in Georgia that will decide control of the Senate?

In a new turn in this ugly saga, Georgia Republicans are now actively pleading with Trump to put an end to this problem for them. But what’s even more darkly absurd is how they’re going about doing this: They apparently do not believe that they themselves can explain to voters that the voting was actually legitimate in their own state — until Trump gives them permission to do so.

Neither Loeffler nor Perdue has conceded that Trump lost the election. But this is creating a problem for them, because they want to sell their candidacies to Republican voters as a check on a Joe Biden presidency.

The rub is that they can’t really do this. Why? Because they’re not allowed to so much as hint that Biden might have won the election, because that angers Trump voters.

GOP strategist Liam Donovan recently got to the core of the problem: Untold numbers of Trump voters trust him more than they trust Republicans. When Trump tells them the election was stolen, they not only believe it; they also think GOP leaders will betray them on this point as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...s-prison-lies/ (may be paywalled)

Can we say "hoist on your own petard?"

[Sheba]

Who will be fired via twitter by The God-Emperor Of Mankind Diapers Don?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/p...020/index.html

[Jaden]

I admire the audacity!

https://t.co/PSGDiRRAg0?amp=1

[OH&S]

A lawyer's analysis on the current state of Trump lawsuits:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/v-nblE8ps2M

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[The Green One]

Rudy was so sure watching that marathon of Law and Order taught him everything about being a lawyer.....

Well I wonder how many will be begging Trump for pardons these final days..........

[Key Board]

U.S. Attorney General William Barr said the Justice Department had found no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the presidential election

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1...997003776?s=20

I didn't expect Barr to announce this. Which makes me think that maybe the GOP intends to prevent a Trump dynasty or potential third party.
They're done appeasing him, and they're letting him go to jail after this.

//

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Key Board

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1...997003776?s=20

I didn't expect Barr to announce this. Which makes me think that maybe the GOP intends to prevent a Trump dynasty or potential third party.
They're done appeasing him, and they're letting him go to jail after this.

//

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Key Board

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1...997003776?s=20

I didn't expect Barr to announce this. Which makes me think that maybe the GOP intends to prevent a Trump dynasty or potential third party.
They're done appeasing him, and they're letting him go to jail after this.

//

Maybe Barr did find fraud but it was Trump supporters who did it. So he is trying to sweep it under the rug before others find out

[SeijiSensei]

I think it's an indication of how isolated Trump has become since the election. His inner circle now consists of just cronies and sycophants. While most other Republicans dance around the fact that Trump lost, few of them are coming to his aid.

Still, you can't get much more hypocritical than Wisconsin Republican Senator Ron Johnson: https://thebulwark.com/my-call-with-...wont-admit-it/

The TL;DR of the call was this: Senator Johnson knows that Joe Biden won a free and fair election. He is refusing to admit it publicly and stoking conspiracies that undermine our democracy solely because it would be “political suicide” to oppose Trump.

Meanwhile Trump attorneys Lin Wood and Sidney Powell held a rally today where they told Republicans not to vote for either Loeffler or Perdue in the upcoming Georgia run-offs unless they demand that the governor of Georgia recall the state legislature into special session to negate Biden's victory in the state.

https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/s...27769115484161

I can't tell if the attorneys are truly deranged or just collecting on those billable hours.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Meanwhile Trump attorneys Lin Wood and Sidney Powell ....

Those two are the worst I've heard on this matter, and I'm one of the people that think there was actually widespread fraud.

Lin Wood is the lawyer of Kyle Rittenhouse, while Sidney Powell represents Michael Flynn. Neither have any experience in election law. I don't think they were even hired by the Trump campaign - they just inserted themselves, and basically crowdsourced their money from conspiracy theorists.

I'd rate most of their claims are QAnon tier, and it's the type of stuff that really doesn't help their case right now, even if there was some kernel of truth. Even Giuliani is doing a better job than they are.

[Johnny Dy]

I initially thought that waiting 2 months to enable the elect president is simply wrong, but after I see this month we're just getting ourselves into, there might be something there. It might be even brilliant theoretically, to put a full December in between elections and instalment, it's the month for family time, forgiveness and happiness (as much as can be had) so after spending time with family, there's much less chances for war or conflict and much more for accepting one's faith and think about what's important in life except power, even for Trump. (even with that family)

[Sheba]

I have yet to see any substantial proof of fraud. "Might" and "would do it" dont count.

[mangamuscle]

*Gendo Ikari pose*

Let's talk about the stinking elephant in the room. The GOP at large isn't backing up trump on his narrative that the election was rigged because they got numerous wins across the board (that one week before the election seemed unlikely). But that does not mean that if in two years they lose "bigly" they wont give in to using state level legislatures to grant them wins where they lost at the ballot box.

[The Green One]

The GOP at large cower and offer empty words because they don't want Trump to target them in a tantrum because he compulsively retaliates against anyone who goes against him.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Johnny Dy

I initially thought that waiting 2 months to enable the elect president is simply wrong, but after I see this month we're just getting ourselves into, there might be something there.

Yes, it gives the outgoing President time to muck with the institutions of government and serve up a mess to his successor.

I much prefer the British model where the moving vans arrive at 10 Downing Street the morning after the Prime Minister loses an election.

Much of the timing of events in the American electoral calendar derive from historical periods where travel was much more difficult than today. It's ridiculous to continue those same institutions when lawmakers can get on a plane and be in DC in a few hours.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Those two are the worst I've heard on this matter, and I'm one of the people that think there was actually widespread fraud.

Lin Wood is the lawyer of Kyle Rittenhouse, while Sidney Powell represents Michael Flynn. Neither have any experience in election law. I don't think they were even hired by the Trump campaign - they just inserted themselves, and basically crowdsourced their money from conspiracy theorists.

I'd rate most of their claims are QAnon tier, and it's the type of stuff that really doesn't help their case right now, even if there was some kernel of truth. Even Giuliani is doing a better job than they are.

There is a certain irony here calling Wood's and Powell's claims QAnon nonsense while believing widespread fraud was present in this election without having any evidence.

[Jaden]

Hard evidence may be a standard to get certain relief in court, but it's not like that applies for every single thing we believe in. For me, the statistical anomalies are enough in this case.

I personally draw the line for reasonable beliefs based on something like Occam's razor. The claims of Wood&Powell are unreasonable, because they try to connect too many dots and draw some kind of grand narrative where it's not necessary. They also make too many factual errors. Also, they're lawyers, whose primary work should not be in the court of public opinion, so they should hold themselves to a higher standard and not make such claims even if they believe in them.

Also, on another topic, I'm a bit conflicted about the signature verification that republicans are now demanding. Sure, it could be a good way to discover fraud - but it could also be a way to change legitimate results to their liking, and it's been used for that in the past.

The devil is in the details. If I were to scrutinize hard enough, I could decide that none of the signatures are good enough for my liking. That's why the standards for such things should be set before elections, and should be stuck with after. Even if they were bad standards.

Partly because of that dilemma, I don't expect any state's results to be changed due to anything with the signatures. At best they might be able to change the rules for subsequent elections.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Hard evidence may be a standard to get certain relief in court, but it's not like that applies for every single thing we believe in. For me, the statistical anomalies are enough in this case.

That's just an attempt to legitimize conspiracy theories. Beliefs are nothing more than speculation without evidence and absolutely worthless until proven. Surely you haven't overlooked the fact that Trump's lawyers have yet to present a single piece of evidence towards their/your theory of widespread voter fraud in any of their about three dozen court cases. I don't know which "statistical anomalies" you're referring to but likely they exist because some counties don't allow processing mail-in votes, which unsurprisingly have overwhelmingly gone towards Biden, until election day. GOP senators are now complaining about large amounts of late vote shifts but guess who put enforced these rules in the first place? Exactly.