2014-05-29, 02:56 | Link #34481 | ||||
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First of all, there are only two guns, Hideyoshi's and Rudolph's. Hideyoshi hands his gone over to Kyrie because he is going to push the food cart. So they were trying to get food, but we know that it never was about getting food, so that should be a lie. Also, after the Chiesters attack Rudolph and Kyrie and Beatrice reprimands Eva-Beato, Hideyoshi is suddenly holding a gun again, standing amongst the carnage. It probably really was very confusing and fast, with Hideyoshi acting on impulse more than cold-blooded thoughts...yet, we have to consider these are stories, so more on that now: Quote:
So, we know that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo but modelled after her tales. This made me think again, with current knowledge, and especially the moment right before the game is suspended struck me as odd or maybe meaningful. So, on a meta-level BATTLER is disgusted by the deeds of BEATRICE that are carried out by Eva-Beato from the 2nd twilight onwards. So as a way to mend their relationship, BEATRICE attempts to intervene by acting as Beatrice on the gameboard and either mending the horrors committed by Eva-Beato or at least giving them a sweeter taste. She is especially shown trying to give George and Jessica a happy end with Shannon and Kanon respectively, with Eva-Beato intruding on these. She does that, claiming that she is the New Beatrice and insults her "sendaisama", literally, "The Last Generation" as an old hag that has nothing to say anymore since Eva-Beato is now in possession of all the magic. Now that reminded me of something that Eva-Beato said in EP8 (don't know if only manga or also VN), which is that she is the Beatrice of 1986 to 1998 and that all of the island belongs to her, also that she wants to spin countless Eva-culprit theories that are more horrible than any other. That made me think further. Back to EP3, this is when Eva-Beato tries to kill Beato but, while able to destroy her body, is unable to defeat her golden heart. By now we know that the heart of Beatrice's stories is a central symbol of Sayo's message, her attempts and her pleads towards the outside world, so what does that scene tell us. Ronove says that in the moment Beatrice's Golden Heart shone, she became the true Endless Witch Beatrice and that Eva-Beato lost all her powers. Then, when Eva-Beato tries to stomp on Beato's now powerless and battered heart to destroy it completely, Battler intervenes and says that her battle is with him and that she is the true villain of this piece. This made me think that EP3 and Eva-Beato is less about the story of Eva becoming a culprit, but of how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 and what that means for the narrative of Sayo's tales. Why does Young-Eva become Eva-Beato in that strange ceremony in the gold room? Let's look at this story not as an actual event, but a theory from the perspective of post-1986 and the perspectives of Tohya and Ange: In post-1986 Eva did survive and she carried both the ring and succeeded the family, so she was assumed the culprit. At the same time, a being called Beatrice is claimed to be the culprit. So Eva-Beato is the Beatrice of these ideas, not Sayo's Beatrice, that was driven by emotion and a desire to be accepted and found, but the future world's Eva-Beatrice, that was driven by a lust for vengence, blood and carnage. Eva-Beato in that sense is not Eva, she is the Beatrice of a world in which Eva is the culprit, a world that especially Ange wants to see. And that is exactly what drives BATTLER and by connection Tohya into this corner. |
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2014-05-29, 18:05 | Link #34483 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
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As a person who does not like admitting that they are wrong X( It bothers me that Eva killed Kratushi. If you apply the wolf and sheep puzzle, it would require two other accomplices to do it. She also could have just used a shotgun to kill them both (hypothetically, she would have to in order to apply a stake anyway). Well, the same (shotgun and wolf and sheep) could be said for Maria and Rosa's murders. Will mentions "The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" in EP7, and I guess that Eva counts as the 'obvious culprit'.
The whole wolf and sheep rule is not one that necessarily applies (which it supposedly does with Battler's death), you have think from both sides of the equation (e.g. One sheep was actually a wolf in sheep's clothing). As for Haguruma's mentioning of Eva Beatrice culprit theory catching on: I kind of agree. AuraTwilight mentions that Beatrice would be taking the fall for someone else and I went on to believe that as symbolism of Beatrice as a 'rule' that Eva-Beatrice would subsequently follow.
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2014-05-29, 18:59 | Link #34484 | |||||
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Oh, okay. I've asked because I saw someone translating it as: "Hideyoshi is suspected. At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed." Quote:
I mean... she looks wise enough to know if they own a gun each things can get ugly for her and Rudolf too. Also the manga makes clear Kyrie had a gun and Rudolf is lying too far from Kyrie for her to take it from him. Quote:
It should have love as Meta speaking it was written by Beato therefore the rule epitaph solved=murders stop should hold true. I'm not sure Eva-Beatrice counts as a Meta character or she's just, like Erika, a piece dragged in the meta room, and even if Battler challenged her, she's just subjected to her master in truth, regardless of her liking it or not and could kill Beatrice on the board merely because that was the plot Beatrice devised so as to trick Battler who can't really differenziate between piece Beatrice and Meta Beatrice (we can clearly see in Ep 5 they're different). Undoubtely part of the author's intent here is to depict that something went wrong with the plan. Regardless of the fact that the epitaph was solved or Eva was bribed with the promise of being handed the solution Rosa's murder seems more incidental than planned (pushing her against the fence doesn't really look like the best, safest, murdering strategy) and apparently Hideyoshi ended up alone with Rudolf and Kyrie on Kyrie's prompting and not due to his own planning. Kyrie also ended up suspecting of him for a mistake he made. Considering the author is Tohya he might be trying to deliver a message about Prime, about how things went wrong but actually didn't follow a plan. But in all this speculation we still have piece Shannon/Kanon deciding to insist this is the work of a witch and killing 2 people (George and Nanjo) and we aren't sure if Jessica was just hidden or was also killed. As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved. Of course magically speaking we can say it's not Beatrice who's doing the killing but Eva-Beatrice but... does this work to excuse piece Sayo from actually killing for her own agenda whatever that can be? I'm not sure, it could, it could not. It can entirely be that the whole story is about how the Eva-culprit theory started post-1986 but the problem is that PieceYasu's actions remain unconnected. I could accept it as her becoming Eva's servant of some sort as she said she would serve whoever solved the epitaph but I doubt Eva wanted George dead and Sayo really seems to act not in accord with Eva. So... I'll admit I'm confuse. I can accept the murders being played out as presented by the manga but I can't see the logic behind Sayo's action. I hope future bits will clear up this further. |
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2014-05-30, 08:37 | Link #34485 | |||||
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From a narrative standpoint of the meta-plane gameboards aren't written, they are laid out by the GM and then unfold according to how the players progress. In that sense, Eva-Beato in EP3 is very similar to Will in EP7. She is given a certain amount of creative freedom by the GM Beato (as did Bern with Will in 7) but the GM can still call the shots, as Beato did in the very end when she destroyed Eva-Beato. Quote:
Regarding that Eva-Beato said something very important when Beato reminded her that her acting careless will scare off Battler's will to engage in the game: "Then that has to do with a world that is no concern of mine! [...] My Predecessor? I am already a witch! Different from you, who can't be a witch without being accepted by some game oponent from another world, I am a witch with magical powers without ever being accepted!" EP3 does not unfold with the purpose of proving that someone is a witch, but showing how a presupposed witch acts. Remember what Eva was called in the tabloids? "The witch of Rokkenjima"! Quote:
We know from CotGW that Sayo's favourite locked room was the one that featured in EP3, which was supposed to be Land of the Golden Witch. So on a meta-meta-level we could even say that Ikuko took this idea and formed a new story out of it, so her Eva-culprit-theory became the intruder Eva-Beato on an already existing gameboard. As she kills, and she clearly does so on purpose (shooting George and Nanjo doesn't really look like an accident) she hadn't stopped killing therefore the epitaph shouldn't be solved. Quote:
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2014-05-30, 21:50 | Link #34486 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also, Beatrice fully acnowledge game 3 as her own and asks Will to solve it while she won't care about having the solution of Ep 5 which was created by Lambda. All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it. We also saw that for the trial in Ep 5 PieceBeato could 'join the meta' even though she didn't become MetaBeato so I guess the same might have happened to Eva-Beatrice when MetaBattler challenged her. Quote:
I'll say the one who has not the power to stop her is PieceBeatrice not MetaBeatrice. Tohya might have modelled Eva on the Eva he knew from tabloids but that's a matter regarding Prime. Quote:
It's possible Ikuko found Land and plagiarized it (after all she had found confession and we were never told about its existence while at least Land gets mentioned so it makes sense Ikuko and Tohya knows about it existing) but I'll say Tohya still have a hand in it. Ikuko didn't seem confident to share her works with others before he came into play... though yes, it can also be Banquet is actually the tale she handed to Battler/Tohya when he was in the hospital and he didn't manage to connect things but later fixed it and they released it? I guess we need more info? Quote:
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2014-06-02, 08:48 | Link #34487 | ||||
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In some regards we seem to have a completely different reading of several elements within Umineko...though I admit it's kinda fun that even years later we can still have discussions like this.
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More than proving that it is Beato who is still leading the game, she entered a pact with somebody who was a clear threat to her ambition but of course for the reason of making Battler want to trust her over a worse option. And here I think it is where we have to seperate meta-story from meta-meaning. There is no Beato who tries a strategy on Battler in order to lure him into accepting her, that is the meta-plot that moves parallel to the 1986 and the 1998 plot. It's basically the 1986-reading of the events proposed by Sayo, winning out because both the horribleness and the impossibility of the 1986-1998-reading proposed by society. Quote:
All this seems to point out she was in charge of Ep 3, even if Eva-Beatrice might have been a piece that ended up moving in a way that was different from how she planned it. Quote:
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One of the big things I am proposing is, and I don't know if that got across, is that MetaBeato is not Sayo and is basically not even Sayo's Beatrice, she is the Hachijo's (mainly Tohya's) Beatrice. There is a very central scene in EP4 where PieceBeato enters back from the balcony after Battler showed incapable of solving her riddle, then the two Beatrice's (meta and fiction) face each other and MetaBeatrice tells her that she can rest now and she will take over from here. Yes, on the one hand this shows that this is the point where Shannon decided to let it all go and let everybody die, on the other hand the event goes on to MetaBeato wanting to discard the game altogether. Why would this have any relevance if this was merely Sayo's intent, since Battler/Tohya cannot be further influenced by an action that Sayo (who is likely dead) would take. |
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2014-06-02, 16:25 | Link #34488 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Beatrice of Ep 5 seems a single character but part of her she stands in for Natsuhi's fantasies, part of her works to offer a cover up for the man of 19 years ago's plan (the letter, the corpses disapeparing) and a part might work to support the fantasy-meta theme (Beatrice interacting with Battler, jumping in his arms, remembering the past games or despairing over how he doesn't remember his promise surely doesn't fit Natsuhi's Beatrice but likely not even the man of 19 years ago's Beatrice as he can't have awareness of the previous boards and apparently is more focused in revenge than in Battler). Ultimately though, although Beatrice has apparently some freedom of action (it's Beatrice's party who handed Battler the ring and supposedly caused the corpses to disappear according to the magic narrative... and Beatrice will go so far as to claim she even killed the servant and caused the baby's fall) and even speaks up at the trial, she's just... a magic explanation, a fantasy character that doesn't reperesent a single person but various stuffs. For me Eva-Beatrice's situation is similar. She stands in as a magic explanation for various stuffs, implying Eva's involvement in some of them in a rather obvious way but, at the same time, not necessarily being Eva or even someone in control. She's just 'the culprit' in some facts, same as Beatrice claimed to be in Ep 5. If however we wonder on a Prime angle on why Eva-Beatrice exists, likely it is because in Tohya's world the culprit isn't Sayo with her Beatrice but Eva. If they think that there's someone behind those mysterious happenings they think it was Eva pretending to be Beatrice, not someone else. Ep 3 was probably structured to create a let's call it 'Sayo's game board' that however would work with the truths and beliefs of Prime. If we look at Ep 3 carefully in a way it resembles Ep 7 Teaparty. In Ep 7 Teaparty Eva kills a person by mistake (Natsuhi) and in Ep 3 Rosa's murder was likely not planned. Then there's another murder due to the reaction of this person at the first murder (Krauss attacked Eva who killed Natsuhi, Maria made too much noise when her mother was killed by Eva). The following murder takes place after a debate over Eva (and Hideyoshi) killing on purpose or by mistake Natsuhi and Krauss in the Teaparty and over Kyrie suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi to be the one who murdered Rosa. We've a person shoot that she didn't die and therefore got her chance to shoot as well (Kyrie, although she'll die later on in Ep 3 and Eva in the Teaparty). We've 2 murders done likely out of the suspicions the others were responsible of murdering someone else (likely Eva though Natsuhi and Krauss were responsible for Hideyoshi's death and in the Teaparty she was sure Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits). Then we've the murders of the servants and of George and Jessica of whom Eva knows nothing about and can only speculate on who killed them. In short in a way both settings have similar elements even if the background is pretty different. Quote:
(On a sidenote I can't say I exactly loved the idea to introduce Clair as another identity for Sayo but I'm toying with the idea that Clair isn't exacly Sayo but more the personification of 'Confession of the Golden Witch' so she works as Narrator. The petals scattering when Will hit her might be a poetic way to name the piece of papers on which the confession was written... not that I expect the manga to confirm this) Quote:
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The whole 'I'll clean up for you' might merely be a reference to how everything will be covered up by 'Beatrice's magic' so that Beatrice will look like the culprit and not Sayo. 'Beatrice's magic' will also be what will 'magically' kill Battler (the bomb). On a sidenote I really enjoy discussing Umineko with you so thank you for giving me the possibility to theorize more! |
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2014-06-03, 08:29 | Link #34489 | ||||||
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I really enjoy the discussion too. It gives me a little bit time to relax and let of steam, since none of my Japanese friends has actually caught up to EP8 in the manga so far...since it was me who actually got them to read it in the first place
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Having reread it today, I would say that EP4 is inherently different from EP1 and 2 as well though, since it basically centralizes the plot of the family head Ushiromiya "Goldsmith" Lion and not that of Sayo/Beatrice. On the island plot we are introduced this time to an acting "Kinzo" who decides to sacrifice his whole family in order to "give back all that he owns in return for Beatrice". The idea of "being stopped" is only introduced at the very end when a human Beatrice (not necessarily the witch) and Battler encounter and she demands him remembering his promise and atoning for his sin. This is basically the story of the side of Sayo that has already given up hope for survival and only wants a last bit of gratification before her great family suicide. Quote:
Remember what Black-Battler said in Forgery No.xxx, he exists because of the many people who long for an explanation in which Ushiromiya Battler is the murderer. Eva-Beato to me is similar, she is an amalgamation of Eva-culprit-theories given shape. Quote:
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Sadly these two pages (1 and 2) had a horrible translation done to them... It should actually be: "Try and stop me (Beatrice's form of me, warawa)! - If you just hadn't returned! - I never wanted to be born! - Can't I love anybody? - Please, whatever the outcome may be, at least in my stories... - ...kill me (Simple form of me also used by Shannon, watashi) - and if not that - you should die!" What MetaBeato from EP1-5 likely is, is the lingering regret and the sadness of Sayo, kept alive by Tohya's feelings of guilt and him having been unable to do anything. This is for me also why MetaBattler (after he understands) becomes first so intent on giving Beato the happy ending she deserved (by trying to revive her and marry her in EP6) and also gave her eternal rest in EP7. Oh and concerning a former question that was raised by you I think, I had another look at the EP7 manga and it appears like the order of murders in EP4 is actually supposed to be: Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, the 5 adults in the dining hall, George, Gohda and Kumasawa, Jessica, Maria, and finally Genji. |
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2014-06-04, 05:05 | Link #34490 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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just a quick question according to the the wikia page the witches and furniture where made up character/imaginary friend created by maria and sayo...does that mean none of the witches and furniture exist at all?? but then the whole ange/bern thing doesnt make sense....or is that part of the story battler created about witches existing? i dunno im kinda confused on the whole meta world and the existance of the witches/states of purgatory
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2014-06-04, 07:20 | Link #34491 | |
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As I said, this is according to my personal understanding: To understand the nature of the witches and demons sorrounding Rokkenjima, we have to question where they stem from. Did Beatrice really start with Sayo imagining her, or didn't it already start with the stories Kinzo and his servants told?! The character of Beatrice has, so to speak, taken on a life of her own, far beyond the confines of one persons imagination, and thus, in a certain way, "exists". The same goes for Sayo and Maria's magical group of friends, Marriage Sorciere, which later took on darker sides in Sayo's message bottle stories. Since these stories (at least two of them) got spread and copied, and new stories involving them were forged, the characters started "existing" beyond the borders of just her stories. The question gets a lot more difficult when it comes to Bern, Lambda, or Featherine, since these "Voyagers" and "Theatergoers" exist beyond the confines of one specific gameboard. They are not bound to the catbox that is Rokkenjima. There are two ways I can see them. One is the overarching purpose to portray larger "rules" and "ways of thinking", like Bern governing "miracles" and standing in for those who "love to heartlessly rip stories to shreds until only guts remain". This would make Ange's story highly allegorical. The other is them actually existing, but having no larger influence unto the plane of human existence beyond slightly nudging people in certain directions. In that sense they'd still be a metaphor for authors and readers, basically us, the people with no emotional attachment to the stories we observe. EDIT: Since I apparently never added the full translation of chapter 24 (and got my hands on a cheap copy of the February issue of Joker, which will bring us the Interlude chapter as well), I decided to mend that and put the translation for that up for now. Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:
Last edited by haguruma; 2014-06-05 at 05:00. |
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2014-06-05, 16:55 | Link #34492 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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( Hello, I come out of lurking!)
I just want to share something that I was just working on. It involves the bit with the Book of One Truth, well...the part where it starts telling Ange the truth that is. I don't know if the number of X's in the text are relevant and if they aren't, just let me know. The culprits name is comprised of 5 letters, their partner is comprised of 7 letters. Those with 5 letters in their names are: Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:
And those with 7 letters in their names are: Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:
But there is only one in each list that have actually been included in the planning of Sayo's stories... So filling in the blanks and guessing that the truth-in-question is saying about what really happened in the Gold Room and the after-effects. Spoiler for Book of one truth spoilers:
Of course that's just one variation of the outcomes. Last edited by Becca-chan; 2014-06-05 at 17:06. Reason: Adding more in. |
2014-06-06, 17:48 | Link #34494 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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this is so confusing! its okay if you spoil it to me haha i looked at wiki about the ending and such expecially after looking at the manga about ange diving to her death after learning the truth because i was like wtf that cant just end it off like that... another question...i kinda looked that ps3 ending dialogues and it was like battler meet everyone at the end...was this kinda like saying battler passed away?! i dunno kinda confused :S |
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2014-06-06, 20:07 | Link #34495 |
The True Culprit
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Basically, the Meta-World seems to be a plane of existence where imaginary things are true. Who can speak on where Bern and Lambda came from, but they've been around a lot longer. Beatrice and her furniture are imaginary concepts created on Rokkenjima, but at the same time they exist in the Meta-World, and might have always been there. At the same time, the written stories and gameboards of Rokkenjima exist as alternate universes there.
The Meta-World basically seems to be a place where everything is real and nothing is fiction.
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2014-06-07, 14:21 | Link #34496 | |
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I was pretty freaked out when I was trying to come up with those variations. Maria as the culprit...as if she couldn't be creepy already. |
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2014-06-09, 06:30 | Link #34497 | |
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In the Japanese version it is **が犯人ッ!! **がッ***がッ**を殺したッ!**を**を**を***をッ!!!, which means the culprit has two Kanji (戦人、霧江、絵羽、秀吉、譲治、蔵臼、夏妃、楼座、紗音、観音、金蔵、源次、南條、熊沢、郷田 ), and one person with two Kanji and one person with three (留弗夫、朱志香、真里亞) Kanji killed a person with two, another three with two and one with three Kanji. On another note, I got the February issue of Joker and the Interlude chapter in my mail yesterday. The chapter isn't that long and there's not that much new content that I'd rank it as interesting as CotGW or the last few main chapters, but it still delivers a good idea what life was like for the Hachijôs and an approximate indication of time scales. Spoiler for EP8 Interlude:
From what it sounds and looks like, I'd say that Tôya lived with Ikuko quite a while before the topic of Rokkenjima even came up. The way the chapter depicts Ikuko also makes it fairly unlikely that she is Sayo...or Sayo has an actual problem with multiple personalities (or is the biggest dick in the world to everybody including herself). I mean, why would she spent YEARS with the person she loves, make him a completely new person, only to spring the incident on him almost a decade later. I'd say the events sorrounding the uncorking of CotGW don't happen until around 1993-95 for several factors. The chapter depicts a long line of scene-to-scene panels, depicting Ikuko and Tôya growing close over an extended period of time, the internet-article clearly mentions the inheritance towards Ange and Eva's death (which apparently only became a central thing when Ange was already in her teens), also internet itself only became a thing in the early 90s and wasn't commonly available until the mid 90s in Japan. I also find it interesting how Tôya faints before he can apparently read CotGW and that only Ikuko has read it at that point. |
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2014-06-09, 14:45 | Link #34498 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 33
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First time poster, long time lurker.
Upon reading this part I thought it was incredibly interesting Quote:
This is especially odd, when judging by the narrative it looks like to confession bottle hasn't been opened yet (assuming she was going to open it with Tohya. Without the images it's hard to tell.) Quote:
Incidentally, as my 2nd post here, I wanted to thank you for bringing us up to date with manga translations, I'm sure everybody greatly appreciates it. Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-09 at 15:43. |
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2014-06-09, 20:15 | Link #34499 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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I seem to have fallen behind on the out-of-VN canon... So I've read the games and various TIP translations, but does someone have a list of the other canon works like this "CotGW"? Or are these mostly just from the manga?
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2014-06-09, 20:38 | Link #34500 | ||
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I found that interesting as I said, since Tôya faints without having read the confession (as it seems) and without completely remembering Ange (but having flashes when reading her name in internet articles). So if we wanted to place a point where the meta-Beatrice of the first few games started, that could be here. Quote:
Confession of the Golden Witch (CotGW) is a bonus-story which ran in the March till May issue of GANGAN-Joker and showed the whole content of Sayo's confession found by Ikuko in the Interlude chapter. You can find links to my translation posts on the current last page of the manga thread. |
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