[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Renall]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

I don't get why why people need to make Kanon fiction-only. It doesn't make Shkanontrice less ridicule, Yasu still has to pass as Kanon in the stories!

Yasu need not even exist in the stories. That is, she can make Shannon be Kanon or not be Kanon if she really feels like it. She can have Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice stomping around. She can do whatever she wants; it's a story, and they're her characters.

Now you can argue "there is a disguise, but it applies only to the fiction; Yasu never paraded around posing as two different servants, but did in a story." I will grudgingly acknowledge the plausibility of this one. I mean, it is a mystery story she's writing.

But R-Prime disguise shenanigans? Come on.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

The real question would be who went to Jessica's school festival with her, as this is the sole point at which Kanon is ever depicted off Rokkenjima.

I think a disguise there is actually plausible. She'd only have to fool people who probably barely ever seen her for a few hours, and Jessica definitely has a motive to make it appear that she has a boyfriend. I don't think it would be hugely unlikely that Shannon/ Yasu would agree to assist.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying Yasu attempted to use to fool people at home or at R-Prime. Although it could've contributed to her mental image of Kanon as a persona, if he existed before then.,

[Thanatos of Crows]

Yasu need not even exist in the stories. That is, she can make Shannon be Kanon or not be Kanon if she really feels like it. She can have Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice stomping around. She can do whatever she wants; it's a story, and they're her characters.

As long as she keeps up with the rules she's created -the red text- like, say, the number of people on the island (and then we have Touya throwing in her own characters and revising the rules (ep.6 text about Erika's existense on the island).

Again, what calls are you talking about? If you're referencing the EP5 calls Natsuhi got, well duh. They only happened in EP5.

The one (or as some imply those calls) that was discussed earlier, in ep 1 the Maria singing call. Remember, the theory was that the child told Natsuhi what to do by the phone, and it's been shown as ridiculous already (no resistance in giving Battler the phone, the child's role not existing)

Does it really matter, so long as the idea of an illegitimate Ushiromiya spawn is running around?

Two different theories, Kinzo and Beatrice's child idea and sinful baby killer Natsuhi idea aren't directly connected in tha way that the mystery can be solved without knowing what Natsuhi did. I have no idea why you're mixing them to try and defy my claim. I'll just drop the subject before someone gets irritated at us.

Your argument basically breaks down, "Ah, yes, you can deduce that a blade was used to kill the victims, but can you tell me THE COLOR OF THE HANDLE?"

Actually my argument was that the way you're trying to solve it is by saying the murder weapon had a green handle "BECAUSE EP5 SAID SO!!!", which, as you probably realize, is irrelevant.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yasu need not even exist in the stories. That is, she can make Shannon be Kanon or not be Kanon if she really feels like it. She can have Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice stomping around. She can do whatever she wants; it's a story, and they're her characters.

Actually, I wonder if even 'Yasu' exists. I always thought that it was a name Bernkastel made up for some kind of original persona or person that she felt was there behind the scenes. And that 'Yasu' was just an arbitrary name she had to give to this person in order to bring her out for her story in EP7.

Basically Yasu's introduction, in light of that "Hanin ha Yasu (The culprit is Yasu)" meme felt like a total, "LOL culprit" move by her...

So she's always felt like a kind of fake culprit to me. One that Bernkastel pinned everything on for the sake of convenience.

Most of us on this message board know about that meme, but I think there are still some people not aware it yet, and then it may seem like Yasu is a real name...



By the way, about Kanon not existing... I've often thought along the lines of this: I remember watching a movie about the development of the Canadian Avro Arrow in the 60's, starring Dan Aykroyd. And there was this cute female engineer that was part of the cast. When I got to the end of the movie, they indicated that she wasn't a real person but was an amalgam of all the other female engineers in real life who worked on the project!

And I guess that's what the idea of Shannon and/or Kanon existing in fiction but not in Rokkenjima could mean. An amalgamation of some other people... or it could simply be that they weren't there that day but the fiction placed them there on purpose. Or something....

[AuraTwilight]

The one (or as some imply those calls) that was discussed earlier, in ep 1 the Maria singing call. Remember, the theory was that the child told Natsuhi what to do by the phone, and it's been shown as ridiculous already (no resistance in giving Battler the phone, the child's role not existing)

I haven't seen anyone theorize that those calls were Yasu instructing Natsuhi except for you, I apologize.

Besides, such an event had many better opportunities to happen, like the multiple times Natsuhi was alone.

Two different theories, Kinzo and Beatrice's child idea and sinful baby killer Natsuhi idea aren't directly connected in tha way that the mystery can be solved without knowing what Natsuhi did. I have no idea why you're mixing them to try and defy my claim. I'll just drop the subject before someone gets irritated at us.

You're jumping ahead of what I'm actually saying. All I'm claiming is that an entity like Yasu (illegitimate Ushiromiya child, Kinzo's or otherwise) is legitimately hinted at and speculated over. Details like whether Natsuhi attempted infanticide or whether that child grew up pretending to be a witch in her servant life really don't fucking matter at all; they're extra details that don't directly relate to the identity of who's killing everyone.

Actually my argument was that the way you're trying to solve it is by saying the murder weapon had a green handle "BECAUSE EP5 SAID SO!!!", which, as you probably realize, is irrelevant.

That's cool. Too bad I never once said anything like that, so, again, read what I said, not what you're thinking I'm saying.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's significantly less ridiculous because it's an implicit right that the author can make the characters behave however they want; just like how Erika was given the power to boss people around or how the characters in EP7 had memories from two different universes. And the scenes you're talking about are still in the catbox, technically, since everyone involved are dead (except Kanon's visit to Jessica's school, but those girls never met Shannon so...)

If it's outside the catbox, then it's not in the catbox. And Shannon/Yasu even went to school there for years. And R07 said he wouldn't make Jessica and Kanon romance "fake". And other tons of hints about Kanon being real on the island. It completely nullifies Clair's sufferings and story.

Yasu need not even exist in the stories. That is, she can make Shannon be Kanon or not be Kanon if she really feels like it. She can have Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice stomping around. She can do whatever she wants; it's a story, and they're her characters.

No, she can't. The stories should be consistent with the setting. Otherwise, everyone can make whatever he wants.

"Plot twist, Natsuhi is actually a MAN!! I mean, it's fiction, so why not? It also explains why she couldn't conceive babies! Who cares about reality"

Now you can argue "there is a disguise, but it applies only to the fiction; Yasu never paraded around posing as two different servants, but did in a story." I will grudgingly acknowledge the plausibility of this one. I mean, it is a mystery story she's writing.

Again, why can she do that in the stories, but NOT on R-prime? If she was able to pass as Kanon in the stories, then she should be able to do that in reality as well!! Consistency, damn.

[Thanatos of Crows]

Okay, Aura, seems the problem is this: I seperate "the child from 19 years ago" from Yasu as an acted out persona to blackmail Natsuhi, while you treat them as one and the same, leading to this. I accept that "I didn't think...someone like you could have existed" can be taken as a note towards Kinzo's illegimate child -while it's also referring to a witch, as the message bottles were written to create the illusion of the witch- but not towards a person Natsuhi threw off a cliff as it has no relation to the subject at hand, so I think we actually somewhat agree. But please do read the comments with care yourself, too.

That's cool. Too bad I never once said anything like that, so, again, read what I said, not what you're thinking I'm saying.

As is probably clear by now what I meant was the talk about Natsuhi's sin getting mixed to the bastard child business, you seem to get my point nevertheless

So she's always felt like a kind of fake culprit to me. One that Bernkastel pinned everything on for the sake of convenience.

When eps 5-8 concentrate on showing how Beatrice's game works and getting us closer to the truth I see no point in fooling the reader as far as in the second to last episode. At that point we're supossed to get answers and not be told lies straight on our faces.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

Again, why can she do that in the stories, but NOT on R-prime? If she was able to pass as Kanon in the stories, then she should be able to do that in reality as well!! Consistency, damn.

When you're setting up a situation that reflects reality, you have to take probability into account. So there are limits to people's expertise and some people think it's not probable that disguises would work.

However if you're setting up a situation to reflect a mystery novel, then you can dictate how disguises were 'so good' that they always worked because people didn't notice. Probability is out the door and possibility is suddenly in.


So people are just saying it's not probable that the same methods were used in Yasu's stories vs. her real Rokkenjima Prime plan. She may have simply wrote the stories to analyze how people would react rather than if some improbable methods would succeed...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

No, she can't. The stories should be consistent with the setting. Otherwise, everyone can make whatever he wants.

"Plot twist, Natsuhi is actually a MAN!! I mean, it's fiction, so why not? It also explains why she couldn't conceive babies! Who cares about reality"

Such a story would quickly be sussed as fake. The whole point is that Kanon and Shannon appear to be such minor characters that they pass notice, and no one really knows who the Ushiromiya's servants were vs. the actual visible and public family members.

That aside, neither Shannon or Kanon behave in a manner consistent with being Yasu in the stories of ep1-4. And they almost always speak of the higher entities to themselves (presumably their creator, and also Battler) in the third person.

I'm of the opinion the author did this on purpose, as a hint to guide those to whom the message bottle stories were intended to reach (namely, Battler).

Again, why can she do that in the stories, but NOT on R-prime? If she was able to pass as Kanon in the stories, then she should be able to do that in reality as well!! Consistency, damn.

Because in a mystery story, disguises can be foolproof and shooters never miss their targets. It's a fictional conceit, and easier to swallow there than in reality. In reality, it's unlikely you could fool people like that. In a story, it's trivial; it's an expected genre convention.

[AuraTwilight]

If it's outside the catbox, then it's not in the catbox. And Shannon/Yasu even went to school there for years. And R07 said he wouldn't make Jessica and Kanon romance "fake". And other tons of hints about Kanon being real on the island. It completely nullifies Clair's sufferings and story.

You just made a whole lot of unsupported assumptions here. The catbox is more than just the two days of Rokkenjima, though it's the main part; by it's nature, it would also include every other detail of the Ushiromiya's lives that don't survive in writings or the memories of the survivors. If no one knew whether or not Jessica's asthma was real except herself, for example, it's inside a catbox.

Shannon going to school doesn't necessarily prove Rokkenjima Prime Shkanon, nor does Jessica's romance being real.

No, she can't. The stories should be consistent with the setting. Otherwise, everyone can make whatever he wants.

"Plot twist, Natsuhi is actually a MAN!! I mean, it's fiction, so why not? It also explains why she couldn't conceive babies! Who cares about reality"

Natsuhi's gender is verifiable in the real world of Rokkenjima Prime, though, so that's not a catbox detail. Otherwise, yea, it's completely fair game. The only restrictions are self-imposed ones the author puts on themself to make their story as believable and respectful as possible and, as Erika demonstrates, if the author doesn't give a shit she can just outright use what is comparable to mind control and making the Ushiromiyas act like wax mannequins.

Again, why can she do that in the stories, but NOT on R-prime? If she was able to pass as Kanon in the stories, then she should be able to do that in reality as well!! Consistency, damn.

Hey, look, I'm gonna write a story that can't happen in real life.

"AuraTwilight shoots laser beams out of his eyes and kills the culprit. This totally happened infront of a Detective or equivalent, so suck on that."

Can I actually shoot laser eye beams? No. But what the fuck can anyone do about it? There's no mystical force in the universe forcing people to pen details that are 100% accurate to how things would go on Rokkenjima Prime. It's a fictional story; as long as it's believable, anything goes. It is, by it's very nature, a series of events that did not take place, but COULD have.

Okay, Aura, seems the problem is this: I seperate "the child from 19 years ago" from Yasu as an acted out persona to blackmail Natsuhi, while you treat them as one and the same, leading to this. I accept that "I didn't think...someone like you could have existed" can be taken as a note towards Kinzo's illegimate child -while it's also referring to a witch, as the message bottles were written to create the illusion of the witch- but not towards a person Natsuhi threw off a cliff as it has no relation to the subject at hand, so I think we actually somewhat agree. But please do read the comments with care yourself, too.

Well, the "19 years ago man blackmailing Natsuhi" thing was introduced in EP5, so of course it can't be occurring in earlier episodes.

The thing is, you're going to the opposite extreme and acting as if Chiru absolutely should not be used to solve the earlier episodes; Ryukishi only said it was possible to do so, not that they couldn't help. I remind you that Battler learned The Truth with the help of Episode 5; something in it made everything click for him.

As is probably clear by now what I meant was the talk about Natsuhi's sin getting mixed to the bastard child business, you seem to get my point nevertheless

Even without the Natsuhi's sin thing, she'd probably react the same way; the family's honor, Kinzo's especially, drives her absolutely apeshit.

When eps 5-8 concentrate on showing how Beatrice's game works and getting us closer to the truth I see no point in fooling the reader as far as in the second to last episode. At that point we're supossed to get answers and not be told lies straight on our faces.

But Beatrice's game works explicitly on the basis that Beatrice (the witch) is martyring herself for the crimes of humans. The flashback into Yasu's life gives us details into why and how she created the Beatrice persona and the surrounding game, but it does not actually give us a motive for why she would kill anyone. Also note that Beatrice uses magic, so some deception is still present in Clair's play, dressing the truth in metaphors.

[Thanatos of Crows]

But the reality of a fiction is still simply fiction, so unless you were told to expect life-like events and probabilities you should be abel to stomach things you normally do in fiction. Some things Ange does in Alliance are presented in a way the would in fiction -even though they happen in the series' reality- instead of in a documentary way that strictly follows "rules" accepted as realistic.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Renall

Such a story would quickly be sussed as fake. The whole point is that Kanon and Shannon appear to be such minor characters that they pass notice, and no one really knows who the Ushiromiya's servants were vs. the actual visible and public family members.

That aside, neither Shannon or Kanon behave in a manner consistent with being Yasu in the stories of ep1-4. And they almost always speak of the higher entities to themselves (presumably their creator, and also Battler) in the third person.

I'm of the opinion the author did this on purpose, as a hint to guide those to whom the message bottle stories were intended to reach (namely, Battler).Because in a mystery story, disguises can be foolproof and shooters never miss their targets. It's a fictional conceit, and easier to swallow there than in reality. In reality, it's unlikely you could fool people like that. In a story, it's trivial; it's an expected genre convention.

Originally Posted by Episode 4

;　そして最後に黄金の魔女ベアトリーチェが蘇り、全てを黄金郷に飲み込む。……まるで、それこそが当日の 全容であるかのように記されていました。
`And in the end, the Golden Witch Beatrice revived, and everything was flung into the Golden Land. ......It was written almost as though it was a complete account of the events on that day.
;　また、当時の島の状況についても非常に詳しく描写されており、右代宮家に勤務したことがある元の使用人 たちは、間違いなく内部に詳しい人間が書いたに違いないと証言しました。」
`Also, it depicted the current situation on the island at the time in great detail, and the former servants who used to work for the Ushiromiya family gave testimony that it had definitely been written by a human who knew the inside details of the island."
;「……その、おかしな幻想小説と右代宮蔵書以降のオカルトブーム、そして、結局は真相は闇の中という３つ が合わさり、六軒島の魔女伝説を生み出したと…？」
`"......So, because of a combination of the occult boom from that strange fantasy novel and the Ushiromiya Library, and well as the fact that the truth remained shrouded in darkness, the legend of the Rokkenjima witch was born...?"
;「左様です。すでに１０年以上が経過した事件ですが、未だに世界のオカルトマニアの関心を集め ています。

I'd say that the former servants interviewed would have been in a position to notice whether or not Shannon or Kanon had worked there.

[Thanatos of Crows]

The thing is, you're going to the opposite extreme and acting as if Chiru absolutely should not be used to solve the earlier episodes; Ryukishi only said it was possible to do so, not that they couldn't help. I remind you that Battler learned The Truth with the help of Episode 5; something in it made everything click for him.

Not exactly. I said it already in another post that the Chriu episodes are meant to help us understand the truth and not hide it. In this case it just happens that the accident with Yasu is just a detail that expands the characters, as opposed to things such as confirming the possibility of fake deaths or the introduction of Knox's Decalogue (which was made it click for Battler as he re-read the first four with those in mind) and Will putting Clare to sleep which confirmed most of my theories. Of course the Chiru episodes are meant to help us solve the case but not every little detail counts, especially when most of the things confirmed -or hinted- as true in Chiru were atleast suggested or mentioned in some form in earlier games

[AuraTwilight]

Shannon, maybe, but Kanon only worked there for three years, and like most servants, they all took different shifts; Shannon and Kanon might never work at the same time except on the Conference and the other times when romance issues are brought up, for all we know. Interviewing the old servants doesn't necessarily mean much because there's a statistical possibility that they never met him (and if unsure, they could just assume he was because they read about him).

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I'd say that the former servants interviewed would have been in a position to notice whether or not Shannon or Kanon had worked there.

We don't know when those servants worked there or for how long or who they worked with. If Yasu were there as "Shannon," for example, a person who had worked there and met a "Shannon" would probably nod and say "Oh yes, I knew that girl Shannon, so these details must be accurate." Or they retired years before and said "Well, I've never heard of those particular servants, but Fukuin servants rotated in and out all the time so that sounds right." It's easy enough to poke holes in such a vague confirmation, as long as nothing obvious is broken.

You find me a servant - or Ange, or anyone really - who sits down and explicitly says "Oh yes, this one time Shannon sent me out looking for another servant, Kanon, and it took me hours to find him!"

I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.

[AuraTwilight]

I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.

The same reason she wants her Beatrice persona to be accepted; when Yasu creates a character, it's not enough to pretend to herself; she wants other people to accept that she has "created" an actual person. It's empowering to her.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The same reason she wants her Beatrice persona to be accepted; when Yasu creates a character, it's not enough to pretend to herself; she wants other people to accept that she has "created" an actual person. It's empowering to her.

That's ridiculous.

I'm not saying that your idea that this is the case is ridiculous, but that the idea itself is ridiculous, and if Ryukishi wants me to seriously invest in that idea, he is delusional.

[Leafsnail]

...Isn't that pretty much what Beatrice is doing for the first 4 arcs?

[Renall]

Acknowledging Beatrice herself is a false win condition and not Beatrice's goal. So it's actually exactly the opposite of that; she wants Battler to look beyond the characters she's created (Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice aren't "her") and find the real person.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Renall

We don't know when those servants worked there or for how long or who they worked with. If Yasu were there as "Shannon," for example, a person who had worked there and met a "Shannon" would probably nod and say "Oh yes, I knew that girl Shannon, so these details must be accurate." Or they retired years before and said "Well, I've never heard of those particular servants, but Fukuin servants rotated in and out all the time so that sounds right." It's easy enough to poke holes in such a vague confirmation, as long as nothing obvious is broken.

You find me a servant - or Ange, or anyone really - who sits down and explicitly says "Oh yes, this one time Shannon sent me out looking for another servant, Kanon, and it took me hours to find him!"

I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.

That's a pretty crappy confirmation, then. I'd expect somebody trying to verify the messages as trying to get confirmation on particular details like "Yes, Natsuhi was obsessive about having all the doors and windows locked, even though we lived on the island."." In particular, Manon is mentioned as having been on the island at the same time as Shannon and Kanon; I'd expect her to mention if she hadn't met Kanon. And I would expect mention of things like "Gohda really was just as good of a chef as it said, and Shannon could be a bit scatterbrained. I never met Kanon during all my time there.", and I'd expect somebody to notice if no other servant had ever met Kanon.