[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She could have taught Beatrice some initially, then Beatrice taught her some.

Nice try, but I don't buy it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Just to name one Maria says in different instances that she learned how to write magic circles with Beatrice, but in EP7 it's revealed that she actually already knew those and she taught them to Beatrice.

She taught Beatrice about Magic circles? When? As far as I know all she said was that she knew more than Beato at that time. She never said she taught her anything.

[AuraTwilight]

Becauuuuse....?

It's not like Beatrice doesn't have access to literally an entire library of occult materials (which she didn't get free reign of until after her friendship with Beatrice was established).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

She taught Beatrice about Magic circles? When? As far as I know all she said was that she knew more than Beato at that time. She never said she taught her anything.

Maria explicitly says that their magic compendia were different. There is also an instance that clearly shows that Beatrice didn't know the goetia key and that clearly shows that Maria is the one that taught her about it.

Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.

[UsagiTenpura]

Kinzo's occult book library is mostly made of books that are not written in japanese.
I do not think Yasu shares Kinzo's knowledge on languages.
Battler had a really hard time to find one he could read in arc 1. I also wouldn't put it past Yasu to have been the one to put it there since it so conveniently contained the answer Battler was looking for.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.

Well, she was pretty interested in magic itself, since she met with "Beatrice" and made magic happen and all that.

[Jan-Poo]

Yes but it was a completely different kind of magic. Beatrice specialized in ways to summon magic in the real world, from a pure theoretical standpoint she was ignorant and that's why Maria looked down on her at first.

Maria changed her opinion when she realized that while Beatrice had almost no knowledge of occultism she could actually perform magic tricks, when she herself was totally unable to do so.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Maria explicitly says that their magic compendia were different. There is also an instance that clearly shows that Beatrice didn't know the goetia key and that clearly shows that Maria is the one that taught her about it.

I was aware of that statement too, and I didn't make the conclusion that Maria taught her everything she knows. Lambda's TIP also pointed out that her compendium was very different from anything she'd seen before, but you wouldn't say that Lambdadelta taught her everything about magic would you? In Maria's story she's just starting with her magic hobby. When you start something out you don't usually know everything about it. It's definitely possible she did some learning on her own especially since Maria's only there for a visit or two every year. At best Maria made her aware of it. The Geotia key isn't something you can memorize in an afternoon.

Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.

That's because Claire's story was a story about Yasu and Battler isn't it? Why would Lion gain anything by learning more about Yasu's relationship with Maria at that point?

[mstrchef117]

So, what are the mysteries one is supposed to solve in the 1st 4 arcs?

I know, its sounds like such a stupid question, but please bear with me. I didn't really "properly" read Umineko as I haven't really read any mystery like "And then there were None" prior to my reading the core arcs last year. If I recall, for Ep. 1 I tried to look at it using L&O style detective methods (aka. listen to the expert and look at alibi) but then all that magic stuff started to happen so I got derailed and just decided to go along for the ride. Now that I read Ep. 7, I realized what a giant mistake I made in reading the Core Arcs like that, so I'm heading back to reread 1-4.

So here are my questions

Spoiler for Ep.7:

What are the mysteries the reader is supposed to solve?
I mean, from what I remember from the chiru arcs, Ep. 1 & 2 are written by Yasu for Battler and only put to sea only because something bad happened on the Island. So according to Ep. 7, these Eps were written prior to any "murders" and therefore should not have any bearing on "what happened on the Island", so what is the mystery in Ep. 1 & 2 in relation to the big picture?

2nd, which means the 3rd and 4th Arcs are the important episodes to solve the mystery on the island right?

[UsagiTenpura]

Well according to Ryuukishi the "mystery" part of Umineko ends in arc 7. So theorically all of them are meant to be solved. However that doesn't necessarily imply that you are meant to solve the "reality" of "Rokkenjima Prime", but rather the "who dunnit, why dunnit and how dunnit" of every arc.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I was aware of that statement too, and I didn't make the conclusion that Maria taught her everything she knows. Lambda's TIP also pointed out that her compendium was very different from anything she'd seen before, but you wouldn't say that Lambdadelta taught her everything about magic would you? In Maria's story she's just starting with her magic hobby. When you start something out you don't usually know everything about it. It's definitely possible she did some learning on her own especially since Maria's only there for a visit or two every year. At best Maria made her aware of it. The Geotia key isn't something you can memorize in an afternoon.

Beatrice might have made some self study about occultism after meeting Maria, but that's at best speculation since we don't have any evidence of that.

All the evidences that we have show Maria teaching Beatrice about occultism. Not a single instance was presented of the opposite happening. It is also evident that Maria possessed a higher knowledge about occultism than Beatrice.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

All the evidences that we have show Maria teaching Beatrice about occultism.

And I don't agree that what you cited is evidence for that at all?

Not a single instance was presented of the opposite happening.

Episode 4, Marriage Sorciere? In Episode 7 Will isn't allowed to investigate it.

It is also evident that Maria possessed a higher knowledge about occultism than Beatrice.

I already accepted that she did at the time they met.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

And I don't agree that what you cited is evidence for that at all?

How is that not an evidence? There's a scene that shows Maria teaching Beatrice about the goetia key, what kind of argument can you use to deny that?

Originally Posted by Judoh

Episode 4, Marriage Sorciere? In Episode 7 Will isn't allowed to investigate it.

We are talking about occultism or demonology here. Mariage Sorciere isn't about that. Most of Beatrice's magic compendium is just stuff that she came up by herself, not something that she studied.

[Judoh]

There's a scene that shows Maria teaching Beatrice about the goetia key, what kind of argument can you use to deny that?

Refresh my memory. Are you talking about the scene where Maria gave everybody their names?

[AuraTwilight]

It's worth noting that Maria only memorizes the occult knowledge she touts; she doesn't necessarily understand it, and according to her, Beatrice clarified things.

Maria provides the seed of raw information, but Beatrice is the one who brings it into a coherent meaning.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Refresh my memory. Are you talking about the scene where Maria gave everybody their names?

She didn't limit herself to give them their names, she explained what those names refers to. She provided reasons as to why she chose those names.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's worth noting that Maria only memorizes the occult knowledge she touts; she doesn't necessarily understand it, and according to her, Beatrice clarified things.

Clarified things about occultism to Maria? I don't remember anything of that sort.
Also I don't really agree that Maria didn't understand what she studied.

[zibbazabba905]

Sorry for asking this so late in the game, but have they explained why battler can't say that he was born from Asumo earlier in the games? Was that just a moot argument, or was that supposed to be an allusion to the baby swap with Nasuhi?

[Chron]

I see.

Well.

It's not a baby swap with natsuhi. It's a baby swap with Kyrie. And specifically, Battler wasn't born from Asumu. Battler is Kyrie's biological child.

[zibbazabba905]

it would be safe to assume that yes, if he's not Asumo's kid, he should be Kyrie's kid. I'm just wondering how that matters because he is Rudolph's kid. The reason I think it was an allusion to YasuLion is that there was no mention of a extra relative in the first half the story

[Chron]

No...You can just take it at face value, that's all.