Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

As much as your ideology of one episode failing to bring down the industry is quite true, I speak of it as a branching point. An anchoring point. You say the author did it because he wanted to go all out to end it. I disagree. I ask you, why does fanservice exist? If you truly think it's to please the author, I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken. Fanservice exists to please the populous and to give them something to look at. The authors aren't all horny little bastards sitting alone in a basement writing up stories because they're lonely. They're real people. Professionals, who generally know exactly what the majority wants to see. It's a staple reason why debate exists- conflicting fanbases. The author has a choice to follow his own personal thoughts, or to give in to the screaming voices and do what most people might drool over. In the end, the world is a business, and we are but its mindless customers.

Now don't misinterpret that. There are plenty of fantastic authors out there who value what is right and can bring their series to a sensible consensus for the people who follow it. Bottom line is, this episode seriously felt unnecessary. Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening. I'm sorry, but I don't call that good writing. Good writing doesn't just quote/unquote "screw around for the sake of it", especially since it's a continuation. It'd be telling the first Lord of the Rings story, then throwing in magical spells and large-breasted women because a ton of fans wrote in asking for it. Now, I can appreciate that one must have fun while writing, and that in itself is an actual charm of writing. This overexaggerated scenario was seriously unneeded though, I strongly feel.

I can also respect your outlook and how you can give things 10/10 because you're not one for critique. Tell me something though, surely there must be genres of music you dislike? Television series you don't enjoy? Personalities that irritate you? It is important to establish a standard where you can stand in. It is why the concept of debate exists in our world, for without it we'd be blobs of amoeba that are all the same. Some people, like myself, enjoy sophistication and creativity in something I partake in. I don't give 10/10 unless it is absolutely flawless, or so very damn close that I can't give it a 9. I rarely have 10/10s, and you have a lot. That's totally fine. What I find is that there simply is too much in the world. If you spend the time loving everything, you'll never learn to hate. Hate is an ugly word, I agree, but it's a human emotion, and an important one at that. How about I say that I don't hate this episode, but I seriously feel like not watching it again?

Also, I think you might have the wrong perspective on a lot of the users here. Most people don't go into a thread to simply "trash" something. Trolls and flamers are generally well moderated, and I actually don't see a lot of them myself. No, you voice a strongly negative opinion on something because you truly found it to be bad, in your opinion. It's a personal viewpoint. Undeniably, debates and arguments WILL break out with conflicting views. It can't be helped, but it happens. The thing is, people might not show it, but we have something called influential behavioral patterns where debate WILL generally make them at least consider what their opposition is saying. Without even knowing it, some people change their viewpoint because their brain tells them the opposition's claims hold merit. Others are dedicated to their points and that's alright too. What's important is that you have your own opinion and I have mine. Not "agree to disagree", but much rather "agree to a consensus". Nobody is wrong.

Read this:

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

Directly related to this episode, I found the following interesting.

Spoiler for Nisio Isin's comments on Karen Bee:

Taken from http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemono...thors-comments Make what you will of it.

It only occurred to me recently, but humans are creatures with many dimensions, so they inevitably end up entwined in many different interests. It’s a concept I find difficult to grasp: the person you see in yourself and the person others see in you can be completely different people. I can try to deny it, but it’s the truth.

And there isn’t just one version of you that other people have; indeed, you are a different person to different people.

So I can see why someone might go on a journey to find himself, asking, “Just who am I!?”

It would be simple just to call it being confused, but the fact that different sets of eyes process the same things differently is something that can’t be denied. What someone perceives as fake could be real to someone else, and what someone perceives as real could be fake to someone else. Though maybe it’s misguided to talk about such an objective measure in a subjective way like that.

How should I put it… it’s obvious that humans are creatures who change their behavior depending on the audience, so maybe the person who has the most correct view of yourself is yourself.

But does to know oneself mean to know just a part of yourself?

So I present to you the first volume of Nisemonogatari, the sequel to Bakemonogatari. The Araragi Sisters, who have been getting criticized for their absence since Bakemonogatari’s prequel Kizumonogatari have finally made their appearance as mains. Keep this a secret, but to tell you the truth, I had originally written this novel without any plans to publish it. I wrote the entire thing without showing it to anyone. I wanted to hide it away without even making a single printout. In other words, this novel was originally something I was going to keep to myself. So this novel was written 200% to fit my tastes. I very much enjoyed getting to write everything that came from my mind without any arbitrary restrictions.

Yes, there were times when I asked myself, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a professional!” But I think there’s a certain charm to approaching writing as if I were an amateur.

It was with that feeling that I wrote the “The 6th Story, Karen Bee,” Nisemonogatari Volume 1.

Oh, VOFAN provided the artwork. His drawing of Araragi Karen was so fantastic, as the author I have to thank him deeply.

I also thank you the readers for bearing with this novel filled with my dumb stories written without much care.

Well, cheerio! Let’s meet again soon in Nisemonogatari Volume 2, another sequel, featuring Araragi Tsukihi this time – that is, if I decide to publish it.

-Nisio Isin

In some ways, it's like a serial killer's manifesto. It doesn't justify the act, but it gives you a glimpse into the motives behind it.

Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.

[Ceral]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been established, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Read this:



Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.

That's another I forgot to mention. People tend criticize the thing they don't like rather than blaming themselves for not being a part of the audience that enjoys it.

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

Yes. The future of Karen/Koyomi relationship has been called into question (and as such, the "point" of the episode). In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget your commitments. But what about the next day? I'm pretty sure that once they have calmed down, Koyomi (and Karen) will think of the consequences and come to their senses. (It could end up not being the case, too.)

That sounds sensible. What was the point of this scene (episode) again? Glorification of sexually arousing brushing of teeth between two siblings. When you rationalize it, it invites criticism (well, from anyone who doesn't particularly care for these kind of things). Then you have to balance in your mind two sides. Simplified alot: On one hand: "boring incest trope", "tiring imouto fetish", seemingly pointless fanservice episode and a pairing with no real future. And on the other: characterization, possible future of the pairing, the scene itself (how it played out audio-visually, I think this is pretty significant) and Nisio's comments. Anyone's mileage will vary here.

I juggled those concepts around in my mind, and decided to praise the episode.

edit: Regarding what has been said below, Koyomi's relationships sure are a very tangled web.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Read this:



Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.

Well, would you look at that. I appreciate you finding that post for me, but when I wrote what I did, my intentions were not to bash authors in general. What I'm saying is that the Earth is a conglomerate. We are its supporters, and what we do DOES have an impact on the overall productivity, like it or not. Hopefully that makes sense.

Still, thanks for that article, it eases quite a few of my worries. Also, I hope I haven't come off as one who bashes the fanbase who liked this episode. While I personally don't like just how many people are giving this episode perfect scores, it IS your opinion. I'm not bashing, I'm just voicing my side with no intentions of pulling others to my side.

Originally Posted by Ceral

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been establlish, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).

Mhm, here's my standpoint. To me, I hate marketing Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari as harem-esque, because more of the focus is on the character dialogue and story, generally. However, when an episode consists mostly of sexual moaning, nudity and other things along that nature, it changes the experience for me. For me, I hope they don't have Koyomi leave Senjougahara for another. It would feel weird after EVERYTHING that happened in Bake.

Originally Posted by zarqu

Yes. The future of Karen/Koyomi relationship has been called into question (and as such, the "point" of the episode). In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget your commitments. But what about the next day? I'm pretty sure that once they have calmed down, Koyomi (and Karen) will think of the consequences and come to their senses. (It could end up not being the case, too.)

That sounds sensible. What was the point of this scene (episode) again? Glorification of sexually arousing brushing of teeth between two siblings. When you rationalize it, it invites criticism (well, from anyone who doesn't particularly care for these kind of things). Then you have to balance in your mind two sides. On one hand: "boring incest trope", "tiring imouto fetish", seemingly pointless fanservice episode and a pairing with no real future. And on the other: characterization, possible future of the pairing, the scene itself (how it played out audio-visually, I think this is pretty significant) and Nisio's comments.

I juggled those concepts around in my mind, and decided to praise the episode.

You make a solid point. I can't say I can praise the episode myself, but I can understand why you did. Still, something in me rejects this scene, and that's just something on my side, you know?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

We've already had this debate a few weeks ago (can't remember what prompted it) and I'll repeat what I said then: clever dialogues are not the only element that defines the Monogatari series. It's the whole package that makes it what it is: the witty dialogues, the stunning visuals, the character interaction, AND the fanservice. If you don't like it, it's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't as well. Saying things like "120+ peole loved this episode, I can't believe my eyes" shock me. So what if most of us loved this episode? It was incredibly funny, original, well directed, and quite arousing. I don't see anything wrong with liking it. I actually find it great that people can enjoy such abstract and out of the norm fanservice, and for different reasons to boot (some liked it because they found it was comedy gold, others because it was arousing, and some like me for both). There wasn't even a single pantyshot (actually I think there was one, but everybody overlooked it in favor of the toothbrushing) or bare boobs in this ep. To me, it was completely different from the stuff you can see in your average ecchi anime, it wasn't fanservice anymore, that was eroticism. And as such, it was in fact kind of refreshing.

Now, I can totally understand why you didn't like this episode, as the fanservice has completely taken the show over for a few minutes instead of striking a balance with the dialogues as usual, but I don't think that's any reason to look down on others for enjoying it. I think you're blowing it out of proportion too. It's not the end of the world. This episode isn't going to kill anime, nor even the Nisemonogatari series. It's just ONE episode. And while I loved it, if every episode from now on were to be the same and throw the other elements out of the window, even I would get annoyed. However, we don't know that yet, and I'm quite confident it won't happen.

As a side note, I did find your rant a bit ridiculous -as you're about five years too late- but I feel it's something that's been building up inside of you for a while and that you really needed to get this out of your chest. This ep seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That can happen once in a while.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Ceral

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been establlish, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).

Let's give a little more background information in terms of Hitagi's role in this series. As I mentioned already in one of my recent posts, Nisio never planned on the series getting as far as this. He made Hitagi the main love interest because he wanted Araragi to be with somebody before the series ended. When things got popular Nisio got himself stuck in a situation he wanted out.

There is evidence that shows Hitagi wasn't exactly the girl he wanted Araragi to be with had he known this series was going to last a long time

Nisio probably wants to split Hitagi and Araragi up but couldn't because then he'll be going against what he wrote.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by Kanon

We've already had this debate a few weeks ago (can't remember what prompted it) and I'll repeat what I said then: clever dialogues are not the only element that defines the Monogatari series. It's the whole package that makes it what it is: the witty dialogues, the stunning visuals, the character interaction, AND the fanservice. If you don't like it, it's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't as well. Saying things like "120+ peole loved this episode, I can't believe my eyes" shock me. So what if most of us loved this episode? It was incredibly funny, original, well directed, and quite arousing. I don't see anything wrong with liking it. I actually find it great that people can enjoy such abstract and out of the norm fanservice, and for different reasons to boot (some liked it because they found it was comedy gold, others because it was arousing, and some like me for both). There wasn't even a single pantyshot (actually I think there was one, but everybody overlooked it in favor of the toothbrushing) or bare boobs in this ep. To me, it was completely different from the stuff you can see in your average ecchi anime, it wasn't fanservice anymore, that was eroticism. And as such, it was in fact kind of refreshing.

Now, I can totally understand why you didn't like this episode, as the fanservice has completely taken the show over for a few minutes instead of striking a balance with the dialogues as usual, but I don't think that's any reason to look down on others for enjoying it. I think you're blowing it out of proportion too. It's not the end of the world. This episode isn't going to kill anime, nor even the Nisemonogatari series. It's just ONE episode. And while I loved it, if every episode from now on were to be the same and throw the other elements out of the window, even I would get annoyed. However, we don't know that yet, and I'm quite confident it won't happen.

As a side note, I did find your rant a bit ridiculous -as you're about five years too late- but I feel it's something that's been building up inside of you for a while and that you really needed to get this out of your chest. This ep seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Oh good, this saves me a little bit of reading time. First off, I don't really like how you quoted me in that fashion, as it completely changes what I said. I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all. My rant derived from the combination of outcomes like this, the sudden change in my current series (not just this one), and the sudden feeling of emptiness I got from looking at the upcoming series.

5 years late sounds a little ridiculous too. I don't know how much our watching lists differ, but I don't generally go looking for moe and fanservice, it finds me and I can choose to like or dislike it. Ergo, over the course of the last 5 years, I can honestly say that I haven't felt this awkward about an episode or even come close. That doesn't mean the general fanbase is wrong, or that the content was wrong either. I am talking from MY thoughts, and that's how I felt.

Basically (or tl;dr), everyone speaks from their own perspectives. I certainly don't mean to directly bash anyone for how they saw this episode, but I stand by my statement that I find it a little worrying to me how many 10/10 ratings there are. We should just have a "Like" or "Dislike" system; it'd prove my point better. Hopefully you weren't offended. If you were, I apologize.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

As for the next episode, I have a feeling everyone's right about this not being the standard. However, that ending seems to jab at me with other possibilities.

It is well established that Hitagi is insecure about her status as Araragi's girlfriend. It is also well established that Araragi doesn't actually consider Hitagi the most physically attractive, the most closest to him, or the one he confesses his deepest secrets to.

Hitagi was late to the game when she set her eyes on Araragi. She saw that he had at least Hanekawa already making moves. Hitagi never actually competed with Hanekawa; she never demanded that Araragi choose her over Hanekawa. Hitagi just outright asked him out.

Araragi said yes, and he took that as a serious contract. So now he is Hitagi's boyfriend and nothing will change that. But you have to understand that he always have been attracted to Hanekawa's body, and still does. Having a girlfriend does not, and cannot change the fact that he considers Hanekawa hot. It is also true that whenever he has a problem, he talks to Mayoi. Mayoi is his closest confidant.

And finally, we have Shinobu. Shinobu is almost literally Araragi's soulmate; but details of why, would have to wait for the movie. Suffice to say the Araragi we see today has very little to do with the Araragi in the prequel. She lives for him, and he lives for her. They would likely be together until the sun goes supernova.

And yet... Hitagi is still Araragi's girlfriend. She works hard to make the relationship work, and he does what he can to help. However, it is impossible to demand Araragi to stop being friends with other girls, because he doesn't HAVE any male friends. Neither Hitagi nor Araragi are ideal partners, but they make do.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by omimon

The series wasn't aimed at anyone. The anime takes it's story word for word from the novel (99% then if it's not word for word) and the series was just Nisio playing around.

The series started as short stories which was collected into two volumes because fans for whatever reason liked it. Nisio never planned on this to turn into a series because he was never in "serious" mode. For the people who enjoyed Bake, sorry to break this to you but Nisio wasn't even trying when he wrote it. He has been half-assing it for a looooong time.

Nisio made it SUPER obvious that when he wrote Nise he was writing it for himself.

He tried to end the series multiple times.
End 1: Short stories only
End 2: Bake 1 and 2 only
End 3: Bake and Kizu
End 4: Bake, Kizu and Nise
End 5: Bake, Kizu, Nise, Neko and Kabuki
End 6: Season 1 and Season 2
End 7 and present: Season 1, 2 and Final

I have to disagree on Nise not selling well. Unlike the western fandom I'm pretty sure Japanese people who watch the anime read the novels. People who Shaft are targeting (Japanese fans) all have access to the novels and these fans knew wayyyy in advance what they were getting into. Sales on amazon still shows that each disc is in #1 for at least a week or so.

But the level of adaptation is different. Bakemonogatari was not pulled word-for-word from the novel as Nise. Lots were cut out. And Araragi was portrayed more like a normal male lead than his current pervert siscon gag-throwing character

And when i said Bakemonogatari as "mainstream anime", i means by Shaft standard. The animation is down to budget, while the style is down to Shaft being Shaft. The starting story itself is quite shounen and cliche: boy meet girl, rescue her from 'bad' monster while show out his dark past. Comparing to starting episodes of Nisemonogatari where you get lots of character interaction and fan services with almost no plot (yet)

I will be surprise if Nise can surpass the 85k benchmark by Bakemonogatari. And i think Shaft will be surprised too

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

But the level of adaptation is different. Bakemonogatari was not pulled word-for-word from the novel as Nise. And Araragi was portrayed more like a normal male lead than his current pervert siscon gag-throwing character

And when i said Bakemonogatari as "mainstream anime", i means by Shaft standard. The animation is down to budget, while the style is down to Shaft being Shaft. The starting story itself is quite shounen and cliche: boy meet girl, rescue her from 'bad' monster while show out his dark past. Comparing to starting episodes of Nisemonogatari where you get lots of character interaction and fan services with almost no plot (yet)

I will be surprise if Nsie can surpass the 85k benchmark by Bakemonogatari. And i think Shaft will be surprised too

This reminds me of another SHAFT show, Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. It was adapted from a very quirky manga series.

The thing is, SZS was altered and changed to make it a more of a traditional gag comedy anime. However, sequels slowly became far more faithful to the social commentary manga that the source material truly was. After Shaft became comfortable with their fanbase. This culminated in an OVA special where Shaft retroactively redid the events of the 1st TV season, making it closer to the source material and closed a few plot holes in the process.

Yes, it is true that a lot more things were cut out in Bake than in Nise. That's why people were so confused about why Araragi is suddenly attracted to Hanekawa's body. But in the end, for this franchise to run the full course, it HAS to stay faithful to the source material. Any alterations would cause a butterfly effect that harms the consistency later.

Araragi is Araragi, no more and no less.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

This reminds me of another SHAFT show, Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. It was adapted from a very quirky manga series.

The thing is, SZS was altered and changed to make it a more of a traditional gag comedy anime. However, sequels slowly became far more faithful to the social commentary manga that the source material truly was. After Shaft became comfortable with their fanbase. This culminated in an OVA special where Shaft retroactively redid the events of the 1st TV season, making it closer to the source material and closed a few plot holes in the process.

Yes, it is true that a lot more things were cut out in Bake than in Nise. That's why people were so confused about why Araragi is suddenly attracted to Hanekawa's body. But in the end, for this franchise to run the full course, it HAS to stay faithful to the source material. Any alterations would cause a butterfly effect that harms the consistency later.

Araragi is Araragi, no more and no less.

I think even the original work also have followed that model. Even if Hitagi is the main character and will get her first arc, i don't think the novel will get this level of success (or does not face controversial) if the second arc is this one with Karen.

So yes i believe the franchise really was coordinated carefully. But my point still stands on: Nisemonogatari is really a different series, not Bakemonogatari 2. They really prepared for it so even if some of us gonna lose out interesting, the main bulk of fanbase by then is large enough to spread it to those with similar taste.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all.

Don't put stock into ratings. In the end, all ratings systems are flawed by one huge issue: they're completely subjective and have no reflection except to illustrate a trend of the audience liking or disliking. Honestly I have half a mind to change that "perfect" in our polls to "outstanding". People put too much emphasis on the "perfect". We get it, nothing is perfect, because there is always something to pick at. If everything was perfect, discussion would be dull right?

When I rate a show or just an episode 10/10, it is because I felt the show or episode was just that damn good. Maybe it did have flaws, maybe even some glaring ones. However when I rate, I rate based on one simple criteria: "Did I like it, and how much?". From there, I can either be compelled to explain or offer an explanation if one is asked of me.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Oh good, this saves me a little bit of reading time. First off, I don't really like how you quoted me in that fashion, as it completely changes what I said. I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all. My rant derived from the combination of outcomes like this, the sudden change in my current series (not just this one), and the sudden feeling of emptiness I got from looking at the upcoming series.

5 years late sounds a little ridiculous too. I don't know how much our watching lists differ, but I don't generally go looking for moe and fanservice, it finds me and I can choose to like or dislike it. Ergo, over the course of the last 5 years, I can honestly say that I haven't felt this awkward about an episode or even come close. That doesn't mean the general fanbase is wrong, or that the content was wrong either. I am talking from MY thoughts, and that's how I felt.

Basically (or tl;dr), everyone speaks from their own perspectives. I certainly don't mean to directly bash anyone for how they saw this episode, but I stand by my statement that I find it a little worrying to me how many 10/10 ratings there are. We should just have a "Like" or "Dislike" system; it'd prove my point better. Hopefully you weren't offended. If you were, I apologize.

That wasn't my intention. I don't like engaging in quote battles, so I either quote the whole posts or only the first part of it if it's too long. I don't think I completely distorted what you said, did I? If you feel my interpretation of your post was completely wrong, I'd like you to clarify.

In regards to your reaction about the votes, it seems I misunderstood it. I thought it was that so many people loved the episode that worried you, and not just that they voted 10/10. 10/10 doesn't really mean that an episode is the best thing since sliced bread to me, only that it's damn awesome. Incidentally, I agree with you: everything would be a lot more simply with a like an dislike system (maybe adding two additional love and hate options). You'd be able to tell right away what people's stance on the episode is.

5 years sounds about right to me. I've been reading that kind of rant for the longest time. I agree this ep of Nisemonogatari pushed the envelope, but I don't think it's necessarily "worse", it was just different. Erotic toothbrushing or SM yuri sex in Seikon no qwaser (a two year old show, by the way), which is worse? It all depends on the individual, I suppose. I haven't felt much changes these past few years other than the addition of nipples two or three years ago (it used to be a rarity, now it's quite common): there are a lot of fanservice shows, and there are also a few quality series that are devoid of it. They are fewer, but they exist. The ratio has been roughly the same for a long time. Personally, I watch a little bit of everything, I tend to focus mostly on "smart" series in the past but I've learned to appreciate mindless fanservice series as well over the years. I like picking one of them per season.You can check my list on my profile if you want.

And take the Spring 2012 chart for example. I see Ozuma, Sakimichi no Appolon, Uchuu Kyoudai, Saint Seiya Omega, Jormungand, Fate/Zero; neither of which will have moe or fanservice, at least not as far as I can tell. That's not bad at all.

[Triple_R]

A couple comments I'm going to make given Sol's response to me and PaperMario's recent posts on this thread:

1) I can certainly understand and respect why many people like this episode and are very entertained by it. I can see how the overall execution of this episode, given SHAFT's impressively high production values and attention to detail and great style, can make it seem special to viewers. So I'll concede to that. I hope that's enough to make you feel like I'm respecting your tastes here, Sol, as well as the tastes of most viewers of this episode.

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.


I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.

[zarqu]

Certainly a bit of a slippery slope there don't you think, Triple_R?

No one here (heh, at least I'd like to think so) wants anime to turn into softcore porn. At the moment we have one (1) episode of a 11+ episode series, which is known for its erotic tone, that is pretty much only "fanservice" or glorification of a sexual theme.

Nisemonogatari will be a difficult work to deal with if Nisio's comments about it are genuine. Yes, it's him masturbating with a pen, but at the same time he did make it clear that Nisemonogatari is sort of an exception to the general rule of the Monogatari series. I'm not awfully worried, because many novels have indeed been published after Nise, so the story is bound to have progressed away from Nisemonogatari's gratuitously sexual themes. So in a sense, at least some viewers knew (or know now) what they were getting into, and were ready to indulge. Understandably people coming from Bakemonogatari anime will have a different perspective. (I am a somewhat spoiled anime-only watcher myself.)

I have been juggling this episode in my mind for 20 pages now, so I'm perfectly happy (maybe somewhat relieved too) to leave it at that. Reading the conversation has been interesting; I'm always interested to read how and why other people like what they like and think what they think. To engage in the dialectic is an edifying experience; it's always worth it to examine first principles. I feel like I have reached a somekind of synthesis, myself.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How bold!

This is a shallow argument. There is a lot of things you can see everyday in anime. Love stories. Monsters. Mecha. Aliens. And fanservice. Even if something has been done to death though, that doesn't mean you can't still try to do it better. Nisio and Shaft waltzed in and did it LIKE A BOSS.

How... I've seen this a bazillion places before. How disappointing of the man who wrote the excellent arcs and dialogue of Bakemonogatari.

Dialogues of which you have only heard the abridged version

Furthermore, the vehicle chosen utterly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I've been to a Dentist before. Getting your teeth brushed by another person is highly unlikely to have an effect like this, even if you're madly in love with the person doing the brushing.

Nisio throws in random factoids here an there, but the toothbrush scene, most likely, comes from his own personal imagination.

Then again, your personal experience couldn't mean anything. For example, there are women who orgasm during birth. All women should be able to do it, but the majority of them associates motherhood with responsibility, so they are unconsciously on guard against pleasure.

Looking at the situation more objectively, toothbrush sex should be more like a weird French kiss than anything. Still, like with the g-spot and squirting, knowing the truth is not important. I just want to believe

The Monogatari series actually used to explore interesting conflicts, ideas, relationship issues, and themes. There was a certain intellectual and thought-provoking heft to it. Aside from a couple conversations involving Kaiki there's been virtually none of this in Nise.

This is absolutely false.

There were two main threads because there were two main opponents. With Karen it was about what it means to be an ally of justice. With Kaiki it was about the nature of evil, as presented by his character itself more than his dialogue. Then there were minor reflections here and there.

All of the fanservice scenes of this anime (with the exceptions of the one involving Hitagi) can't go anywhere, hence keeping character relationships in something of a holding pattern as far as romantic/sexual interest is concerned. They're all one big tease, imo. That's a lot of what I often find unsatisfying about them.

But that's what doujins are for This is just a parody of harem anime, not the story of a harem. It doesn't have to be taken so seriously

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I also can't believe that some commenters are calling that scene "character development".
People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse.

But this is anime. Here catharsis is fast and random. For example, I think you remember what you wrote about Guilty Crown

The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.

Don't look too much into it. In Japan it is manners to be extremely humble about yourself. Even Tomino treated Gundam like a below average anime in his interviews. I think it's just acting.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.

This forum is specifically targeted at people who appreciate the anime discussed in here. There is no explicit rule that says it must be so, but mostly is aficionados who gravitate here. Animesuki's strong point is exactly the specialization of all its forums. It's different from a general anime forum (or 4chan, for example).

(I am not talking like I am some kind of representative of animesuki, I am just reading the atmosphere.)

Then you come here and pull out an opinion which is contrastive with the one of the majority, using a civil tone and a dignified attitude (but ultimately this doesn't matter. You can start by saying "This anime is terrible" or throwing out random negative buzzwords like "fanservice" and "otaku pandering" and the result will be exactly the same).

What the other people here think is "This guy looks so unhappy. Maybe if we teach him how to enjoy this anime he will be fun to have around". (See? They care for you in their own way)

At this point though you start complaining that the other people can't accept that your tastes may not be the same. You don't realize your own faults.

In fact, you are a bit like Karen when facing Kaiki. Karen thought that if she blamed Kaiki he would have had to give in. She didn't conceive evil as obstinate. Similarly, you don't think people are opinionated, and that in end you arguments may be not much more than sophisms.

I repeat. Isn't it better to be able to enjoy many things? If there is a problem in your viewpoint that doesn't let you enjoy Nise, then why don't you change your viewpoint? Well, obviously it is impossible to change opinions that much, but maybe there are preconceptions that could be fixed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A couple comments I'm going to make given Sol's response to me and PaperMario's recent posts on this thread:

1) I can certainly understand and respect why many people like this episode and are very entertained by it. I can see how the overall execution of this episode, given SHAFT's impressively high production values and attention to detail and great style, can make it seem special to viewers. So I'll concede to that. I hope that's enough to make you feel like I'm respecting your tastes here, Sol, as well as the tastes of most viewers of this episode.

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.


I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.

And I will throw a question back at you; how many people giving this episode 10/10, as a percentage, is acceptable to you?

If you feel anime is doomed because 90% of people on this thread gave it 10/10, then what percentage is acceptable in your view?

60%? 40%? 0%?

What is the amount of people needed to dislike this episode, in order for you to feel better?

I would just like you to quantify the exact amount of people you deemed socially correct in having different taste from you.

After all, if 90% of people disagreeing with you is "too much", then how much is "not too much"? I like to see your tolerance level.

[klare]

the sound they made in this eps made me sweat while watching... next time have to watch Nise only when i am alone

the OP animation is very nice and cute, but i dont like the content much

[monir]

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.

eeks... I think it's indeed a good idea for you to get away from this argument for a bit.. clear your head. Get some fresh air. Such blanket statement won't improve any arguments. Ultimately fanservice is defined by YOU as a fan and whatever tickle your fancy i.e. whether it is moe, eroticism, humor (of all kind), feel good situation, etc.. ect.

I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.

Hah! That might be falling at deaf ear at this moment.