(CR) White Album 2

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[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Given how much detail was put into that little sequence, I'm surprised the "main event" itself had so few visuals put into it (and what we saw was heavily censored). Hitomi Nabatame has an extensive CV for eroge titles, so I'm further surprised as to why they didn't put her extensive experience in making (censored) noises to good use for this one (but very significant) scene, especially given how much dialogue was there in the game (or so I've heard).

You know what? How they were depicting this scene was _perfect_ in my eyes, because I could _so_ relate with former personal experiences. You're with someone and passion is overwhelming you. Still, especially in Japanese culture, you generally don't want your surroundings to know what you're doing. What happens is that you're breathing heavily, with gasps and light, short moans, but if there is one thing you definitely do NOT do is squeal like porno queens shouting how deep the manly tool is reaching. This is unrealistic BS and - at least for me - a total turnoff. I'm glad that they did NOT depict it that way, and that whoever directed this scene continues to go for _realism_.

[Leon_Lelouch]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Given how much detail was put into that little sequence, I'm surprised the "main event" itself had so few visuals put into it (and what we saw was heavily censored). Hitomi Nabatame has an extensive CV for eroge titles, so I'm further surprised as to why they didn't put her extensive experience in making (censored) noises to good use for this one (but very significant) scene, especially given how much dialogue was there in the game (or so I've heard).

After YnS aired, I must say that this one was very disappointing by comparison. You go to all the previous lengths to show Touma's and Haruki's passion for each other, and then you skimp on the "high point"? As for "tender," they certainly didn't show it through dialogue.

I'm confused by what you're saying; the story of WA2 was written by a man, after all. Were you expecting something different if it was aimed towards female viewers (like maybe the standard otome game setup of multiple men competing for one woman's attention, which is somewhat more realistic)?

Oh, and I find it interesting that Touma stole Haruki's buttons after their "encounter." I wonder if that was an intentional inversion by Maruto of the trope that "men steal women's underwear from the women they've slept with."

no really.... YnS was really an exceptional of the eroge made into anime series, it even made me shock looking at it as the eroge itself was not really hardcore (usual kind of choice, liked by a girl, and so on)

She used a false name in the first game which includes ero in the game and consider the PS3 version to be the first time that she was taking part as the seiyuu, so why would she easily show their PC version towards public under her real name (even though we could already know even from the voice if we compare it)

well I don't know about it's popularity towards female, but from the radio I'd heard when Nabatame and Yonezawa talked, some of their female friends were actually enjoyed playing it too and consider to have an all girls party while playing the game (I don't know if it's real or not, but they just talked like that)

As far as I know, school uniform's button is actually one of Japanese school tradition that can be considered as a present which is usually given to important person or such (especially the second button), but maybe Kazusa didn't want to have Haruki's button to be taken by anyone else (especially Setsuna since Haruki hadn't even given it to her) so she took it all

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Mentar

You know what? How they were depicting this scene was _perfect_ in my eyes, because I could _so_ relate with former personal experiences. You're with someone and passion is overwhelming you. Still, especially in Japanese culture, you generally don't want your surroundings to know what you're doing. What happens is that you're breathing heavily, with gasps and light, short moans, but if there is one thing you definitely do NOT do is squeal like porno queens shouting how deep the manly tool is reaching. This is unrealistic BS and - at least for me - a total turnoff. I'm glad that they did NOT depict it that way, and that whoever directed this scene continues to go for _realism_.

This,so much this.

If I want "my hips are moving on their own" corny lines I'd just watch hentai.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

yeah, i never really noticed that many animation problems. only like the hands seemed off in some scenes. haha. but in all seriousness, i'm legitimately shocked that the writer managed to string episodes 10 - 13 together. they were all 10/10. i can't think of another series that hits a high and stays there like that.

I think what really wowed me with this show was how the last four episodes really put everything that had come before into a completely new place.

There was always something about the first half of the show that somewhat bored me or I kept getting lost more in watching the time than the show, but some scenes always stuck out at me as being oddly showy for what seemed like inconsequential stuff (turns out it was all foreshadowing). But when they hit me with Haruki's desperate chase to catch Kazusa, the flashbacks of the past before the show started (and later through the show, but thats the next episode), and Setsuna's party collapsing in on itself because of the lies it was built on, just slammed it home.

Since I had marathoned the show up to and including Ep. 12, I looked back and simply said, "Wow." Last time I remember visual queues like this, subtle hints about whats going on underneath, was in Mashiphony and while my relationship with that show was a rocky one and I had some issue with its structure, it handled subtle foreshadowing and build-up quite well. I can, off the top of my head, now remember several scenes where you figuratively have Haruki slamming on the glass that surrounds Kazusa, and Kazusa doing the same, but in either case either their attention is elsewhere or someone's standing in the way. So of course watching that glass wall come crashing down was rather cathartic.

But, all said and done, I never came away with the best of impressions of Setsuna (though none of the characters are paragons of virtue, just more relatable/understandable somehow) after the revelations. I liked her quite a bit at the start when everything seemed rather linear but when the pieces fell into place, my opinion started to drift. The more I found out that she knew how Kazusa felt, the more I was thinking "Why would you do that?" And come Ep. 11, I think she just completely lost me. When I watched Ep. 13, her breakdown felt like the pendulum of karma swinging back and sad as it was to watch, I didn't feel sad for her. Odd as that sounds.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Vena

And come Ep. 11, I think she just completely lost me. When I watched Ep. 13, her breakdown felt like the pendulum of karma swinging back and sad as it was to watch, I didn't feel sad for her. Odd as that sounds.

I didn't see much of a breakdown, actually. There's an odd aura of masochism about Setsuna; she seems to get high on self-loathing. It's not quite that simple, but there's a definite sense of it: as if she wants to have her cake and eat it, but knows it's impossible, so the pain of impossibility is the next best thing to hold onto.

There's something calculating and manipulative about her: her self-accusations always feel like gambits. But her feelings for both Haruki and Kazusa are genuine; I don't doubt that. So there's no malice, and maybe not even any intentionality to her manipulations.

There's this stereotype of the Japanese woman, who never opposes the man in her life, but who knows him well enough to play him. It's as if Setsuna slots effortlessly into that role, but doesn't actually make it her own. There's a bedrock of uncertainty and loneliness beneath it all, that does make me feel for her, but not necessarily because she doesn't get what she wants. More because she's stuck in behaviour patterns that don't bring her happiness. (If that makes any sense.)

It's amazing how complex these characters are. You can't really explain them better than the story does. That's stellar story telling.

[Arturia Polaris]

Well I devoured the 13 episodes in a day...

I must say that I'm... shocked? The ending was not what I expected in an anime, but something that reminded me heavily of Tari Tari's ending. Real life amplifying it's way into anime is something that is really great, and not shown too often.

You know what? You may love her, you may have even broken up with Setsuna, but guess what. It's too late. Way too late. You hurt her, she's hurt, she decided to leave and you just managed to see her off, nothing more.

No happy ending, no *plane leaves but she stays*. This is real life. Bittersweet ending. But extremely satisfying.

I thoroughly enjoyed this anime.

8/10

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

So there's no malice, and maybe not even any intentionality to her manipulations.

You know its hard for me to judge, I would agree that there is no intent at malice, she's not some demon, but her actions do feel deliberate. She's almost deliberately playing against herself in constantly putting Kazusa and Haruki in proximity, but its more about her chasing her own rather impossible dream. But all the same she's either ignorant or turning a blind eye on Kazusa's feelings as if they'd magically disappear, likewise for Haruki but he was a bit more easy going. Kazusa, inept as she is at life, basically had her one good thing stolen from out underneath her feet.

At the end of the day, she came of as cruel to herself and to Haruki but especially to Kazusa. I think the flashbacks paint that picture well enough about how much of a hell Kazusa was going through in the background. It wasn't a deliberate cruelty but it is one fitting a manipulator playing for a house of cards.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Vena

You know its hard for me to judge, I would agree that there is no intent at malice, she's not some demon, but her actions do feel deliberate. She's almost deliberately playing against herself in constantly putting Kazusa and Haruki in proximity, but its more about her chasing her own rather impossible dream.

I agree. That's totally deliberate, and it's sort of hard to grasp, but I feel part of it might be her giving Haruki and Kazusa the opportunity to finally make up their minds.

It's an awful situation, really. Setsuna can see that they won't act on their desires, and thus she can waltz in and "win". But she doesn't want to win like that. Part of it is that she's thinking of others, but yet another part is selfish: if she doesn't overcome Kazusa she'll haunt their relationship like a spectre forever. The most straightforward way would be to force a decision, but that would make everything confrontational and she risks losing everything. There's existential anxiety in this for her: by forcing a decision she risks losing both her only friends.

And it's even more complex, because I think she has a natural "idol" personality. She's a great "frontman" for the band. The mic is hers. She's the singer, the star. Remember how she was playing with her hair while she was talking with Haruki about that popularity contest? She does enjoy the attention - but it's nothing substantial, and it gets in the way. Haruki asking her to help carry those boards must have been so unsually mundane that it just broke through her patterns for a moment.

The outfit she chose for Kazusa? The entire onsen scene? I've always had the impression that she was trying to get Haruki to see her rival as a woman. I think the idea is that, if she loses Haruki through Kazausa and Haruki's own decisions, they're less likely to abandon her than if she's the one to "cause trouble", i.e. force a decision. What I'm not sure about is how much of this she is able to put into words, admit to herself, or even realise in the first place.

Kazusa, inept as she is at life, basically had her one good thing stolen from out underneath her feet.

I wouldn't put it like that. Reconciling with her mom and going to Vienna seem to be, quite apart from the love-triangle-fiasco, a good thing for her. Ask yourself the question: should she forsake this opportunity for highschool passion that might not really last?

There's a self-defeating, moping, nobody-understands-me trait about Kasuza that quits before ever taking a risk, and this also gets in the way with her mother (not only Haruki). I loved the way she communicates by music piece choices, but that's pretty much a silent scream: please notice how I feel. And if Haruki had noticed, say, her playing "Liebestraum" ("Love Dream") after the concert, and acted upon, could she have responded in kind?

I strongly suspect that, if it weren't for Setsuna's alternate scenario, they'd just crush their highschool lives away and then graduate and go their ways.
They both basically bounced off Setsuna and landed in each other's arms, and they know it, which makes things doubly hard for them.

A lot of the trouble near the end comes from the fact that Kazusa is reconciling with her mom and leaving to work on her professional future. But if she leaves and Setsuna remains...

If anything, it's Setsuna who's left without much else. Kazusa has the potential to become a professional musician, and it's clear that music is very close to her emotional core? Setsuna? She's a good singer, and might make a good idol for while, but then? If anything she comes across as the stereotypica, dare I say professional, wife.

It's not such an easy situation to work through. It's a rather complex weave of three-way guilt (two-ways for everyone).

At the end of the day, she came of as cruel to herself and to Haruki but especially to Kazusa. I think the flashbacks paint that picture well enough about how much of a hell Kazusa was going through in the background. It wasn't a deliberate cruelty but it is one fitting a manipulator playing for a house of cards.

Kazusa was playing the silent martyr, communicating her feelings mostly indirectly via her piano. Haruki thought he wasn't good enough. Setsuna saw that situation and saw her chance. Take it and you're cruel, leave it and nobody gets anything. It's not such an easy situation. "Get together already, or let me have my way." Except that's not Setsuna's personality.

Btw, I'm totally and utterly in Kazusa's camp. I like her looks and style better; I like her personality better; and I prefer her piano playing to Setsuna's singing. It's a lot easier to sympathise with her than with Setsuna, and at the airport scene, I wasn't feeling bad for Setsuna. With the birthday party, though? That was hard to take for me.

The problem with being able to sympathise with Kazusa is that I also realise how much of her prison is of her own making. If I were to rate culpability, she'd certainly end up with the lowest score. But I suspect that's really just my bias. And rating culpability doesn't solve any problems, anyway.

[Vena]

Spoiler for For space!:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I agree. That's totally deliberate, and it's sort of hard to grasp, but I feel part of it might be her giving Haruki and Kazusa the opportunity to finally make up their minds.

It's an awful situation, really. Setsuna can see that they won't act on their desires, and thus she can waltz in and "win". But she doesn't want to win like that. Part of it is that she's thinking of others, but yet another part is selfish: if she doesn't overcome Kazusa she'll haunt their relationship like a spectre forever. The most straightforward way would be to force a decision, but that would make everything confrontational and she risks losing everything. There's existential anxiety in this for her: by forcing a decision she risks losing both her only friends.

I genuinely don't think she was trying to be the hero. It was an unintentional side effect but I don't think the thought crossed her mind at all, I think she was genuinely trying to build a house of cards where she, Haruki, and Kazusa could be together. If she wanted to force a decision, she didn't need to get into a relationship with Haruki as she did (and she even admits she was taking advantage) before hand unless she knows the outcome, at which point she's knowingly set herself up for a failure that drags everyone down with her. I think trying to make her seem anything short of personally-invested is stretching it, I mean we know she likes to win and get her way, they establish that as early as the first episode.

I'm going to quote you out of order a bit:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I strongly suspect that, if it weren't for Setsuna's alternate scenario, they'd just crush their highschool lives away and then graduate and go their ways.
They both basically bounced off Setsuna and landed in each other's arms, and they know it, which makes things doubly hard for them.

I don't think this is true. The flashbacks show Kazusa slowly inching out her shell towards Haruki, and Haruki makes a lot of effort through the normal early run to get noticed (which you can only notice in rewatching). Setsuna realized it, that's why she jumped in where she did. If she dallies? They would have eventually taken that next step at that crucial moment. Its a combination of jealousy and a worry of the inevitable. She seized the moment as she said so herself.

Spoiler for TSR: Maruto side material (dream alternate):

If she doesn't get in the way, it takes like a week after the festival for the pieces to fall into place. I'd recommend reading this short omake, its not a spoiler for future parts. Its just a "what if".

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I wouldn't put it like that. Reconciling with her mom and going to Vienna seem to be, quite apart from the love-triangle-fiasco, a good thing for her. Ask yourself the question: should she forsake this opportunity for highschool passion that might not really last?

There's a self-defeating, moping, nobody-understands-me trait about Kasuza that quits before ever taking a risk, and this also gets in the way with her mother (not only Haruki). I loved the way she communicates by music piece choices, but that's pretty much a silent scream: please notice how I feel. And if Haruki had noticed, say, her playing "Liebestraum" ("Love Dream") after the concert, and acted upon, could she have responded in kind?

I don't disagree, I meant it more that, in Kazusa's life to that moment, Haruki was literally her only beam of light outside of her turbulent relationship with her mother. We can make judgments like this because we are the audience, but put yourself in the shoes of a social inept young girl who, for who knows how many years, has been treated as unwanted and unloved, finally found someone who cared.

If you were raised like she was, you'd probably have about the self-worth of a snail on a sunny day.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

If anything, it's Setsuna who's left without much else. Kazusa has the potential to become a professional musician, and it's clear that music is very close to her emotional core? Setsuna? She's a good singer, and might make a good idol for while, but then? If anything she comes across as the stereotypica, dare I say professional, wife.

Setsuna is a natural idol, as you said, that means she has a magnetic and attractive personality. That alone means she can become a natural member for society (easily accepted, easily accepting) and, with proper education... which I'd imagine she'd get in college (as we know she's going there), will lead her to find a comfortable job. Top it off with a working and loving family and friends all around, she's more than fine for the future.

Being a world class musician sounds great on paper but consider what Kazusa has to work with: no friends, asocial, a turbulent mother-daughter relationship, and a stuffed teddy. (And the purported 10 hours a day practice time isn't about to open up doors for her to meet new people. )

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Btw, I'm totally and utterly in Kazusa's camp. I like her looks and style better; I like her personality better; and I prefer her piano playing to Setsuna's singing. It's a lot easier to sympathise with her than with Setsuna, and at the airport scene, I wasn't feeling bad for Setsuna. With the birthday party, though? That was hard to take for me.

I'm not really caring about shipping. I mean the story is over and the cards were pretty much laid to bare.

I just never found myself, through the show, actually feeling bad for Setsuna. If she hadn't tried to keep the three together after "gunning" for Haruki, my opinion would have been wholly different. But alas the webs we weave...

[Dawnstorm]

Heh, I see your spoiler box and try to keep this short. It's not like I really disagree with you that much.

First, I think I didn't make myself quite clear enough:

Originally Posted by Vena

I genuinely don't think she was trying to be the hero.

Neither do I.

It was an unintentional side effect but I don't think the thought crossed her mind at all,

A lot of it could possibly be unconcious, or unpleasant and suppressed. I'm not clear on what I think here.

I think she was genuinely trying to build a house of cards where she, Haruki, and Kazusa could be together.

Definitely. I was a bit undecided with the outfit she pushed on Kazusa. She may just have wanted her to look cool there (and she did quite a good job, I'd say; she could be a style consultant, heh.) But at the onsen when she forcefully removed Kazusa's towel right in front of Haruki? Unless she was trying to upgrade the house of cards to a menage á trois this is a bit strange, especially seeing what she knows. What do you make of this?

If she wanted to force a decision, she didn't need to get into a relationship with Haruki as she did (and she even admits she was taking advantage) before hand unless she knows the outcome, at which point she's knowingly set herself up for a failure that drags everyone down with her. I think trying to make her seem anything short of personally-invested is stretching it, I mean we know she likes to win and get her way, they establish that as early as the first episode.

Actually you get that upside down: if she didn't want to be with Haruki, she wouldn't have much of a motivation to force a decision. With her knowledge, she's living a lie, and on some level that's got to hurt. So, yes, part of her sets herself up for failure, while the other part plays poor little victim hoping to be rescued by her two knights.

And she knows this about herself, and thinks she's terrible. That's why, on a more meta level, there's also a sense of self-punishment in that.

I definitely agree that she likes to win. Even if it's not her herself, but her friend: remember how she rooted for Kazusa at the recital? I think that was genuine; of the three, I think she was the only one who cared about "winning" for its own sake. There's a clear competitive streak to her.

I don't think this is true. The flashbacks show Kazusa slowly inching out her shell towards Haruki, and Haruki makes a lot of effort through the normal early run to get noticed (which you can only notice in rewatching). Setsuna realized it, that's why she jumped in where she did. If she dallies? They would have eventually taken that next step at that crucial moment. Its a combination of jealousy and a worry of the inevitable. She seized the moment as she said so herself.

Yeah, they may have had a chance. And there's definitely a moment of urgency to Setsuna's actions (there's quite a clear time-stamp for that in the show, too.) I think I may have been a bit too negative here.

If you were raised like she was, you'd probably have about the self-worth of a snail on a sunny day.

I'm speaking from experience when I say that "losing" this is easier, and "gaining" this is scary, because you have to face yourself in quite unpleasant ways. With a low feeling of self-worth (and on top of that others praising you for all the wrong things), you protect yourself from everything that comes your way. "Losing the one ray of hope" is actually an acceptable sacrifice, if it means you can rescue your precious self-pity. That may be a bit harsh, but a lot of Kazusa's behaviour stems from the idea that getting together with Haruki is more scary than losing him (though losing him hurts more). That's why I think she had to make up with mum first, before the two of them stand a chance. (But again, I may be putting too much of my own experience into this. Kazusa's character hit me very close to home.)

Setsuna is a natural idol, as you said, that means she has a magnetic and attractive personality. That alone means she can become a natural member for society (easily accepted, easily accepting) and, with proper education... which I'd imagine she'd get in college (as we know she's going there), will lead her to find a comfortable job. Top it off with a working and loving family and friends all around, she's more than fine for the future.

That's she image she projects. If it were working out for her so well, she wouldn't be having those issues that make her so... clingy, needy, whatever the right word is, here.

Being a world class musician sounds great on paper but consider what Kazusa has to work with: no friends, asocial, a turbulent mother-daughter relationship, and a stuffed teddy. (And the purported 10 hours a day practice time isn't about to open up doors for her to meet new people. )

Absolutely true. Especially if she becomes a solo artist.

I'm not really caring about shipping. I mean the story is over and the cards were pretty much laid to bare.

I'm not a shipper myself. I was more trying to lay bare my bias (see some comments above).

I just never found myself, through the show, actually feeling bad for Setsuna. If she hadn't tried to keep the three together after "gunning" for Haruki, my opinion would have been wholly different. But alas the webs we weave...

Heh, for me it's quite the other way round. If she'd not tried that, she'd come across as even more competitive to me, and then I'd probably feel something like "sore loser", rather than the "you silly, self-sabotaging thing you" feeling I have now.

***

Long, long ago, I think I said something like I was trying to keep this short. I typed so much, I'm fuzzy on the details...

[Enternal]

This is rather funny in a way. I'm actually in the Setsuna camp more than the Kazusa camp but... seeing how Dawnstorm and a few others are in the Kazusa camp yet do try to understand Setsuna makes me surprisingly happy. It probably is because there were quite a lot of people in other places who are in the Kazusa camp yet don't try to understand Setsuna and instead set up "generalizations" about her without understanding the depth of her character.

I could say that Setsuna is quite a more complex character with many layers compared to Kazusa and Haruki and because of that very complexity, makes White Album so much more interesting. On the other hand, I somehow still feel that some people's judgement of Setsuna is extremely unfair (but not so in the pages here as AnimeSuki where everyone is trying to figure out Setsuna). Like some screaming how Setsuna is stealing Haruki and the likes but the fact that what she did and how she played the proximity game made Haruki and Kazusa actually ACT instead of just letting the status quo the way it was. The matter is, there are many people out there who still try to court someone even knowing that person already likes someone else. That's human flaws and it's very common. What makes it interesting is that this very flaw that Setsuna has, she then proceed to play the self-punishing game with it. I have seen many who "steal" other people potential relationship but they rarely regret it and think of "well, they did not act so I have the right to" which is correct in a realistic way but may not be the best morally. Besides, at the very moment in time, Haruki is NOT Kazusa's boyfriend and Kazusa and Setsuna both knew that they both love him but Setsuna acted first since... Kazusa and Haruki weren't doing anything. Nothing. Nada.

This whole debate thing is interesting in that it does not only showed the flaws of humans IN the show but how people on the OUTSIDE think about each individual characters. Because of how bias any viewer can be, we will tend to favor one character over another without giving a fair enough thinking and viewing of the character themselves for BOTH sides. I could even say that if Kazusa went for Haruki first while already knowing that Setsuna likes him too, can't I say that Kazusa is "stealing" Haruki? You could say that "well Touma knows him first" but "early bird gets the worm" is true to is it not?

And here is the odd part. Although I'm in the Setsuna camp, if I were to get into a relationship with anyone, I might actually go for Touma due to her more "simple" nature of her personality unlike the layers and layers of complexity that is Setsuna. Yet at the same time, getting into a relationship with someone like Setsuna who is extremely observational and have a very good understanding of not only of others but including herself is not a bad thing since it will be easy for both to support one another.

Ah... the complexity... in the end though, you just simply glad/hope that you will NEVER be in such a situation.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Leon_Lelouch

no really.... YnS was really an exceptional of the eroge made into anime series, it even made me shock looking at it as the eroge itself was not really hardcore (usual kind of choice, liked by a girl, and so on)

How was it exceptional in the sense you're talking about? The anime's less-than-family-friendly bits weren't more hardcore compared to what was in the original game's CGs. Or are you talking about something else?

Originally Posted by Leon_Lelouch

She used a false name in the first game which includes ero in the game and consider the PS3 version to be the first time that she was taking part as the seiyuu, so why would she easily show their PC version towards public under her real name (even though we could already know even from the voice if we compare it)

It's one of the worst-kept secrets in Japan that famous seiyuus like Hitomi Nabatame and Shizuka Itou are (or at least, were) doing 18+ roles that involved a lot of (censored) noises. The YnS seiyuus didn't mind making similar noises for the anime adaptation, but Hitomi Nabatame has one problem this season they didn't; she was starring as Mana Aida in DokiDoki! Precure, a kid's show. I can't imagine that the reaction from "concerned parents" would be positive if they knew that one of their elementary schoolers' favourite characters was voiced by someone who did a lot of 18+ roles (and Hitomi Nabatame still does).

Originally Posted by Leon_Lelouch

well I don't know about it's popularity towards female, but from the radio I'd heard when Nabatame and Yonezawa talked, some of their female friends were actually enjoyed playing it too and consider to have an all girls party while playing the game (I don't know if it's real or not, but they just talked like that)

I wonder if Haruki is considered enough of a "pretty boy" character to be attractive to female gamers. The "otome game" genre is focussed around pretty boy characters catering to one heroine (one recent anime adaptation of such a game was Uta no Prince-sama 1000%), and Setsuna does remind me of a common otome game heroine archetype, in that while she's pretty she has to work to get the attention of the man she's set her sights on.

Originally Posted by Leon_Lelouch

As far as I know, school uniform's button is actually one of Japanese school tradition that can be considered as a present which is usually given to important person or such (especially the second button), but maybe Kazusa didn't want to have Haruki's button to be taken by anyone else (especially Setsuna since Haruki hadn't even given it to her) so she took it all

Those "souvenirs" that Kazusa took will certainly be cold comfort when she's all alone and pining for Haruki. Then again, Haruki took Kazusa's virginity (although it was a mutual exchange) and that will be cold comfort for him if, as he believes, he will never be able to see Kazusa again.

Originally Posted by totoum

If I want "my hips are moving on their own" corny lines I'd just watch hentai.

Originally Posted by Mentar

You know what? How they were depicting this scene was _perfect_ in my eyes, because I could _so_ relate with former personal experiences. You're with someone and passion is overwhelming you. Still, especially in Japanese culture, you generally don't want your surroundings to know what you're doing. What happens is that you're breathing heavily, with gasps and light, short moans, but if there is one thing you definitely do NOT do is squeal like porno queens shouting how deep the manly tool is reaching. This is unrealistic BS and - at least for me - a total turnoff. I'm glad that they did NOT depict it that way, and that whoever directed this scene continues to go for _realism_.

Who said anything about "porno queen" lines/screams? You can make very suggestive sounds without anything resembling those (or even coherent words). And you'd think that if this is the last time the two can foreseeably see one another, they'd have no reason to hold back their voices, because their sleeping together is one way of saying "we'll enjoy our time together as much as we can, the consequences be damned!".

And as for an example of suggestive sounds, remember the sounds that Setsuna made when she was looking for the right thing to wear on her date? Those could be very suggestive if you changed the context to an 18+ one. Try this soundtrack from an M-rated horror game, Silent Hill 4, which was released by Konami in 2004. I think its title says it all.

It's no "porno queen" sound clip, but it is quite suggestive.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Who said anything about "porno queen" lines/screams? You can make very suggestive sounds without anything resembling those (or even coherent words). And you'd think that if this is the last time the two can foreseeably see one another, they'd have no reason to hold back their voices, because their sleeping together is one way of saying "we'll enjoy our time together as much as we can, the consequences be damned!".

But that's not what they are doing. Both of them are still guilt-riddled and desperate, not "let the world know we're together" minded.

Sorry, we have to agree to disagree. The way it was depicted - quiet, hi-tension, suppressed gasps instead of "sexy moans" struck me as highly realistic. Been there, done that, so to say, I could relate. And I want to give the show an extra commendation for this realism, instead of criticizing it for not repeating the mistakes of most H anime.

[germanturkey]

^^ yeah, one thing this show does really well (you know, one of about 300 things this show does better than others of the same genre) is it depicts realistically what people actually do in these situations.

also, i think i have a problem. i've gone about a week now where i've leafed through at least one episode of 10-13 daily. haha...

[Meltyred]

Seeing the various posts about how Setsuna ends up better off after ep 13(In general from what I saw), I can't help but want to point out a few things.

1. Touma basically abandons her friends and left things unresolved, there wasn't a clear break up, she didn't reject Haruki nor did she fully accept him, she just left him hanging attached to her and left.

2. Touma then now is going to drown herself in her practices, distracting her from the torment of the memories of this time while she moves on in life. (For those that think her mother-daughter relation will be shaky, this is definitely false. Touma Youko understands her daughter very well, and despite not meeting her for 3 years, upon seeing her daughter again, she actually understands that her daughter is in love with someone who already has a girlfriend, and gives a her a way to escape the pain.)

3. To Haruki and Setsuna who were left behind, they basically are kept bound by memories of Touma. They cannot escape the torment because they will see each other every day (they graduated to the same school), and while Haruki will probably escape by finding part time work to distract himself, I doubt Setsuna will try it. She is too in love with Haruki to find another person, and she would be suffering constantly, because to her friends and family, they are technically still a "couple". Though Iyo and Takeya will eventually realise, Setsuna will probably hide it from her family to protect Haruki, yet at the same time tie Haruki to herself.

So in the end, basically while Touma will be able to manage to continue, Haruki and Setsuna will suffer more from the burden or their guilt and sadness. To those who think Haruki will break up with Setsuna or leave her, this will not happen, as implied by the ending scene. Setsuna clings on to Haruki, and even warns him if Haruki does not push her away, she will stay by his side forever. Haruki, affected by the guilt of his betrayal (cheating on her, remember he never told Setsuna about his one night stand, though Setsuna herself probably picked up the hints, however much she would prefer Haruki to be honest with her.) At this point, Haruki is basically a former wreck of himself and will not have the courage to break their relation off.

It's interesting how Haruki started off seeming a average person whose persistence is his strong trait, but along the way we see more of his flaws, namely his indecisiveness and lack of courage to make decisions that while would be for the best, would hurt people. This spirals into a trainwreck that leaves all parties hurt (aka ep 13) and he will often make choices that he feels is right, not thinking through the consequences. (Example being him promising Setsuna to never leave her, despite at this point being already attracted to Touma.) He also has a inability to read the mood most of the time with Touma (both being a plus and minus, former being how he manages to be noticed by Touma as a male, rather than just a classmate. Latter would be how he talked about another girl (Setsuna) in front of Touma happily, leading to him being kicked out of the room.)

Although I could write more about Touma's character, I better stop before I end up creating a wall of text criticizing her flaws.
Also Setsuna is the most complicated character in the whole series, to the point where every bit of her actions can be talked about, because of how calculated they are. (no really, everything she does is to manipulate people slightly in one way or another.)
Edit: I hope this series get a sub thread, though it might be a little late for that...

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Mentar

But that's not what they are doing. Both of them are still guilt-riddled and desperate, not "let the world know we're together" minded

The fact that they're willing to go "all the way," betraying their mutual friend Setsuna and risking a potentially-career-destroying pregnancy on Kasuza's part as part of the bargain (she won't be able to practice very well while pregnant, and people will definitely ask questions as to who the father is, or why she's repeating Youko's vicious cycle), to me pretty much does speak to their "damn the rest of the world" sentiment.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Sorry, we have to agree to disagree. The way it was depicted - quiet, hi-tension, suppressed gasps instead of "sexy moans" struck me as highly realistic. Been there, done that, so to say, I could relate. And I want to give the show an extra commendation for this realism, instead of criticizing it for not repeating the mistakes of most H anime.

As I said, it doesn't have to be loud (even gasps can sound suggestive in the right context, as I said when I referred to Setsuna's "what should I wear" sounds, or even the gasps made by Haruka from Amagami in episode 3). I would have been happy with the kind of "objectionable sounds" they used for episode 4 of Yosuga no Sora, where Haruka and Kazuha consummate their relationship. Sadly, despite YnS proving that you can get away with putting that stuff out on broadcast TV, Haruki and Kazusa's encounter seems unbearably tame (especially considering the buildup each series used to those moments) by comparison.

One way around this would be for Takahiro Mizushima and Hitomi Nabatame to be credited under pseudonyms for this episode so as to let them put their eroge voice-acting experience to better use for the BD release of this episode. Of course, they would almost certainly record that part individually by themselves (I still remember another poster here talking about how Shizuka Itou, an eroge-voicing veteran, was so embarrassed at making eroge-type noises in front of her co-workers during the recording of Amagami's 3rd episode that she ran to Yuu Asakawa, herself an eroge veteran, and cried) to save them some embarrassment.

[greensoulreaper]

Yeah, while I enjoyed this anime, the end made me feel so sorry for Setsuna. The poor girl seems to have abandonment issues. I wonder if well get another season since the VN has much more characters/story than what we've seen so far.

[Meltyred]

Probably will need 2 seasons, one being 2 cour while the other 1 cour.

[Guardian Enzo]

3374 Blu-rays for V.1. All things considered that's really not half-bad. If it can maintain a 3K average that might be good enough.