Gundam 00 Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

This may be because of the low particle rate the 00 Raiser had, due to the recent use of Trans-AM Burst.

That's right. I don't know about the viewers cognitive abilities but things like that make you think why a charge performed by a TDS 00 Raiser got deflected with one beam saber so easily. Furthermore, 00 Raiser got thrown so badly. If that does not show output difference then what else? Do we really have to get a - 'Watch out, Viewers! Output is at 30% right now' screen every single time?

People just perceive, not think.

Cherudim vs Arche fight was a bad joke for me so don't mention it ever again. I'm still pissed about it.(How could someone who beated two Gundams about 10 episodes ago lose to the worst Meister from the four in favorable ground?)
And about Setsuna and his so called skill: He always beated Graham because he had a better suit.

Stating that Ali is an omnipotent pilot, not here but generally, is very arguable. Lockon in S1 did great against Ali, Lyle had considerable skills with short guns. The fight went as it should. Lyle wasn't winning, he was losing slowly. The most probable solution is that maybe Ali is not such an amazing pilot people deem him to be, or just that others got better, which I believe is the case here.

About Graham. The only time when Setsuna and Graham clashed with Setsuna having a better suit was in S1, though the ending of ep 25 corrected the said duel, where Setsuna had a completely underpowered suit and Graham was it his best. The second and last duel has shown that Setsuna is indeed a much better pilot. You can have all the speed in your hands or the all the power but you won't be able to perform a sequence attack or a blade grasp without skill, period.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Urei

As we all have noticed, Setsuna did develop as a pilot so comparing him to his previous self from part 1 does not stand, also, don't forget ep 25 where Setsuna in a powered down Exia beat the crap out of fully powered GN Flag and vice versa. Graham is certainly not a better pilot and so is Ali. They may have had their spot in Part One but they are left behind in part 2. Especially Ali, fighting a long distance type Cherudim in close quarters with a melee specialized suit with presumably better performance and performing like he did. Didn't even managed to do much against half dead Setsuna. Same for Graham. Those are the things we were shown quite clearly.

The fight between Graham and Setsuna was pretty fast and decisive. Saying that it was a 'near' victory in an overstatement. What we were shown is that Setsuna exceeds in melee fight during that sequence. Not even once I saw Graham have an upper hand. Actually it was the other way around. I'm positive no one thinks that the fact that Setsuna threw his connected Swords II at Graham was done with a hope of actually defeating him.

Sword I R2 as I'll call it from now on has the needed power in burst, we saw that. The question is how much speed and mobility would Exia R2 get in burst and how long would it last. An you meantioned, it may be far less then Susano because of the lower count of GN Particle vents. Still, unless Susano activates Trans-Am the fight could go either way. That or Exia runs out of 'burst'.

Are u serious regarding the Gn flag vs. Exia fight?

A powered down Exia vs. A quickly made, rushed GN flag (full powered? I don't think so.)

Underpowered suit vs. INCOMPLETE suit

That's like saying an underfuelled top of the line car vs. something which resembles a car built with metal bars (and cardboard if you want) and an bbq propane can as a fuel exhaust and calling it a race car.

[kakakka]

A car made out of cardboard and metallic bars etc. is too much of exaggeration too be compared to GN-Flag.

Wonder if you can even make it move at a decent speed....

[Papaya]

Originally Posted by kakakka

A car made out of cardboard and metallic bars etc. is too much of exaggeration too be compared to GN-Flag.

Wonder if you can even make it move at a decent speed....

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by kakakka

A car made out of cardboard and metallic bars etc. is too much of exaggeration too be compared to GN-Flag.

Wonder if you can even make it move at a decent speed....

The cardboard is the skin, (comparable to the Flag's weak armour).

metal bars for skeletal frame.

Don't underestimate the power of propane, if there are some engines that use fry oil, propane should be just as efficient


@Papaya: Truly priceless indeed. Good job

[GrahamAker]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Clashing sabers against the Reborns Gundam caused him to be flung into an asteroid at great velocity; it overpowered the 00-Raiser.

indeed 00 raiser got overpowered by ribbons gundam but 00 raiser also overpowered ribbons gundam.look between 8.40 and 9.00 . after ptolemy starts shooting and spreads smoke around ribbons gundam.this gives setsuna chance to strike back. even when ribbons gundam releases those fangs at him and goes for the kill with his beam saber., setsuna destroys the fangs plus overpowers r.gundam while destroying his right arm.

[SonicSP]

And yet Reborns won anyway.

Originally Posted by Urei

That's right. I don't know about the viewers cognitive abilities but things like that make you think why a charge performed by a TDS 00 Raiser got deflected with one beam saber so easily. Furthermore, 00 Raiser got thrown so badly. If that does not show output difference then what else? Do we really have to get a - 'Watch out, Viewers! Output is at 30% right now' screen every single time?

People just perceive, not think.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

This may be because of the low particle rate the 00 Raiser had, due to the recent use of Trans-AM Burst.

I had a suspision of that as well though no concrete info;,since the Condensers were resupplying relatively slow especially to 22.I'm sure the lack of Saji decreased the particle rate slightly as well and that would be a factor.

But in essence,this should not have affected normal performence of the 00 Gundam because it never produces a particle deficit at normal operations.

Single Drive Gundams produce particle deficit in normal battle operations[On average],it means that during battles they use up more particles than the Drive produces,so as time passes the Condensers particle count reduces slowly,the Gundam needs to stop battling to begin the recharging process.

Single Drive Gundams get weakened post Trans-Am because they're Condensers are empty and since the Drive output could not sustain their normal operations performances,their performance drops because of forced low particle usage.

The Twin Drive on the other hand produces alot more particles,and 00 does not suffer from particle defcit during normal operations,it's quick recharge time in 22 is one idea of that.

The other evidence is episode 25,if 00 did not have the particles to cover it's normal operations it's Condensers would not have been recharging in the first place.

Personally,I do believe that 00's output may have been reduced to to effects of Trans-Am Burst,especially since the Condensers looked like they were recharging alot slower than it did in 22,also note the fact that Setsuna went inside Celestial Being for a while and later he came out,they were still recharging.I just think that it was still enough to cover 00's regular operations but slowed the Condenser recharge relative to 22 because there is alot less excess particles.


But I also think it's because Reborns was a better MS in design,plus Ribbons has informational advantage.Reborns also seem pretty at counter melee attacks.

Originally Posted by Urei

Stating that Ali is an omnipotent pilot, not here but generally, is very arguable. Lockon in S1 did great against Ali, Lyle had considerable skills with short guns. The fight went as it should. Lyle wasn't winning, he was losing slowly. The most probable solution is that maybe Ali is not such an amazing pilot people deem him to be, or just that others got better, which I believe is the case here.

About Graham. The only time when Setsuna and Graham clashed with Setsuna having a better suit was in S1, though the ending of ep 25 corrected the said duel, where Setsuna had a completely underpowered suit and Graham was it his best. The second and last duel has shown that Setsuna is indeed a much better pilot. You can have all the speed in your hands or the all the power but you won't be able to perform a sequence attack or a blade grasp without skill, period.

ALi is a skilled pilot,unfortunately he is extremely overconfidant in his abilities to the point of playing around with Lockon rather than going all out on him until he knew he was Neil's brother.

A blade grasp does take some skill but it isn't an amazing feat in MS battles,since the reliance is more on the raw kinetic power of the MS,deflecting the spear beam attacks using a weaker suit seemed moe amazing to me.

And at the end of S1,the GN Flag was a suit constructed in haste,we're not even sure it had Condensers[Except the small ones in the weapons],the Flag had to use an upgrade it wasn't designed as well as having most of it's normal thrusters removed furthermore,the Flag was never intended for space and it had no G-Dampeners on it unlike the Gundams.The Masuruos lacked G-Dampeners as well,straining the pilot when they move too fast.A weakened Exia pretty much evened the odds a little bit.

But in the entire series,there has not been one moment time Setsuna used a technological inferior suit and won,whereas Graham has done it a few times.

[GrahamAker]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

And yet Reborns won anyway.







I had a suspision of that as wellthough no concrete info;,since the Condensers were resupplying relatively slow especially to 22.I'm sure the lack of Saji decreased the particle rate slightly as well and that would be a factor.

But I also think it's because Reborns was a better MS in design,plus Ribbons has informational advantage.Reborns also seem pretty at counter melee attacks.



ALi is a skilled pilot,unfortunately he is extremely overconfidant in his abilities to the point of playing around with Lockon rather than going all out on him.

A blade grasp does take some skill but it isn't an amazing feat in MS battles,since the reliance is more on the raw kinetic power of the MS,deflecting the spear beam attacks using a weaker suit seemed moe amazing to me.

And at the end of S1,the GN Flag was a suit constructed in haste,we're not even sure it had Condensers[Except the small ones in the weapons],the Flag had to use an upgrade it wasn't designed as well as having most of it's normal thrusters removed furthermore,the Flag was never intended for space and it had no G-Dampeners on it unlike the Gundams.The Masuruos lacked G-Dampeners as well,straining the pilot when they move too fast.A weakened Exia pretty much evened the odds a little bit.

But in the entire series,there has not been one moment time Setsuna used a technological inferior suit and won,whereas Graham has done it a few times.

turn your name to grahasp

[Bad wolf]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Cherudim vs Arche fight was a bad joke for me so don't mention it ever again. I'm still pissed about it.(How could someone who beated two Gundams about 10 episodes ago lose to the worst Meister from the four in favorable ground?)

Whut? Worst Miseter? Where are you getting this from? Basing it off ms preference ,next to setsuna, he would probably be the best, Al really didn't do **** till the final 30 fight scene he got and all Tieria did was beamspam bazookas, which, contrary to what seed fans believe, is not hard. Lockon was able to fight off gadessu and Anew up till ribbons mindhacked her and shot her fangs at him before he realised what had happened, and in a half destroyed mobile suit took out Gadessa.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by bhus12

turn your name to grahasp

I actually don't like him very much,I like Setsuna alot better.Though I think Graham is the better pilot.

Originally Posted by Bad wolf

Whut? Worst Miseter? Where are you getting this from? Basing it off ms preference ,next to setsuna, he would probably be the best, Al really didn't do **** till the final 30 fight scene he got and all Tieria did was beamspam bazookas, which, contrary to what seed fans believe, is not hard. Lockon was able to fight off gadessu and Anew up till ribbons mindhacked her and shot her fangs at him before he realised what had happened, and in a half destroyed mobile suit took out Gadessa.

True,I'd say Allelujah without QB is the worst Meister in terms of piloting.Lyle didn't do that bad,he actually scored a few MS victories in Katharon,according to S2 Official Files Volume One.

[GrahamAker]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

I'd say Allelujah without QB is the worst Meister in terms of piloting.

absolutely agreed .but accordingly hallelujah was the star of ep 25. if he had piloted 00 raiser. god knows what would have happened

[SonicSP]

Exactly,it was nice to see Arios owning Garazzo so easily,Veda-less or not.I'm not a big fan of Hallelujah but that scene was pretty sweet.I can almost forgive Sunrise for the lack of Arios doe that scene alone,that being said seeing too much weak Arios isn't fun either.

[Zenemis]

Originally Posted by Urei

That's right. I don't know about the viewers cognitive abilities but things like that make you think why a charge performed by a TDS 00 Raiser got deflected with one beam saber so easily. Furthermore, 00 Raiser got thrown so badly. If that does not show output difference then what else? Do we really have to get a - 'Watch out, Viewers! Output is at 30% right now' screen every single time?

People just perceive, not think.

Referring to 'people' in third person? Do you think you're smarter, better, or special in some way? If you believe you can gauge what people are thinking through a post, you're being conceited.

In my opinion, the scene was designed to exaggerate the monstrous performance of the Reborns Gundam, rather than showing the performance of a particle-drained 00 Raiser. The performance loss suffered by the 00-Raiser when operating on low particle reserve has rarely been shown as severe.

[GrahamAker]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Referring to 'people' in third person? Do you think you're smarter, better, or special in some way? If you believe you can gauge what people are thinking through a post, you're being conceited.

In my opinion, the scene was designed to exaggerate the monstrous performance of the Reborns Gundam, rather than showing the performance of a particle-drained 00 Raiser. The performance loss suffered by the 00-Raiser when operating on low particle reserve has rarely been shown as severe.

chil!!!!!!!!

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Referring to 'people' in third person? Do you think you're smarter, better, or special in some way? If you believe you can gauge what people are thinking through a post, you're being conceited.

In my opinion, the scene was designed to exaggerate the monstrous performance of the Reborns Gundam, rather than showing the performance of a particle-drained 00 Raiser. The performance loss suffered by the 00-Raiser when operating on low particle reserve has rarely been shown as severe.

There are some obvious things and less obvious. This board has seen a fair amount of trolling and some pretty exaggerated misconceptions. I'm sorry if you think my post grouped you with the 'people'. If you think your explanation is better then so be it. It's your choice.

What I'm saying is that something like this was shown in the series over and over again. The suits power was even estimated by a battle with another suit in an identical situation. Considering the fact that it's an official info that a suit goes into powered down state after using Trans-Am until it recharges it's condensers the most logical explanation is the one given before. Other things are fan conceptions. Of course, Reborns was at it's full power, of course, 00R was recharging after Burst, of course the difference of power in that situation is monstrous. We saw how 00R flew into CB after one swing from Reborns.

I'm asking, isn't is a tad strange that the TDS 00R performing a charge at such speed got deflected so easily, with Reborns not even moving an inch from it's spot. If 00R was at full power or so then that would mean that Reborns was, like what, 5+ times more powerful? Even Exia vs Flag at the start of the series or any other blade clash didn't show performance difference between 2 fully powered suits of that caliber. It's very unlikely that Reborns Gundam managed to obtain a performance 5 or more times larger than 00R.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Are we sure the Reborn Gundam and 00 clashed swords? To me, it looked like the 00 was going in for a slice, and the Reborn Gundam pulled out its beam saber quickly, causing the 00 to swiftly back away. Crashing into the surface. You also see a huge slash that missed the 00. So I'm thinking the 00 got suprised and needed to quickly withdraw.

[Urei]

That's kind of hard to confirm and disapprove as well The only possible explanation would be that the animation, Setsuna's and 00R's reaction is typical for parrying a slash.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

Are we sure the Reborn Gundam and 00 clashed swords? To me, it looked like the 00 was going in for a slice, and the Reborn Gundam pulled out its beam saber quickly, causing the 00 to swiftly back away. Crashing into the surface. You also see a huge slash that missed the 00. So I'm thinking the 00 got suprised and needed to quickly withdraw.

Rather unlikely as well, considering that in any scene regarding a beam saber evasion, the mobile suits are never shown to overshoot themselves, let alone crash into something, and especially not with pilots as skilled as Setsuna that can get the 00 to stop at whim - if it was an intentional withdrawal, Setsuna wouldn't even have crashed into the Celestial Being considering how far they were from it unless Setsuna was avoiding a beam saber several hundred meters long. And we do see an implied hit being made on the 00 in the form of sparks and the appropriate sound effect.

[SonicSP]

It was a pretty damn big saber,at least during the first slash.I think the saber were made to spread the particle in that slash,so that instead of a concentrated sharp slash it was one that was weak in concentration but wide and plenty to blew 00 away.The second slash was more smaller but it was sharper and cut of one of 00's wings.

Another misperception that Setsuna made was Reborns's abilities,like the 00 itself,it's versatile on a high level.except where 00 specialised a little bit more to close range assault,Reborns design was more towards massive long range beam spams,it's not suppose to be dancing around flying like 00.But it's still possesses great melee abilities,just like 00 has some powerful large beams as well.

But from observation,Reborns seemed to be good at counter melee attacks,Setsuna went in flying the first time under the assumption that such a suit will not be able counter such a direct attack but it certainly can,probably with Twin Drive among other things helped the MS achieve such a feat.

Reborn's second melee was a counterattack as well.

His third slash,however was a pre-emptive slash where it went and slashed 00 instead and combined with the smoke,Reborns lost that round.

Personally,I also think why Ribbons can counter 00's slahes so well is because of information.Ribbons have been observing Setsuna for a while[Probably also because of his interest in the Twin Drive as well], and knows how he fights,how he uses his tactics and what abilities 00 can do.In contrast with Setsuna who has not seen how Ribbons fight,never seen Reborns before and knows none of Reborn's abilities.This may have helped Ribbons knows Setsuna's tendencies as well as helping him knowing how to counter 00's attacks.




[EDIT]
Wait....what?Revive is sexless....?Innoveda gender is getting confusing by the minute.Seemed like a guy to me.......

[GrahamAker]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

It was a pretty damn big saber,at least during the first slash.I think the saber were made to spread the particle in that slash,so that instead of a concentrated sharp slash it was one that was weak in concentration but wide and plenty to blew 00 away.The second slash was more smaller but it was sharper and cut of one of 00's wings.

Another misperception that Setsuna made was Reborns's abilities,like the 00 itself,it's versatile on a high level.except where 00 specialised a little bit more to close range assault,Reborns design was more towards massive long range beam spams,it's not suppose to be dancing around flying like 00.But it's still possesses great melee abilities,just like 00 has some powerful large beams as well.

But from observation,Reborns seemed to be good at counter melee attacks,Setsuna went in flying the first time under the assumption that such a suit will not be able counter such a direct attack but it certainly can,probably with Twin Drive among other things helped the MS achieve such a feat.

Reborn's second melee was a counterattack as well.

His third slash,however was a pre-emptive slash where it went and slashed 00 instead and combined with the smoke,Reborns lost that round.

Personally,I also think why Ribbons can counter 00's slahes so well is because of information.Ribbons have been observing Setsuna for a while[Probably also because of his interest in the Twin Drive as well], and knows how he fights,how he uses his tactics and what abilities 00 can do.In contrast with Setsuna who has not seen how Ribbons fight,never seen Reborns before and knows none of Reborn's abilities.This may have helped Ribbons knows Setsuna's tendencies as well as helping him knowing how to counter 00's attacks.




[EDIT]
Wait....what?Revive is sexless....?Innoveda gender is getting confusing by the minute.Seemed like a guy to me.......

gundambakha!!!! 100%