Final Fantasy Dissidia 2

[Jan-Poo]

What I meant to say is that I can't picture her fighting on her own. What you suggested is similar to the option number 2 I also imagined, however I can't see that happening for the same reasons.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Then, no offense, but you lack imagination. I can easily see an interesting fighting style being created for a Summoner character. It's simple, all they have to do is have the summons instantly appear beside Yuna once you press the attack button, executing their respective move (Hell Fire, Diamond Dust, whatever), and then *poof* disappearing away.

Sorta like Folklore, then.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

The hints weren't just strong, they were slapping you in the face. If you talk to Kiros and Ward at the Ragnarok before the end, they say it's a good thing Squall doesn't look like his father and that he has his mother's eyes. It doesn't get anymore obvious than that. It's one of those things, like Shadow and Relm in FFVI, where you just have to think for a second and realize "If it's not supposed to be true, then why would they even put all of this in the game?"

Also, never mind all that. It is official either way, for it was confirmed in the Ultimania.

Hence, the "pretty strong" hints I mentioned. Still, neither acted on it in the series itself, so Missed Moment of Awesome?

[Vicious108]

I suppose, yes. Which is why Laguna being in Dissidia also has plenty of storyline potential.

Laguna: "Ellone never told you what happened to your father..."

Lol, that'd be nice. But like I said it's younger Laguna so he shouldn't even be aware of it himself, but given all the memory hijinks going on in Duodecim, who knows. Even Cloud and Tifa don't remember each other.

[yezhanquan]

Laguna: Yo, Squall. How was your father?
Squall: ...I never knew who he was. (Hey, this fellow looks like me.)
Laguna: Oh. Then, don't worry. Since I'm the oldest around, I'll be everyone's dad!
Squall: (What an idiot. But, you got to admit: it isn't half bad to have him around.)

[Kafriel]

Laguna: "Ellone never told you what happened to your father..."

And don't forget a dramatic Squall VS Laguna beforehand, just to hear the "I'm your father!" line with awesome FF bgm

given all the memory hijinks going on in Duodecim, who knows. Even Cloud and Tifa don't remember each other.

Seriously, what's the point of killing the character relationships, it's not like this is an FF fanfiction or anything...(no offense to fanfics ). One of my favourite parts in Dissidia was the fact that the characters already knew each other and acted on those relationships to enact the war (Golbez and Jecht being prime examples).

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Laguna: Yo, Squall. How was your father?
Squall: ...I never knew who he was. (Hey, this fellow looks like me.)
Laguna: Oh. Then, don't worry. Since I'm the oldest around, I'll be everyone's dad!
Squall: (What an idiot. But, you got to admit: it isn't half bad to have him around.)

Or maybe...

Laguna: Squall, sorry to say this all of a sudden, but I'm your father. Now we have a lot of catching up to do, so come here with daddy! *hugs Squall and takes him away*
Squall: Hey wait! What the- are you crazy!?
Tidus: ...*glances in jealousy*

Speaking of Laguna, now that I think about it, never mind my previous guess of Tomokazu Seki (though he'd still be great), I've come to realize that Shinichiro Miki would be the perfect voice for him! Man I hope it's him, and that whoever it is, they announce it soon. Laguna is the only character announced for Duodecim that doesn't already have a previously established voice, so I'm really curious.

[Jan-Poo]

You know I've always had the displeasing feeling that Laguna really cared about Ellone more than his real son.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You know I've always had the displeasing feeling that Laguna really cared about Ellone more than his real son.

That's a rather baseless assumption seeing as 90% of the time we see Laguna in FFVIII he had yet to learn of his son's existence (or said son hadn't even been conceived yet).

[aeriolewinters]

Garnet or Rydia should be the resident summoner of team Cosmos;
With Garnet you already know that her summon skills can be done without animating the eidolons.

With Rydia you can do epic whip moves and combinations.

[Vicious108]

We already have a new FFIV entrant so I doubt Rydia has any chance of making it in.

And though I want Yuna as the Summoner, I wouldn't mind having Garnet either. Dat ass in Nomura's art and updated graphics sounds too promising to pass up on.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Dat ass in Nomura's art and updated graphics sounds too promising to pass up on.

You've just killed me.

Yeah i'm hoping for this to happen.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That's a rather baseless assumption seeing as 90% of the time we see Laguna in FFVIII he had yet to learn of his son's existence (or said son hadn't even been conceived yet).

Well all I know is that he traveled the world ins search for Ellone leaving behind his wife, but he never found a single day to go see his son.
I frankly find incredibly hard to believe that he never sent someone to Winhill to get some news from Raine and Ellone, in which case there's no way he wouldn't know about Squall. But let's suppose he never did, then that's even worse, it means he couldn't even think about sending... I don't know Kiros or Ward there to check on his wife. How could he simply go for seventeen years without any news from his wife? He must have known she died, I hope. And when the news of her death arrived no one mentioned that she had a son? That's simply unbelievable.


Also you forgot about the scene in the Lunar Gate, there he's clearly more worried for Ellone than for Squall, and at that time he already knew Squall was his son since he said that Ellone told him everything.

We have also never seen any particular reaction from Laguna when confronted with Squall, nor any particular concern for his safety and well being. Quite the opposite of what he shows for Ellone.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

You've just killed me.

Yeah i'm hoping for this to happen.

Exactly.

Vivi's more likely though as far as FFIX candidates are concerned, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well all I know is that he traveled the world ins search for Ellone leaving behind his wife, but he never found a single day to go see his son.
I frankly find incredibly hard to believe that he never sent someone to Winhill to get some news from Raine and Ellone, in which case there's no way he wouldn't know about Squall. But let's suppose he never did, then that's even worse, it means he couldn't even think about sending... I don't know Kiros or Ward there to check on his wife. How could he simply go for seventeen years without any news from his wife? He must have known she died, I hope. And when the news of her death arrived no one mentioned that she had a son? That's simply unbelievable.

1. He left behind his wife to go rescue a girl who was, for all intents and purposes, their daughter.

2. He never even knew said son existed. Raine didn't inform Laguna of her pregnancy before he left on his journey to save Ellone.

3. He couldn't find a day to go see them because when he finally found Ellone in Esthar, he also found himself caught up in the middle of a revolution with the intent of overthrowing of an evil witch's reign. Due to Laguna's tendency to help anyone in sight and not thinking things through, he ended up as the President of the nation itself. Now we're talking about a nation which had been ruled by cruel otherworldly witches who tried to spread dictatorship and militarism across the land for decades. It goes without saying that a lot of reforming was necessary, and thus Laguna decided to uphold a policy of absolute seclusion and neutrality in order to get things back in order and peace. Now I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like a lot of work, so give him a break, mkay.

Now, you have to keep in mind that Raine's death and Ellone (and Squall) being sent to the orphanage happened very shortly after Laguna rescue Ellone and sent her back to Winhill ahead of him. Ellone made it just in time to witness the baby being born and Raine dying of childbirth complications shortly after. Then she and the baby were sent to the orphanage, so when Laguna sent someone to Winhill to check on them it was already too late.

He says when you meet him as Squall and co. in Esthar that he also sent someone to the orphanage to get Ellone, but she'd already been taken by the White SeeD ship, whose location is always hidden. And if made an attempt to reach the orphanage to get back Ellone and ignored Squall, then it's obvious he hadn't been informed of his existence. You may find it unbelievable, but it makes sense considering Laguna was despised by the population of Winhill, both for being a soldier (he arrived during the Sorceress Wars and the village had been victim of many attacks) and for, as far as they knew, abandoning his wife and leaving her for dead for no good reason. It's not inconceivable that, assuming Laguna's emissaries spoke to anyone directly and didn't just go by word of mouth, that the existence of Raine's baby was withheld due to their contempt of Laguna, who they probably felt was not a deserving father and the baby was better off in an orphanage than with him.

So obviously he must've found time during those 17 years, but, as I've explained, when he did Raine was already dead, Ellone was already in the White SeeD ship which was impossible to be found and he wasn't aware of Squall's existence. Laguna says in Esthar that only when he finally reunited with Ellone in outer space did he learn of "everything", so it's safe to assume that he only learned about Squall shortly before meeting him personally.

Also you forgot about the scene in the Lunar Gate, there he's clearly more worried for Ellone than for Squall, and at that time he already knew Squall was his son since he said that Ellone told him everything.

1. He knew a boy named Squall was his son, yes, but how would he even recognize him and know what he looked like considering he'd never seen him before in his life? Ellone didn't have to describe his appearance and Laguna's memory and head in general aren't very good to begin with.

2. Squall is an elite mercenary belonging to a highly trained combat unit designed especially to deal with the Sorceresses. Ellone is a girl born with a gift that's more like a curse that can't defend herself. She was also the Sorceresses' objective and was in constant danger. Squall's mission from the start was to fight the Sorceress. So in the Lunar Gate, Laguna asks Squall to protect Ellone. Even assuming he was able to tell Squall was his son, which is doubtful, is that really so bad?

We have also never seen any particular reaction from Laguna when confronted with Squall, nor any particular concern for his safety and well being. Quite the opposite of what he shows for Ellone.

Again, Squall can defend himself. And he doesn't show any particular reaction because they were in the middle of a desperate world crisis and fight for survival against a nearly omnipotent witch. The family reunion could wait and it's obvious Laguna intended to act out on it, since he tells Squall in the Ragnarok "Ellone told me everything. We need to talk when this is all over."

[Jan-Poo]

I think you are the one that makes baseless speculations not me. I know the facts of FF8 pretty well, and you are imagining a lot of stuff that was never said in the actual game.

In the first place you can't even be sure that Laguna didn't know that Squall was his son until Ellone told him. It's been never said how Laguna knew the truth, but from the way Kiros, Ward and Laguna himself acted inside the Ragnarock really didn't give me the impression that they were talking about something that they just recently learned.

Unless you can prove me wrong with some facts, I think you should just accept that my impression is well justified. In the first place it's an impression and not a certainty.

[Vicious108]

Oh I see. Well if that's how it's gonna be, then go ahead and cover your ears and shout "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA! CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to your heart's content. But next time you don't have a counter argument, it's better not to post at all. My entire "baseless speculation" was written while looking directly at Laguna's lines in the game script. A game which I've done like 7 playthroughs of.

If you actually want to prove something here, then go ahead and point out clearly which parts of my post did I "imagine" and weren't obviously stated or heavily implied in the actual game and discernible to anyone with half-decent reading comprehension skills.

Now I shouldn't even bite at this, but about your interpretation of Laguna, Kiros and Ward's comments inside the Ragnarok... seriously?

"Ellone told me everything. We need to talk when this is all over."
"You look like your mother."
"Ward says it's a good thing you don't look like your father."

How exactly are you getting "didn't give the impression that they were talking about something that they just recently learned" from that? Even to the most fertile of imaginations there is no way any implications or connotations of that kind can be found in such statements.

And nope, it's not justified at all for those well informed on the backstory of Laguna and FFVIII in general. Sure there isn't a 100% certain and factual history of it, but if you fill in the small blanks with common sense and side information, then it all becomes pretty clear. And in this argument in question it really boils down to this:

Laguna in Esthar telling his life story (quoting directly from the game here): "Shortly after that, Raine died. And Ellone was sent straight to an orphanage. (...) I found out about this afterward, but... The reason why Ellone had to leave the orphanage was because of her special power. Doc Odine wanted to do research on Ellone's special power. He looked for her everywhere. The owners of the orphanage were Cid Kramer and his wife Edea. You know them better than I do. The Kramers took Elle out of the orphanage to protect her. They prepared a big ship to accomodate her."

Now if Doc Odine, an Esthar scientist directly under President Laguna's orders, looked everywhere for Ellone and learned from Cid and Edea Kramer that she'd been taken to the White SeeD ship, then it becomes rather obvious that Laguna himself was already aware of Raine's death and Ellone being taken to the orphanage and then to the ship before he met her. So he basically knew all that'd happened to her, only he couldn't find her because, quoting Edea directly:

"Those children are... They are very cautious. They would never remain in one place for long."

Goes without saying that even Esthar's ships would have trouble finding the White SeeD ship. Yet they finally did eventually, shortly before Squall and co. found it themselves. Now it was right after the White SeeD ship and the Esthar ship's rendezvous that Ellone and Laguna were finally reunited when she followed him into outer space. In regard to that, Laguna himself narrates as such:

"Ellone followed me out to space. Little Elle was all grown up... Then she told me everything."

Now since we've already established that Laguna had already been informed of Raine's death and Ellone's fate beforehand, what exactly could this everything encompass?

The answer is obvious: That Raine had had a baby in Laguna's absence and that he had been sent to the orphanage along with Ellone.

If you still refuse to see that because of your distorted perception of Laguna, then just look once again at Laguna's line towards Squall inside Ragnarok:

"Ellone told me everything. We need to talk when this is all over."

Now why exactly would he repeat the "Ellone told me everything." part when he'd already stated it previously when relaying the overall situation and mission to the party in Esthar and especially when they were there by themselves talking about clearly personal matters? Again, the answer is obvious: Laguna learned of his son's existence through Ellone. The only way that's not the only possible conclusion is if you absolutely refuse to look at the context.

tl;dr: Go ahead and cover your ears from the truth and keep believing in this jerkass Laguna that clearly exists only in your dreams.

And YES, obviously no version of these events can ever be 100% factual since there is no absolutely complete telling of them in the game's narrative itself, so you can hide behind that excuse if you want, but that is obviously implied from the start in an argument about a character's true nature that is discerned from filling in the gaps with what information is, in fact, available to us. Just because my "impression" might not be, again, 100% factual doesn't mean yours is just as valid, when mine is clearly much better informed and supported by information taken directly from the game that consequently does indeed consist of facts. And not "baseless speculation" or "imagination", which is really all your impression can claim to be.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think you are the one that makes baseless speculations not me. I know the facts of FF8 pretty well, and you are imagining a lot of stuff that was never said in the actual game.

In the first place you can't even be sure that Laguna didn't know that Squall was his son until Ellone told him. It's been never said how Laguna knew the truth, but from the way Kiros, Ward and Laguna himself acted inside the Ragnarock really didn't give me the impression that they were talking about something that they just recently learned.

Unless you can prove me wrong with some facts, I think you should just accept that my impression is well justified. In the first place it's an impression and not a certainty.

Methinks you may wanna rethink your position here...everything Endless Twilight just said was the truth. The asshole version of Laguna you've got up there in your head? He doesn't exist.

Gonna have to disagree with Endless Twilight's views on FFX-2 Yuna though. She's actually the same person she was in FFX, only she grew up a little and is roped into trying to have more fun by her cohorts (although "fun" for Yuna is actually just watching a sunset with Tidus, she actually says this in Last Mission).

[yezhanquan]

But, from what I know, this version of Laguna is his 27 year-old self, so he shouldn't know that he had a son. Probably, both will do a lot of things that fathers-sons should do and both get to tell the other that someday, he should do this with his own father/son.

[amjzz]

I wonder...why they called this game "final fantasy duodecim"?.

There is already a final fantasy 12.

[Shiroth]

A few details on the world map can be found here.

There's also news on a shocking character announcement for next month. I hope it is actually 'shocking'.